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#196595 - 05/09/03 08:57 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
steelheadpimpjuice Offline
Fry

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 27
Loc: Boistfort Valley
Good comments glow ball I agree. Everyone keeps jumping around talking about bear and then cougar. These animals have different instincts. First of all I have hunted bears for years. When ever I have encountered a bear the instant they smell you they head on a dead sprint the opposite way. dont forget Grizzleys and black bears are much different from one another. Obviously Alaska has a ton more bears than we do if you have ever been there. I dont think statistics need to be involved in this conversation. A person will be lucky to ever see a cougar in his/her life. The dude about the wolves your an absolute idiot!! Lets remember where we live and what we love and that is fish and wildlife so if you dont like it dont fish in the wilderness. I would recommend to move to California if you dont want to see bears or cougs

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#196596 - 05/09/03 09:35 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2090
Loc: Fishtropolis
I've had cougars trail me on the river...

I went back to fish again a stretch I had fished earlier one morning to find fresh kitty prints in my footsteps...

One time I was fishing a relatively remote OP stream in the snow, followed my own foot prints back and found fresh kitty prints. Did I mention how dark it was? Yikes that was long walk/power walk back to my rig...

If you want to carry a sidearm to the river that's your right and I wouldn't take that away from anyone.

I think it would be wise though to REALLY think about why you are taking it to the river and consider if its really necessary.

I've have never heard of anyone successfully defending against a cougar attack with a gun...never. Who but hunters and fishermen put themselves any deeper in cougar country...

I do know this with some measure of certainty as it has been related to me by great grandfather, a logger, woodsman and avid hunter of deer, elk and cougar on the OP during a time when nearly the only pressure was by locals....

...cougar attacks are defended best by using your arms to protect your neck, not reach for your gun. Usually by the time you are able to reach for your gun the cougar is hightailing it out of there...

The ONE place my great grandfather never took his gun was the river...

Surprisingly, I'm not a real big anti-gun guy either. I wouldn't be so looking forward to firing my father-in-law's Kalashnikov this weekend if I were....I just can't think of a reason why anyone would feel the need to have a firearm on the river. I'm not a prude about it though...if a guy feels like he has to carry a gun in my boat then I'm ok with that....expect me to ask why though.
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#196597 - 05/09/03 10:01 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
racerdan Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 132
Loc: longview
Quote:
I would recommend to move to California if you dont want to see bears or cougs
Just to clarify, California has an abundance of cougar in fact there have been fatal attacks by cougar in the state.
_________________________
If that fish would have kept his mouth shut, you wouldnt be eating it.

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#196598 - 05/09/03 10:36 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Fair hooker Offline
Fry

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 30
Fact of the matter is cougars benefit human safety. In the last century there has been one fatal cougar attach in Washington, zero in Oregon. Many people have died by hitting, or attempting to avoid deer and elk on highways. Cougars control large ungulates. This reduces the presences of these animals on highways. The alternative is hunters shooting deer and elk. Statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans with guns controlling deer and elk herds are many times more dangerous to humans than abundant and healthy natural predators (cougars and wolves) controlling these animals.

It is disgusting to hear hound hunters use false information to create fear of wildlife in a naive public.

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#196599 - 05/10/03 10:11 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Fishingjunky15 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 874
Loc: Puyallup, WA
He should just be glad that it ws not a bear interested in his springer!

Jay
_________________________
They say that the man that gets a Ph.D. is the smart one. But I think that the man that learns how to get paid to fish is the smarter one.

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#196600 - 05/11/03 06:24 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 785
Loc: bullcanyon
fair hooker,
The cougars do control the deer herd, but when the population of cats gets too high the deer herd dwindles dramatically. Like right now. In most of western washington you can't see a dozen deer on a night of driving around the backroads when you used to be able to see 30-40. Now I know this isn't all because of the cougars, but they do eat a deer a week. I'm sure a few narrow minded individuals will jump and say " I got deer all over my area" well it won't be long and the cats will be there to take care of them.

It won't be long and the fuzzy bunny people will figure out whats happening to the deer and they'll start complaining to the WDFW about how they aren't doing their job. When in reality they're the ones who helped wipe the deer herds out by wiping out the hounds.

By the way there are way more encounters than those stats show. Probably that many in lewis county alone. Country folk don't run to the man every time they have a problem.
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

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#196601 - 05/11/03 07:16 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
golfer Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 154
Loc: Issaquah
Can't believe no one has shown concern for the 25# springer on the back of his pack. That is the real tragedy!
_________________________
Pass Me a Beer

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#196602 - 05/11/03 07:32 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
It is disgusting to hear hound hunters use false information to create fear of wildlife in a naive public.
and is that your opinion or do you have some actual facts or is that just something you thought up during a pipe dream?
False information to a naive puplic,,, that is tactics employed by groups such as HSUS/PAC
which BTW, recieved the maximum penalty allowed under state law, for running an illegal campaign filled full of deciet. That is fact!
Just who is calling the kettle black? We did not get fined for our legal campaigns.

I do recall some footage used by the anti's during the campaign that was not on the up and up. Do you rememeber that? or were you still living out of our state?

Quote:
Statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans with guns controlling deer and elk herds are many times more dangerous to humans than abundant and healthy natural predators (cougars and wolves) controlling these animals.
Show us these stats!

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#196603 - 05/11/03 07:18 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
stlhdfishn Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 319
Loc: kitsap peninsula
(QUOTE) Fact of the matter is cougars benefit human safety

How is it that they learned these habit's you speak of did they sit in on some drivers education classes or something :rolleyes: oh i know they got thier training from the border patrol probably got your facts the same place i got mine

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#196604 - 05/12/03 09:03 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
jeff'e'd Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 946
Loc: Snohomish, WA USA
I'm a little late in getting on this thread, but those of you that think that baiting bears and cougars, having your hounds chase them up trees and blasting them at close range is "sporting," give me a break!

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#196605 - 05/12/03 09:54 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Jeff e,,

Strong opinion you have there. Was that developed from actual experiences of a hound or a bait hunt?

Same strong opinions could be made on many fishing methods, as being "sporting"

here is a question for ya,

Is it OK with you that WDFW pay these same individuals that actually contributed $$ to conduct this heritage but are now getting paid by you and me for their services..

Here are some numbers to the House Natural Resources Committe from the WDFW on the post I-655 impacts for managing the cougar. They estimated 1.1 - 1.4 million.

Those monies sure could be used in other fish and wildlife programs huh

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#196606 - 05/12/03 10:22 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
jeff'e'd Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 946
Loc: Snohomish, WA USA
That's an interesting point dribtboater. I've just seen videos of the scenario that I posted above and it struck me as a "sad method to hunt." If the Cougars are in fact becoming overpopulated, that certainly needs to be dealt with, but I maintain that initiative had its merrits.

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#196607 - 05/12/03 10:50 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
goforchrome Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/02/01
Posts: 418
Loc: sammamish WA
Well said, Jeff'e'd.
Or put another way, substitute 'salmon' for 'bear' and 'nets for 'bait' and you have the same 'sport'.
In other areas, the same 'sport' is driving to the local dump at night and shooting you 'trophy' in the headlights.
Quite a challenge.
It would make me feel more like a man.
_________________________
If you leave things up to interpretation, there's no room to be right.

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#196608 - 05/12/03 11:57 AM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
I've just seen videos of the scenario that I posted above and it struck me as a "sad method to hunt."
It looks as though you may have fell victom to one of many decietfull tactics these groups emplore.

Why haven't raccoon or rabbit hunts been outlawed?
Why just bear and cougar? Is it because they have been portrayed for so long as endangered cute and cuddly animals?

Hey goforchrome,, its ok to slap on a nightcrawler to attract a fish, but unethical to to do that for bear? hmmm
Looks to me like you have fallen victom to the same media campaigns.


=============================
Animal rights groups targeting hunting, fishing
They are pressuring corporations with public campaigns, Fenton Roskelley writes.
September 12, 2001
Fenton Roskelley - The Spokesman-Review


Inland Northwest hunters and fishers are becoming accustomed to being attacked by animal rights groups and their supporters.
Most of them know their enemies. Among their most vociferous and persistent critics are the animal rights activists such as the Humane Society of the United States, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and the Friends of Animals.

The animal rightists want to stop all hunting and fishing. To the consternation of sportsmen, they have converted many Americans to their way of thinking.

Unfortunately, for hunters and fishers, the rights groups win more battles than they lose. They pick their battles carefully. They know most Americans have little sympathy for trappers; consequently, they've targeted trapping in many states and they've succeeded in getting some states either to ban trapping or drastically curtail it.

Every time they conduct a campaign, they win converts to their cause even though they lose a battle. As a result, they add to the growing number of citizens who believe that hunting should be banned or sharply curtailed.

They know that persuading Americans to ban fishing will be a tough sell. So far, an overwhelming majority of Americans support fishing so they are concentrating on trying to get people to ban hunting.

Woods and fields of the Inland Northwest are filling with deer, bear, elk and bird hunters. All but a minority are behaving ethically. Among the minority, however, are the poachers and hooligans, none of whom will consider how destructive their actions are to conscientious hunters.
Animal rightists are always looking for incidents that will help their cause. They publicize the transgressions of the poachers and hooligans on their Web sites and send out press releases that infer that all hunters are bloodthirsty louts.
They have developed several often-effective strategies to win their fights. They intimidate government agencies, persuade people to boycott big store chains that sell furs or anything made of animal parts and sweet-talk voters into banning certain types of hunting.

PETA last week won a battle to force Wendy's restaurants to change its ways of buying meat. PETA supporters picketed restaurants and intimidated customers. Activists shouted "Wendy's tortures animals." The day after Wendy's caved in to PETA's demands, the organization's Web site carried a story about the campaign. The headline crowed "PETA Wins Wicked Wendy's Campaign."

PETA targets many big companies for allegedly mistreating animals or supporting hunting and fishing. It also picks on federal and state government agencies.

For example, the National Trappers Association recently petitioned the U.S. Postal Service to create a series of stamps honoring trappers. PETA has asked its members to write to politicians and Postal Service officials protesting the NTA proposal.

The stamps, PETA says, "would glorify the cruel mutilation and slaughter of animals.

The group's members are now writing letters urging the University of Florida not to pick an Oregon scientist for an important job. P. Michael Conn of the Oregon Regional Primate Center is one of the finalists for vice president of research at the university.

"Conn conducts painful, unscientific and unethical gland research on marmoset, rhesus and macaque monkeys," PETA alleges.

PETA also is conducting campaigns against several big companies it claims are guilty of animal abuse. It says Nissan "glorifies bullfighting," Isuzu "uses skins to sell SUVs" and Hilton Hotels "holds animals captive."

To avoid bad publicity, many corporations do what PETA wants them to do.

PETA, which recently launched a campaign to ban all fishing, is trying to force the Boy Scouts of America to drop its merit badge on fishing. So far, the group hasn't demanded that states end hunting and fishing, something, they know won't be done.

The Fund for Animals has demanded that newspaper editors and officials of TV cable channels stop promoting hunting and trapping. It's too early to know whether any editors or TV officials have changed their policies.

Incidentally, the Fund for Animals is the organization that wants all Americans to become vegetarians. One of its advertising campaigns is titled "Spare an animal, eat a vegetable."

The Humane Society of the United States, the biggest and most powerful animal rights group, has won numerous battles in its campaign against hunting. It claims that it is responsible for the bans against trapping in Arizona, California, Colorado and Massachusetts, and the ban of steel traps in New Jersey.

HSUS also says it thwarted an attempt to open bear hunting in Florida, Maryland and New Jersey. The society has condemned dove hunting.

HSUS last week claimed the wild services branch of the Department of Agriculture "is violating Washington's law restricting the use of cruel and indiscriminate steel-jawed leghold traps and certain poisons to kill wildlife."

So far HSUS hasn't condemned the latest action by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission enabling hound hunters to kill more cougars in areas where the cats are threatening people and livestock. The commission will issue permits for 109 cougars in 21 game management units. Last year 74 permits were issued. For a permit to be issued, there must be 11 confirmed complaints involving human/cougar interaction, at least four of which must involve a threat to the safety of humans, pets or livestock. Hunters say the requirement is too stringent.

To the HSUS, however, any change easing the regulations to control cougar numbers is unacceptable. Maybe HSUS is too involved with its many anti-hunting campaigns to protest the commission's action.


•You can contact Fenton Roskelley by voice mail at 459-5577, extension 3814.

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#196609 - 05/12/03 12:38 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
stilly bum Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/19/01
Posts: 250
Loc: SnoCo
The argument can be made that baiting bears is the most sporting way to hunt them. It takes days of preparation and work to get a bait station running. In the end the hunter knows the routines of the local bears and can set himself up for a perfect shot angle at a close distance. Anti-hunters like to complain that hunters take long shots or have an unfair advantage with long range rifles, but when a hunter sets himself up for a close shot at a good angle, they call that unsporting too.
_________________________
If anybody needs me, I'll be on the river.

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#196610 - 05/12/03 12:57 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Anonymous
Unregistered


Excellent argument SB!

I baited and shot a bear.. Lotsa of hard work. 4mile roundtrip hike. Heavy pack on the way in. I sat there 5 days after the season opener before I spotted the bear.
I have also filmed 2 different pair of sows with cubs. Pretty cool!
It may not have been to cool for the cubs if I was scoping the sow from say 300 yds. and the cubs are not visable from that range and I decidd to take the shot only to get there and see that there are cubs involved.
That scenerio is greatly minimized over bait.

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#196611 - 05/12/03 01:00 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3296
So if you dump a bunch of hatchery feed into a hole several days in a row (chumming) it is more sporting than actually having to fish all the drifts trying to find the fish? Wouldn't dynamite be even more sporting then?

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#196612 - 05/12/03 01:04 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
goforchrome Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/02/01
Posts: 418
Loc: sammamish WA
It is argued that it is unfair for certain groups to net salmon in their spawning rivers or in their feeding grounds.
It takes a skilled netter to position the net just right so that the salmon or steelhead swims right into it and the skilled netter can then bag his prize.
Hours of preparation and knowledge, not to mention risking life and limb in the process.
Nets are heavy.
Timing the run takes yrs of practice and patience.

We all know what happens when the salmon population is not controlled in this manner....
Competition for for prime redds brings them right into streams adjacent to our neighborhoods.

Killing them for fun using the most effective means possible is my right and I won't be denied!

My Daddy done it, his Daddy done it, and so will my young'uns.
_________________________
If you leave things up to interpretation, there's no room to be right.

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#196613 - 05/12/03 02:53 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
So if you dump a bunch of hatchery feed into a hole several days in a row (chumming) it is more sporting
Quote:
Wouldn't dynamite be even more sporting then?
You sound like you may have some experience with those practices?
Are they WDFW endorsed?

=============================


Quote:
Killing them for fun using the most effective means possible is my right and I won't be denied!
My Daddy done it, his Daddy done it, and so will my young'uns.
Looks to me your were raised with some very high standards.

There is no doubt you take nets out you will see increased returns. Just like you take the most effective predator MANAGEMENT tool away you see an increase as we have, which BTW threatens humans.

So whats your point Sherlock?

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#196614 - 05/12/03 02:56 PM Re: Cougar attack on the Kalama
parker Offline
Chicken Wing
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 7462
Loc: Margaritaville
Crikey! Just install some frickin' goal posts in your yard and you won't see a damn cougar for miles!

I am your problem solver!

\:D
_________________________
"Among the lucky, you are The Chosen One."

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