Hey micro,

I wasn't trying to bust your chops or anything. Just trying to clarify a sometimes confusing topic.

All I REALLY know is that you can group fish into two major groups. Those worth fishing for, and sewer cod. I'm sure we can both agree than steelhead fit in the first category.....whether you consider them a trout or a salmon.

Yup, That's what I said.. Just had to use the banana once.

A couple of thoughts from the Big One on this:

1) Virtually every premier steelhead river in the world is managed under what Washingtonians know as "selective rules": no bait, no barbs. I fish bait a fair amount, I do think it does give an adavantage under certain conditions. I also fish under selective fishery regs the majority of my wild steelhead trips. I could live with no bait, I won't say that I'll start a crusade for a ban, but it wouldn't break my heart seeing it either.

Why? I feel I try to be "responsible" in my bait usage. Fact is I don't fish summer-runs anymore in this state, so I don't run across the summer smolts as have been brought up in this thread, so that doesn't really apply to me. I don't fish stinger hooks or tiny hooks / baits that are easy taken deep by fish, both adults and little guys. And I NEVER run divers any more for steelhead ... frankly, I was sickened to see what happens to fish with them in my first few years of guiding. As effective as they could be under certain conditions, their usage was bad news for the fish.

And that's the very reason I could live with a ban. I see how many people use them during wild fish season and try to release fish hooked with them and I know all too well how many of those fish are hooked deep. I know the impact that the pocahing plunker crowd has with it. I could go on, but I won't

2) I would support a no removal from the water reg. I fish for kings that way in AK and the steelhead / rainbow regs are the same way there in most areas.

You can still get pic if you like ... simply kneel down and keep a portion of the fish in the water. You're not breaking the law and the fish will be handled better ...

Why?? Look through bulletin board pix and see how many release pictures are taken on board boats with the net on the floor. You know that fish came aboard and then was taken out, I see it on the water all the time.

I've handled tons of fish and watched thousands of other fish handled by folks over the years ... I know how often they slip out of your hand and by our "policy" (not really, but always our routine) of lways holding over the water, any one that does squirm and slip way lands in the water. I cringe when I think of how many fish have beat their heads on the boat bottom in these circumstances.

Frankly, I'd like to see tickets issued for poor handling of released fish. That's to be taken with a grain of salt ... it ought to be discetionary on the part of the warden. If he watches someone release a fish and it swims the wrong way up onto the rocks (yes, it does happen), someone ought not be ticketed. BUT if someone drags a fish ten feet up on the rocks, lets it flop around for 30 seconds and boots it back ... there ought to be a ticket.

A no removal from the water reg would probably take care of this one

PS ... a salmon is a salmon, a steelhead is a steelhead. They're NOT the same

One more thing for CF:

While we are the minority, we are always the ones that know the difference and the ones that will attend the meetings and give input. I don't think at this point we have to "sell anything" to the general public ... those that are involved get the changes made!

Now you made me tell one more lie tonight, becuase I had said I was out of this thread!

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I don't think at this point we have to "sell anything" to the general public ... those that are involved get the changes made! ======================

Involved at what level?

Bob
In an ideal world that is what should happen. But we don't live in that kind of a world anymore.

As you very well know, the governor "appoints" both the director and the members of the Wildlife commission. So how does that pay into what you have said?

P.S. the rest of your post was good, and I agree with you about divers!


Cowlitzfisherman

Okay ... I guess I worded it incorrectly. Yes, we have to "sell to the commission", but not the the fella that walks down to the river once a year ... you know, those that show up with a tackle box and their 9.99 Eagle Claw rod from Fred Meyers. They could, as a general rule, care less about the process!

Perhaps it's time to look at a different way to select our state board as well! But that's a whole 'nother subject

Bob
I couldn't agree with you more!


Cowlitzfisherman

Ahhhhh yes...I dont check in for an entire day and look what happens!!..

My question for micro is now that you know rainbow trout and juvenille steelhead are the same animal...how do you feel about those mortality studies that totally show the damage bait does??

Secondly, Bob brings up a good point about stinger hooks...lets use the Skykomish as an example again.

With the river becoming literally a sled parade whenever the conditions allow a sled to be taken up and down the river, the use of these stinger hooks have become very prevelant.

The vast majority of these sledders freedrift with the typical double size 4 and size 12 cheater and gob of eggs...the very vast majority of smolts the take this rig are going to end up floaters, bleeders etc. etc.

If we can not agree on a bait ban for the Sky during the summer...the VERY LEAST you can do, IF YOU CARE ABOUT OUR WILD STEELHEAD, is to eliminate the use of stinger hooks!!...it is too obvious, too easy to not!

Being that Bob is a guide and must get his clients into fish, it would be in Bob's best intrest (in the short-term atleast) to run bait divers...but he doesnt, he forgoes a deadly technique (pun intended) to protect the fish.

As I said before...sacrifice a little now OR everything later!!!

BAN STINGER HOOKS!! ...I would love to hear the sledder crowd's opinion on this one!

...plus I seriously think we do need to look into how the Commision members are chosen...that will be a good topic!

A question for Smalma...to what extent does the state law that requires a study to be performed if the state is going to bain bait etc.

Can the WDFW impose just a single hook rule without that study being performed or does even the passge of a single hook rule require that study?

Sparkey by stinger hooks you are referring to the typical double boondogging setup? I have used this setup for many years for regular driftfishing and hooked a number of smolts and nates...all released in very good condition. Don't see where bait or barbs would have made a difference? Also was introduced to this setup for boondogging just this last year with the same results. Sparkey you make a number of claims but I have to ask the question...do you have actual extensive personal experience with the double hook setup? Especially boondogging? If not then how can you even speak to it's effects?

BTW I'm personnally concerned about the "moron" reference made earlier. If I or anyone else disagrees with someones views should we be catergorized as MORONS?

Ryan-\
I believe the law was specific to banning bait.

I encourage you and others who have regulation ideas -regardless of what type- put them in the hopper for consideration of WDFW and Commission this year. It never hurts to get folks thinking about things.

Tight lines
Smalma

Sparkey a study would be required by SEPA when there is a finding that a regulation would have a Significant Effect on the environment. The recent 6 year Wildlife Plan by WDFW was required to undergo that process. If WDFW were to propose a long term Steelhead Management Plan they might be required to do an EIS for it. Not sure though and I'll bow to Smalmas knowledge on that issue.

Hey SPARK...ler quick Q for ya! Are you gonna regulate this new ban on stinger hooks? Or are the handful of gamies that we never see when we wished they were there?

I know and fish with micro quite a bit, lives just down the road from me, hes not all that bad people

What a coincidence ... imagine my surprise this morning when we'd just landed our second nice hen of the morning and as I reached down to pop our 2/0 single out of the corner of the jaw, this is what is in the fish's throat.

Before the season is done ... I'll probably see it a hundred times. Hooks so deep that they have to be cut off. Over 90 % will probably be dual, small hook rigs.

I do know for a fact that several guides that use these rigs never bother to try to get the hooks out ... rather they'll bring the fish to the side of the boat, grab the leader and then yank to break it loose.

Plain and simple in my book ... and perhaps it'll have to be law some day if folks can't see the light: don't use two-hooks rigs if you intend on releasing the wild steelhead you do catch!

Here is the point, How many of the "sport fisherman" out there are willing to change there "style" of fishing to better the survival rate of native species in our pristine waters of the pacific north west?
I would!
Would you?
The problem now is that fisherman out number the law, (gamewardens, park rangers) so greatly that there is nobody enforcing the rules as they stand right now, so why try and make new laws that us sportsman will abide but numerous fisherman will ignore?

food for thought -
My obserations have been that the best compliciance of regulations is through peer pressure. Remember how strong that force was in high school. We can either step up to the plate and demand the best regulations, set an example, and pressure those around us to likewise or stand around coming up with excuses for not doing the right thing, blame others and watch the resource continue to decline. Really our choice!

Tight lines
Smalma

Haven't been on lately...

...I'm sure I'm not really adding anything that hasn't already been rehashed to death, but I can't let it go.
Can't we put the nail in the coffin on a few items of "debate" (or de-bait)?


Beavis & Butthead Universal rules of Angling:

Steelhead are like, um, big rainbow trout (wasn't that from 4th grade science class?).

Killing little fish is...uhh... bad; you get fewer big fish that way!

The bigger your hook is and the more points it has the more damage it will do to, um, a part of a fish it like, runs into.

Lures, like, catch more,uh..., "little fish" than bait sometimes because some guys use little pointy things with three prongs on them instead of one.

If you put like, smelly stuff on your hook that the fish like to eat they will, like, swallow it sometimes.

If you want to be able to like, let the fish live longer when you catch it, don't use that smelly stuff they eat or any more than one of those little pointy things. And umm, make sure you don't have those other things by the point that make the fish, like, stick to the pointy thing.


Seriously, when people stop looking at common sense to justify what they are doing we're all in trouble. By the simple act of fishing, none of us is benign factor in the lives of fish.The only way we could be is to literally "de-hook" our lures. A hundred years ago you could use pitchforks and dynamite on 'em and no one would care; why is impossible to see that in the near future we may have to make the simple changes of going to single, barbless artificials if it will help save fish? And of course it will!


GS