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#194540 - 04/15/03 08:04 PM No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
I couldn't resist this non-fishing post...sorry..



Tony Parsons is a British Journalist. - This appeared in a London newspaper recently.
Mar 17 2003 by Tony Parsons

I HOPE that the continent of Europe never again needs help from the United States of America.

I hope that there's never some murderous little tyrant - another Hitler, another Milosevic - that Europe needs help in taming.

I hope that there's never some economic catastrophe that requires American dollars to make it right, as they did at the end of the Second World War.

I hope that the euro experiment works. I hope that all those peace-loving souls in Belgium, Germany and France can somehow muster an army to protect themselves.

I hope that the continent I live on never again needs to go cap in hand to the Americans.

Because if that black day ever comes, I have the feeling that America might just tell Europe where to go.

On the eve of war, there is a tangible anger in America. But surprisingly little of it is directed against the Iraqis. It is the French who are detested.

"This is all about oil," the Brits hear all the time. And Americans think it is "all about oil" too. The $50billion worth of oil contracts that France has with Iraq. In American eyes, that is why the French are so keen to avoid war.

Anti-French feeling in the United Kingdom is never more than a passing fancy, a jokey bit of "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter.

Not in America.

THE cafeteria in the House of Representatives no longer serves French fries - chips to you and me, guvnor. Now they sell something called "freedom fries". That sounds nuts - and of course it is.

But when a furious Congresswoman presents a "bring home our dead" bill demanding that the 75,000 American men and boys who died in France during two world wars be dug up and brought home, you realise that this is more than "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter.

Congresswoman Ginny Brown-Waite says, "The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not in a country that has turned its back on the US and on the memory of Americans who fought and died there."

That's the difference between the British and the Americans.

We do not feel that the British casualties in two world wars died to liberate the French. We believe that we were fighting for our nation's survival. Just like the Russians.

It is different for Americans.

Throughout the 20th century, through two world wars and one Cold War, America gave all the blood and money Europe needed to keep it free.

They feel that the current crisis has proved that Europeans are, when all is said and done, an ungrateful bunch of Euro *******s who do not give a flying baguette about the 75,000 American graves in Europe.

Anti-European feeling goes right across the board of public opinion, even among the millions of Americans who are passionately against attacking Iraq. America is united in feeling betrayed by Europe. America is finally starting to understand that - to Europe's eternal shame - there is an
opinion that 9/11 was America's comeuppance.

Secretaries and waiters leaping from the top of the burning twin towers?
The fault of American arrogance.

A terrified four-year-old girl cowering at the back of a hijacked plane?
Blame it on America's support for Israel. A stewardess with her throat slit by a carpet cutter? One in the eye for American imperialism.

Those 3,000 dead, murdered on live television? Europe blames America.

When 9/11 happened, you might have expected to see Palestinians dancing in the street. But who would have expected the grim look of satisfaction on the faces of old Europe?

But the British are absolved of Europe's sins. Those who are against the war admire Britain because we had a peace march where one million people filled the streets.

Those for the war admire Britain because Tony Blair has been a true friend to America. And although the man on the M25 might make jibes about Blair being a "poodle", among American hawks our Prime Minister is seen as dangerously strong-willed.

THERE is a school of opinion in America that believes the war could have been over by last Christmas if Tony Blair had not been so keen on proceeding through the correct diplomatic channels. Nobody calls Tony Blair a poodle in the USA.

It has been good to be British in America these past few weeks

For America has been reminded that Britain is the best friend it has in the world, joined by blood, language, history, instinct and culture.

When will the British wake up from their pathetic little dreams of being Europeans and realise that we have been looking for our future in all the wrong places?

Who wants to be European today? Who wants to be an ungrateful, unprincipled, two-faced, pacifist, Euro-grasping, oil-hungry Lilliputian?

No matter what happens over the coming days and weeks, it is true what they say. The English Channel is far wider than the Atlantic.
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#194541 - 04/15/03 09:29 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
larryb Offline
The Rainman

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 2347
Loc: elma washington
right on tony blair for president
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#194542 - 04/15/03 09:45 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
starcraft tom Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 429
Loc: marysville
Some of the brits are right on. When the queen ordered the playing of our national anthem at the chaging of the guard on sept 12. I knew they was a women with class. sound like a little thing but its not. the changing of the guard is unchanged for the last 200 yrs.
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#194543 - 04/16/03 07:05 AM Re: No Thanks to Europe
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Damn, feels good to be American. Sometimes lonely out front. Thanks, Grandpa! beer
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#194544 - 04/16/03 08:07 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
Geez I expected atleast one of the anti-Americans to chime in on this one...
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#194545 - 04/16/03 09:04 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
Dont be fooled by one measly little editorial.

The British people were overwhelmingly in favor of pursuing a diplomatic resolution. But, as any country should they have rallied around their troops in time of war.

Now, the polls suggest the Brits are evenly divided in terms of supporting thew ongoing war effort.

Seems the English channel is not quite as wide as this editorialist would suggest, put in that context.

IMO, grampy...its attitudes like yours that are antia-merican. There just isn't room for any opinion other than yours or the current party line, is there?

I called you out on this before and you ran away...so I will do it again.

You continually intimate that one cannot have been opposed to going to war on the one hand and 'support the troops' on the other. Support that position with a valid argument, would you?

Oh...and while yer scratchin' yer head on that one, you might try composing a valid argument as to why such opposition is 'unamerican'. No ones done that here. No one has dragged the United States throught the mud here, at least that I've seen. All those that have differing opinions have done is question the actions of our government in this case. BTW, please quote the statement or statements that you view as'unamerican'.

The minute we stop doing that is the minute we lose our freedom....how 'American' would that be?

Its one thing to disagree with someone, to have differing views is the nature of freedom, is it not? But the suggestion that under any circumstances any citizen of the United States is 'unamerican' strictly because they disagree with you gave me a sorely needed laugh this afternoon.
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#194546 - 04/16/03 10:47 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
I had a feeling this would bring out the usual suspect....With the usual response....hahahaha

That's me laughing at you.... sleep
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#194547 - 04/16/03 11:02 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
This is me, watching you run....

banana
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#194548 - 04/17/03 02:03 AM Re: No Thanks to Europe
skydriftin Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 306
Loc: everett,wa
Grandpa, while I'm not in favor of that thing we did in iraq, you better never call me antiAmerican to my face

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#194549 - 04/17/03 09:40 AM Re: No Thanks to Europe
Pmartin Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 905
I like it laugh

Too bad there are so many that keep crying wolf. You get to a point that you just don't hear them anymore no matter how much crying they do!!! beathead cry cry cry


Q: How many Democrats does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: It's irrelevant; they still don't know they're in the dark! wink
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#194550 - 04/17/03 09:50 AM Re: No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
I suppose Anti-American is not the best description .... Any simple moniker for a set of beliefs isn't fair. So I apologize for the implications that the emotive phrase, "anti-American" stirs up. There is really no question that an individual can have any viewpoint on any subject and express it and still be an American. I guess it is predictable, however, who is going to be against virtually anything and everything that the Bush administration does. Try as you must to convince others that you are really not the way you are, you still come across as almost desperately bitter that a liberal Democrat is not in control.

Don't lose faith though since you are in the Seattle area and there are tons of people here that share your views. Unfortunately, nationwide you are outnumbered by an enormous margin. And , by the way, I don't think my opinions are "right" or the only logical ideas. I just think your ideas are off the mark and out of the mainstream...That doesn't make you anti-American necessarily but in my book it makes you wrong most of the time.
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#194551 - 04/17/03 07:04 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
Skywalker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 578
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
You know, I was fine with your original post. Made me feel good. Gave me goosebumps, even. I personally wanted to see either more proof of wmd or proof of terrorist activity if we were going to use those as our justification for going to war, but I also felt like you can't just go around starting wars and saying it's because you don't like the other guy (Sadaam), so you gotta come up with something that makes better sense. I like the fact that we've kicked his @ss, but I'd have preferred that we do it without making such a mess.

Anyway, you put up that first post, all is well, and then you say something asinine like:

"Geez I expected atleast one of the anti-Americans to chime in on this one..."

Nothing but cheap forum trolling, if you ask me. Did you really post that article because you thought it needed to be shared, or did you post it because you felt like starting another off-topic slamfest?

Geez, I never thought I'd have to tell someone that calls himself "Grandpa" to grow up. Not that there's any chance of it helping.

rolleyes

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#194552 - 04/17/03 08:01 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
So I apologized already for using the "emotive" term. I posted the article which was sent to me by someone else because I thought it was interesting and I also figured a "slamfest" might occur as it always does if someone dares to post something "right wing" or "christian".....I guess I should have kept what I perceived as the inevitable to myself......If growing up means not offending people I guess I'll never make it. If growing up means agreeing with left wing ideas then I won't grow up soon. If growing up means choosing words more carefully so as not to enflame people then I may make some progress.
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#194553 - 04/17/03 08:33 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
grandpa-

Respectfully, I think you are the one who gets offended when I post counterpoints on the political issues you raise. I'm trying to learn to do so within the scope of reason...compared to times passed I think I'm doing a better job.

I took no offense at your original post, I just responded.

I appreciate your willingness to come back and reexamine your position as it pertains to what is 'unamerican' and what is not.

I'm curious...what specifically in my response to your post did you view as a 'slamfest'?

To disagree is a slam?

confused
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#194554 - 04/17/03 10:41 PM Re: No Thanks to Europe
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1843
Loc: brier,wa
I don't think your responses are a "slamfest"..that was"Skywalker's" term that I picked up on....political jabbing back and forth is not slamming in my opinion...we both get passionate sometimes and maybe recoil from the other person's point of view. Trust me, I don't want to take this to any personal level at all. We don't know each other personally and that is a missing link that could temper some of the overzelous comments. It is hard for outspoken people to remain silent for fear of offending or unduly irritating someone else. I hope we both can step back from time to time and see the passion in the other person's views despite our opposition to them.

We all seem to share a common bond of love for our sport. We can disagree on how to pursue and protect our sport without being personal enemies I hope. We should be able to do the same with the hot button issues as well. Thank you for your indulgence.
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#194555 - 04/18/03 11:33 AM Re: No Thanks to Europe
Skywalker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 578
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
It wasn't the topic or the opinions you shared that prompted me to respond, it was the obvious troll in your second post.

I guess as long as Bob doesn't have a problem with it I shouldn't worry about it myself....I just have a poor tolerance for goading. I suppose it's because I see my kids (8 and 12) pulling that stuff on each other occasionally when they get bored and it annoys the cr@p outta me then too. flog

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