had to see that one coming...the green has been dead all winter.

thanks for posting that update KB

Green river....dead.....that's kinda' funny.

Does anyone have the email address for Director Koenings? I would like to email him some questions about this decision. Questions like, how are they able to predict the amount of natives. Unlike hatchery fish, natives don't all center upon a single point like a hatchery. They'll spawn anywhere. How are they able to find, let alone count all the redds? I have fished the Green several times for natives and have never seen a game warden or fish checker or anyone asking how many fish are being caught. How is it possible to predict the amount of natives? The native run this winter seems to be better than the last 2 or 3 years put together yet they're closing it early. I would just like to know why.

Take the Snohomish system for example. Wasn't it about 6 or 7 years ago they made it C&R only through March? Now, the last 3 years they have closed it completely in March and yet they say the run is not improving. Obviously, if sportsmen aren't allowed to fish, they aren't the problem, so where does the problem lie? Do they just plan to close down all native fisheries at the end of February?

I read or heard somewhere that the department considers there to be somewhere around a 60 - 70% mortality rate on C&R fish. Obviously, this is not true, but if they do indeed have this idea, it's a lose/lose situation for the sportsmen. If sportsmen are catching a large amount of natives, a sign of a healthy run, they'll close the river to protect the fish from the realistically very small mortality percentage. Whereas if the sportsmen aren't catching very many, they'll close the river because obviously there aren't that many fish in the system and the few that are there need to be protected.

Gee low returns in the green... wonder if it has anything to do with 3 or 4 miles of nets strung across the river like a damn maze....

Jacob please do write him. He will sometimes respond I just got a letter back. Here is the E-mail director@dfw.wa.gov

That SUCKS! The Green has been putting out fish the last 2 weeks. With the river blown out probably the season is over till June.

Jacob if you get a response please post.

I would say that on a more likely basis you caught that 20lb on the green right?

I have caught some that where close to that size on the green in the last couple weeks

I fished the green yesterday evening.I didnt catch anything but did see a nice one take a jump right after my eggs had drifted by. Drove by the river today up by highway 18 and it is high and muddy worse than it was yesterday.If we dont get any rain maybe It will drop enough to fish before it closes at the end of the mounth.

Ok, here is a copy of my email to the director:


Dear Dr. Koenings:

As an avid sports fisherman, it saddened me greatly to learn you were planning to deprive sportsmen of the final two weeks for the catch and release fishery for native steelhead on the Green River. Before I just say you're making a wrong decision (I am leaning that way), I would like to learn what information you have and how you get it that leads you to smack the sportsmen of this state such a hard blow.

By normal standards, the native steelhead run in the Green River peaks around March/April. Yet, this year there seems to be an abundance of wild steelhead in the Green. As early as it is and as good as it is, it will only get better as more fish come in. What factors are you using to predetermine the run size? There is no "locks" or viewing window on the Green. Native steelhead don't arrive at a central point like a hatchery like the hatchery fish do, they'll spawn anywhere in the river. That would make it all but impossible to locate all but the most obvious redds. To this day, I have never seen a game warden or fish checker on the Green inquiring on how many fish are being released by sportsmen. With no eyes on the river, how are you making this decision?

Perhaps you are basing your predictions for the native run on the dismal hatchery run. I'm not a biologist, but everything I've read has lead me to believe that wild fish and hatchery fish have very little in common. You could have a great hatchery return and a low native return or a poor hatchery return and a great native return (as we are seeing this year).

Take the Snohomish system for example. Wasn't it about 6 or 7 years ago the department made it C&R only through March? Now, the last 3 years you have closed it completely in March and yet they say the run is not improving. Obviously, if sportsmen aren't allowed to fish, they aren't the problem, so where does the problem lie? Do you just plan to close down all native fisheries at the end of February?

I read or heard somewhere that the department considers there to be somewhere around a 60 - 70% mortality rate on released fish. Obviously, this is not true, as any sportsman will tell you, but if the department does indeed have this idea, it's a lose/lose situation for the sportsmen. If sportsmen are catching a large amount of natives, a sign of a healthy run, you'll close the river to protect the fish from the realistically very small mortality percentage. Whereas if the sportsmen aren't catching very many, you'll close the river because obviously there aren't that many fish in the system and the few that are there need to be protected.

I am writing this letter out of anger and frustration because every year, it seems the sportsmen lose more and more opportunity. It's easy for the department to make the unsubstantiated claim that the run is too small, but when all realistic evidence indicates otherwise, it makes me really question the leadership of the department. What changes are you enacting to rehabilitate these fish so that in the future sportsmen will be able catch and release fish through <gasp> the end of March? The way the trend is going, it appears that in two or three years, rivers will be closing to us on February 15th, and a few years after that on Jan 31. This trend can't continue.

I look forward to your response,

JacobF, Nice letter. I know it had to be hard to keep it professional, I think it does and still sends a pretty clear/strong message. I agree with your comments, please post if you get a response back. Thx

My understanding is that the state uses redd counts to estimate run size. They take the redd count from the parents of this year's returning fish, and then take into consideration the conditions and events that may have influenced survival. Redd counts are done on foot, by boat, and by plane, depending on the stream. That's just what I've picked up from reading this, and other, internet boards. There are a few guys on this board who know a lot about fisheries management and can answer your questions in a lot more detail than I have. Maybe one of them will add something here.

Jacob,

Well stated. Your point on how they collect data may be valid. I believe you have a strong case the way you laid it out. It will be interesting to see how they substantiate the truth on measure/counting steelhead numbers on the Green River in particular. I believe it's possible that many times, a rivers proximity to the metro area(s) is(has now become) a secondary if not primary reason for some of the early closures. -Maybe a sort of a biased general feeling in the dept. that either too many people would show up and fish C&R(-or could potentially abuse it's privileges) and in turn effect the survival rate. -Or maybe they feel that city disturbances and suburbia sprall/growth cause enough problems in steelhead survival now and adding fishermen to the mix would only serve to compound the problem to native fisheries. If any of these were the case it would be a sorry story. It would be interesting to see what their long-range forcasts and models predict for future local King County steelhead watersheds numbers and the rules/regs for fishing might be as a result.... Thanks for being a concerned fisherman citizen and taking action. Hopefully they will do us all a favor and provide you with a response. Keep us posted!!
Good Fishing, DB

Jacob,

WDFW forecasts the native (wild) steelhead run size for the Green River using spawning survey data (redd counts from helicopter flights over the river about every 2 weeks during the spawning period) and running it through a spawner/recruit formula that forecasts an estimate of the number of 2-salt, 3-salt, and respawners that will return each year. The estimated run size has to exceed the spawning escapement goal in order for there to be a harvest fishery allowed on wild steelhead. The run size forecast has to be at least 80% of the escapement goal in order to permit a CNR fishery on wild steelhead. WDFW estimates CNR mortality on steelhead at 10% or less. Mortality could certainly be lower, but refer to the thread that mentions all the improper handling of fish to be released by recreational anglers.

In addition to pre-season forecasts, run sizes can sometimes be updated in season from catch and effort data provided a good relational database exists. I don't think WDFW has any inseason updating formulas for wild steelhead runs.

The upshot is that WDFW either has to prioritize conservation of wild steelhead or not. I hate to see fishing opportunity reduced, but what reasonable choices are there? If the run size is less than the escapement goal, then any fishing on that run will not increase the spawning escapement. Providing fishing opportunity comes only at the expense of escapement.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey Salmo,

Are you sure you really know what the mandate, and legislative findings and intent are when it comes to the loss of our recreational opportunity?

Cowlitzfisherman

If they make their estimates based on the redds from 3 years ago, why don't they set the season accordingly? The Green was to close on March 15th. Obviously, something recent has had to happen to get them to change this. They knew what the redd count was when they set the date for March 15th.

Looks like cfm found a few new words, mandate, intent, findings. Way to go.

ok this just sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
march through may ya right !
will see if they open it in june .

CFM,

No.

Jacob,

Redd counts from 4 and 5 years ago went into the forecast for the wild steelhead run size. A run size forecast should have been available pre-season, before December. If the forecasted run size was less than the spawning escapement goal, the steelhead fishing season was based on the availability of hatchery steelhead and a minimal impact on the wild run. That's known as a compromise. WDFW usually allows a run that is forecast to be less than its escapement goal to be made somewhat smaller due to "incidental" harvest during a fishery for another species or stock for which there are harvestable numbers. The pre-season forecast for hatchery steelhead probably predicted harvestable fish to be present - I don't know that, but you can verify it by calling WDFW, Mill Creek, 425/774-8812, and asking to speak with the steelhead harvest management biologist. As we now know, the hatchery steelhead run is a bust, with few hatchery returns, harvestable or otherwise. Therefore, the only reason to allow continued fishing in the Green River would be to allow angling opportunity at the cost of further reducing this year's spawning escapement, which is already predicted to be less than the escapement goal. Is that what you want?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo G-

Like many others, I too appreciate the time you spend writing responses to questions and thoughts that are brought up on this BB.

I would like to counterpoint this statement of your last post: "Therefore, the only reason to allow continued fishing in the Green River would be to allow angling opportunity at the cost of further reducing this year's spawning escapement, which is already predicted to be less than the escapement goal. Is that what you want?"

Too many times I have heard this argument come forth used as an un-challengable trump card. Supposing that the river remains open to angling with artificial lures/flies only (no bait) it is pretty logical to assume a total catch of 10% of the returning population. If this year's run were to be 1000 adults, that would make a total catch of 100 fish. Normal mortality under the aforementioned rules would be NO higher than 5% of the angled fish making a total incidental kill of 5. How could this possibly impact the Green's, or any river's, spawning population? This is where I get confused over the closures. Why not take the approach of limiting our effectiveness at catching the fish with tackle that is scientifically proven to be less damaging? But, that is not the way of WDFW and the POLITICS surrounding wild steelhead.

One last thought- By closing these rivers to all LEGAL fishing, does it not put these depressed populations at more risk of illegal harvest by allowing the poacher to execute his crime under zero surveillance from anglers?

William

Another interesting question; will the clubs in the area be holding their annual broodstock collecting program after the season ends. Can anyone supply data on the success of this program? Is this program really adding any value to the wild stock on the Green? Can someone fill me in?