Sunday May 18th at 4pm is the Washington Trout Auction to raise more money to start some more lawsuits and close hatcheries. Maybe we should organize a protest march at the venue in Issaquah? Complete with signs?

that could be a good idea if it is done in the right way.

I'll bring it up at our chapter board meeting next week.

Well I ceratainly don't want to provoke anything, but I have to ask grandpa, Do you plan on harrasing any of the attendees as they try to go in to support an organization whose principles they believe in? Will you follow any of them home? Do you plan on doing anything to their cars?

Will you harass our keynote speaker, Dr Bern Shanks, former Director of WDFW who was railroaded out of his job by commercial fishing interests because he dared to consider changes to harvest and hatchery practices?


This is America. I support your right to your opinion and your right to make it known. I hope in your campaign you will strive to be honest, and to actually learn the facts before you address them. I hope you will attempt to make sure that you aren't misrepresenting WT or attacking good people for things they are not doing. I hope things won't get too extreme.

It is apparently convenient for you to decide that I am a liar. Given that, I would at least hope that you will attempt to find out what Washington Trout does, on all sorts of fronts, before you decide that my alleged deception just confirms the suspicions you have developed. You have expressed things on this board about WT that are baseless and untrue. But please, don't take that on my word, which is apparently useless to you. Please research the facts yourself; then base your accusations on those.

I hope that you will allow the principled people who believe in and support WT's mission and positions to enjoy their evening. Most of them are sportfishers just like you, who happen to have a different opinion than you do how wild-fish resources should be managed. I hope that while you do what you believe in, you won't infringe on their right to do exactly the same.

Ramon Vanden Brulle
Washington Trout

Ramon,

no one said anything about harrassing people or vandalizing cars.

of course you have the right to voice your opinion, just like the rest of us do. so dont expect WT's claims to go unchallenged at the meeting.

Actually metalhead, grandpa mentioned all that stuff, regarding what I might be prepared to do to achieve my "hidden agenda" (which I'm still waiting to hear defined). I don't believe I've ever given anyone ANY hint of a reason to accuse me of those things. But he wants to disrupt our party, and I just hope it doesn't get out of hand.

I don't know what "meeting" you're talking about. We're going to have dinner, probably a little wine. We're gong to listen to a speech by Bern Shanks (I thought he was a bit of a hero to WA sportfishers). We'll auction off items to raise money. The people coming are hoping to have a good time and support WT because they believe in it. It's a night I know many of them look forward to every year. They are good people who share a set of principled beliefs. None of them are trying to give anybody the shaft, grandpa's delusional world view notwithstanding.

Some of the money we raised at the 2002 auction supported our efforts to curtail the 2003 spring-chinook commercial fishery on the Lower Columbia. The by-catch of steelhead in that fishery in 2002 was 20,000 steelehead, with a mortality of almost 50%. In 2003, thantks to the work of WT and others, the bycatch of steelhead from that fishery was in the hundreds of fish. Some of the money went to forcing timber companys to leave trees in floodplains so rivers have room to meander and change channels, in other words function like rivers that can support healthy populations of salmon and steelhead. Some of the money went to restore salmon and steelhead habitats in the Snohomish, Stillaguamish, and Washougal watersheds. Some of it went in to valuable field research throughout the state that influences policies to protect native fish habitas and poulations.

And yes, some of it went into challenging current hatchery practices. We are suing to challenge those practices. We believe that if those practices can't or won't be improved, then the hatcheries should be closed. There IS a difference between that and just saying hatcheries should be closed. I'll ask again: do you believe those practices can be improved without closing the hatcheries? I have said here and elsewhere that WT is skeptical, but if WDFW thinks they can be, then they should propose and implement those changes, and quit just talking about them without even naming them. WDFW talks about the HSRG process, but I cannot find any of the HSRG recommendations incorporated into WDFW's proposed hatchery plans.

Ours is not an extreme position. It is well within the mainstream of current scientific opinion. It is shared by the BPA Independent Scientific Review Board, the NMFS Salmon Recovery Science Review Panel, the National Research Council, and literally scores of independent researchers.

But be all that as it may, I concede that many reasonable people will continue to disagree with WT's position and actions regarding hatcheries. I'm just asking for a little reason, a little less emotion, and a little more attention to the truth. If you feel you must come and demonstrate your beliefs at our party (which you're invited to if you want to pay the $55), I just hope you'll do it honestly, and that you'll care to do it civilly, without trying to ruin anyone's evening. And once again, I would hope that everyone would consider EVERYTHING WT does before they decide what they think they must do.

I don't Know why that should sound unreasonable or deceptive.

Ramon Vanden Brulle,
Washington Trout

Ramone,
Why don't you cordially invite the WDFW, Puget Sound Anglers, and other fishing organizations to sit down at the table and take a look at teaming up with some of them. Try to come up with better solutions than lawsuits. Taking WDFW money away to fight off your lawsuit is a huge misdirection of funds for Washington State fish. You would have a lot better chance of making a difference that way. Take another shot at banning the nets. I saw the netters out in Neah Bay this last Friday. They took a bunch of Springers/Blackmouth according to the fish checker that checked them in. Fish don't spawn if they can't get home. If fish could return home, maybe hatcheries could start to withdraw and not be needed. But an all out stoppage of hatcheries could be devastating. I know a lot of people do not like the WDFW, but working within to change works better than fighting against. We, as Puget Sound Anglers, have learned and redirected to try and work within the system to make a difference. It takes time and a lot of work we have found out. We got a bad name with the "ban the nets" campaign and the way it was approached. Had it been run differently it might have had better results. I personally do not care for most of the WDFW commissioners. The commission is needed, but the one in place is broken and has gone far astray in favor of commercial fishing with Will Roehl leading the way (ex commercial fisherman). I think a redirection is of Washington Trout is needed.
.

Ramon

OK now you have replied to me even though you vowed never again to do so. Let’s say we’re even now since you are implying that a peaceful protest of WT would turn to violence. In your post you did imply that I would personally commit illegal acts. I never accused YOU of any of the civil disobedience references in previous posts. I merely tried to paint a word picture of how causes that sound so noble can get out of hand when the followers resort to extreme measures. You chose to be paranoid and drag it on and on and on that I was accusing you of awful things. Not so. Lots of what you say is not so.

Furthermore, I am far from delusional. That is another tacky personal slam by you. I am outspoken. I am opinionated. I am conservative. I am passionate. I am a fisherman.
By the way are you? Where do you fish? Why types of fishing do you like best? I have similar opinions when it comes to opposing the Washington Trout lawsuits to about 70% of the people in the fishing community. We simply oppose your movement as an organization towards extremes measures to advance your agenda. I honestly and truly believe that your agenda has less to do with fishing than you imply and more to do with environmental activism which includes fish issues.

As complicated as you may want the opposition to be, it is quite simple. We oppose WT’s extreme agenda to close hatcheries and we especially oppose the lawsuits you file to get your way. We all know that the process of reform is slow and not acceptable but so many groups are working within the system while your group stands on the outside alienating all of us. Your membership and sponsors most likely don’t know your opposition’s position on the lawsuit. They probably, for the most part, applaud the lawsuits as getting one over on an authority figure,WDFW. I suspect most of your members are environmentally concerned and contribute based on the association of WT with the environment more so than fishing.

A protest of your auction sounded less extreme to me than your lawsuit. Peaceful and legal protests are the backbone of the left wing you so proudly ascribe your loyalty to. When the opposition wants to protest, lookout…Oh that’s not fair! We just want to sip our wine and listen to Bern Shanks…Not so simple Ramon. You are raising money for your war chest to file more lawsuits. We aren’t raising any money to oppose you and your extreme tactics but we can protest them. Peacefully and legally.

The issue seems really simple. Is it worth shutting down the hatcheries to perhaps improve the wild fish runs? Emphasis on "perhaps." WT feels that we should be willing to pay the sacrifice (giving up our hatchery fish) to find out.

I don't.

Good luck on the demonstration up there.

GREAT Idea Grandpa,
I have plans for the 18th but I might have to cut them short so I can be there. By Ramon's reply it sounds like he's worried. And with a protest going on maybe the cops will be there and can catch some of the wine sippers getting into there cars after there party. (think DWI)

So Ramon come out from under your bed...the boogey men aren't outside waiting for you. We are peaceful protestors looking only to expose you. Did your mom every read you the book "The Emperor's New Clothes"? If not please go to the library and check out a copy. You are the emperor, in my opinion.

Didn't WT sue WDFW because they refused to see it your way? Isn't a lawsuit pretty extreme. Isn't a lawsuit more extreme than a peaceful protest? Nowadays everyone sues everyone for some pretty lame reasons but mostly to get money for the plaintiffs and the LAWYERS...People of all walks of life protest every day,too. Which is more honorable?

I understand that WT has been haggling over how much cash WDFW has to give you so you will go away AGAIN and not about hatcheries or any of your other causes. Deliberations have been underway for some time as to the size of your prize. You sound like mercenaries to me. Shameless opportunists.

I hope hundreds of protestors show up at your "party" and peacefully protest WT. I am sure there are sign makers busy right now dreaming up clever slogans.

Will Sue For Food???

That sounds like a liberal guncontrol argument, screw ya a little bit at a time. Well I for one and not wearing a dress and will try my ass off to be up there protestin with you guys if you get it going. WT's goal is to have a bunch of yuppies with spey rods out there chasing 8 in trout. Salmon fisherman, come in all forms but, fortunately the majority of us aren't elitist *****s. So by getting us Outsiders off the river they can have the wonderful rivers all to themselves.

Im am in! Please email odr PM me the particulars..
If in fact this is a go and gets organized, we may be able to distribute this to many organizations that really opposed WT endorsement of HSUS/PAC in I-713 Which in turn has cost many, many dollars.

Standing BY..........

Boy, If I had to design an intelligence test, I'd think I'd start with the question, "Let's say here's a group that supports restoration of fish runs, but not in exactly the same way that you do, and lets say that they are more effective in bringing in the big money than you you are. Should you attack them and alienate them, or try to work with them?"

Whether you guys realize it or not, WT is much more effective than you are in reaching the powers that be, and in extracting money from those that have it. That means that they are politically more effective than you are. Would it not make sense to buddy up with them and see what can be worked out? Or would you rather render the sportfishing community into a bunch of splinter groups with less than 5000 votes each, which the politicians can easily ignore?

The dialogue I have seen here demonizing WT is better than PETA demonizing fishing. For crying out loud, this is a group that is trying to restore fish runs! They are on our side! We disagree about tactics, but we agree about goals. Why are you shooting your own troops?

silver hilton,

did you just offer aid and comfort???

dont forget, PETA also wants their own way to restore the fish runs, but you wont see me singing kumbaya with them anytime soon

They have already buddied up with HSUS, maybe WT will choose PeTA next time..

Grandpa,

Unfortunatley for me, as a representative of WT I have no choice but to respond when people purposely misrepresent WT and its mission. Believe that I am sincere when I say I would prefer not to engage you directly, as I have come to have no respect for your arguments or tactics.

Unless someone at WDFW is acting with a complete lack of ethics (which I do not believe), then it is impossible for you to have any idea what is going on iside the rooms where WT and WDFW are attempting to negotiate a settelement to our case. That gives you no basis for characterizing those negotiations. Further, your wild guess about what is going on is absolutely wrong. I, along with anyone else in those rooms, am bound by ethics (do you know what those are?) not to disclose exactly what negotiations are taking place, but I can say that when it is over, you will be shown to be wrong, if not a liar. If the negotiations are successful in reaching a settlement, you and everyone else will see that WT negotiated for the best interest of the fish, and you will all be able to judge how extreme WT's final position turned out to be.

I simply painted the same word picture you did. So I guess we are even. And we will see how your peaceful demonstration goes. Everybody on this board has continually demonstrated their commitment to reason, honesty, and good manners, so I'm sure that my concerns were completely unfounded.

Please allow me to thank everyone for considering the substance of my last post. I did not question your right to do what you think you must, I tried to appeal to your sense of fair play and honesty. Thak you again for taking it to heart.

Ramon Vanden Brulle
Washington Trout

I can't take this anymore a couple of things that people seem to miss:

1) WT has never ever as long as I have known them to claim to be a Fishing organization. They are a environmental organization and have never claimed any differetn. So let go of the this is not a fishing group but an environmential group. They don't claim any different.
2) The lawsuit is only a part of what they do. Stream studies and restoration is also part of what they do and where their money goes so I guess by opposing WT completely you oppose everything they do you don't believe in these either.
3) You can disagree with what they are doing but no one should question what they want. To give Wild fish the best chance to survive and thrive through alll methods. So it sounds like a lot of you don't want this if it hurts you ablity to wack a fish on the head. I for one would never kill an other steelhead if it gave wild fish a better chance of survival.
4) Sometimes for a compromise to occur you have to start at an extreme and work from there for real change.
5) WT i beleive worked with the WDFW for over 2 years, I believe, before they filed suit. So please stop saying that they just jumped in an filed suit without sitting down with the WDFW at the table. They did.

Everyone points fingers else where and it is always someone else's fault well guess what it a combination of everything. You fail to recognize that WT isn't just going after hatcheries but helping with habiitat and harvest and Hydro. They are taking a bigger picture to look at here.

I for one will be there to support WT. As a wise man once said, "He who I agree with 70% of the time is not my enemy."

Flame Away
JJ

I believe it was Patrick Henry who once said, we must all hang together, or we will all hang separately.

Sounds like a good turnout for the protest. Has anyone thought of trying to get the local media there to cover it?

I am sure that a group of angry fishermen marching and chanting against a respected environmental organization's dinner and auction would play really well with the viewing public. Of course you must remember that the majority of the public doesn't fish so it might be somewhat difficult to convince them that a group sueing to protect wild fish are in the wrong.

And of course you need to be careful not to come off looking bad and actually causing WT to get more donations from the a suddenly wider audience. In fact, I bet WT is not all opposed to the protest. After all, any publicity is good publicity. (I suppose unless your Mike Price that is) Either way, I am sure you have thought all this though.

Good luck!