I have been trying to say that but these boys just dont seem to understand that. I guess being close minded also constitutes a thick skull
Someone said this in another post and it rings true here,, What's Red Foremans favorite saying? Something like "You Dumbas s"

Just for the record i voted against the ban on the use of dogs, for i thought the WDFW could manage the cougar population better through tag issuance. I would be curious as to learn the harvest of the year 2000 of 200+ cougars and then what the harvest of the last full season using dogs was. But i also do not believe that the cougar population in my part of the state has exploded like some would like to believe. I am not speaking for the whole state, just S.W WA. However that dosent mean that it couldnt become a problem in the future, its just one incident(not an attack more like a probe) dosent prove anything as a population indicator. It seems to be more of a problem in the state of Oregon more so than Washington.I do know that a majority of the cougar harvest occur east of the mountains, perhaps they are experiecing a steeper climb in numbers of cougar? Heck ill bet the guy at Kalama was just tryin to scare people off his honey hole and made it all up so he'd have the whole river to himself. You were gonna say chicken werent you? Here kitty kitty

From what I can tell by looking at the harvest reports I have, in 1996 there was 178 cougars killed.

In 2001 there was 300 cougars killed. Of course, that is with a total of 56,482 cougar tags sold. In 1996, it looks like the number of tags sold was only around 200 or so.

The problem is that the people who are anti-hunting have never experienced a hunt. They can't even stay on topic.

I don't tell you where to get your groceries. Don't tell me where to get mine.

I am by no means anti hunting. I am anti bear baiting and anti leg hold trapping. I also don't feel the cougar population is by any means out of control. You aren't doing me any favors by hunting and killing them. In fact I prefer dangerous animals out there weeding out the gene pool.
Here's a resolution to this thread. If the WDFW is paying people to control the population via means that you consider fun , sporting and for the good of man kind then get a job with the WDFW. You'll get paid to do what you like to do.

Exactly!


I'll try and answer some of your questions though the data I have compiled stops at 1998, thats when I kinda stopped fighting the fight. I do have some graphs that go back to the 30's prior to the bounty days.
I have in front of me a state wildlife complaint sheet that is broke down into individual state counties for both bear and cougar. I have it from prior the ban and up to 1998. Also in hand is a permit harvest summary for cougars from 1987-1995 (and partial data for 1996)

Top five counties for cougar incidents
1995

Pierce..... 30
Stevens.. 28
King........ 21
Okanogan 20
Ferry....... 17

1998

Spokane.. 105 (1995=7) major increase
King......... 95
Stevens... 88
Pierce...... 71
Snohomish 71 (1995=11) major increase
===============================

1987

170 permits 60 cougars harvested

1995

446 permits 283 cougars harvested

here is an interesting side note at the bottom of this page I am looking at
It reads like this,

* The 1994 and 1995 permit totals and hunter success rates do not include "boot only" cougar hunting activity. Despite 811 boot only permits being available. only 365 were purchased and 121 people actually hunted cougar without hounds. Boot hunters killed a total of 3 cougar in 1994 and 1995.

Let me know if there is anything else. If you want specific counties for comparision let me know.
Granted these are only compliants but as stated prior I believe them to be good data on population status. (no fuzzy math here )

Like stealhead, I am not anti hunting and have nothing to do or back PETA. I choose not to hunt, but that doesn't mean I look down on hunters. In this case, it just doesn't strike me as a sporting way to hunt. I certainly understand the sensatitity that hunters feel that their rights are being threatened, just as I do with the extremist views of Washington trout as to the elimination of chinook hatcheries. No offense intended guys!

Watch out here comes an opinion, it's mine and nobody elses, so please nobody get their panties in a knot!

I would agree that your not anti-hunting if you stated that you don't agree with those methods but understand they are viable and valubale managment practices but you didn't you stated you are ANTI!
In my book and many others book you are ANTI-Hunting..

Stradling the fence is dangerous!

I may have been a little harsh. I don't condemn hunters, as many friends choose to do so. As you can tell, in my non- fence straddleing position, I choose not to. By the way the meat I eat is from farm raised animals. Not that they have a great life but it is in their contract.

Driftboater, you may call me a fence stander if you will. I call it generating interesting discussion and causing people to critically evaluate their ethics. My intent to not to cast a negative aspersion. I would admit my first post may have seemed to be more negative.

Jeff e,,

I think the dialogue we had was very civil.
I believe you see a different perspective from the other side, though you might "personnally" not agree with it and wouldn't pursue a hound hunting or baiting endeavor. I hope that you see it as a viable, practical and very much needed managment tool our WDFW needs to utilize.

I agree you are very entitled to your opinion as I am to mine but the backers of these two intiatives that thought the same way you do, Forced their opinion through lies and deciet down my throat and the rest of the state. Now causing a financial burden on our already stressed WDFW budget.

Just does not make much sense to me but then again I am labled just a DA "billie" that shoudn't know no better.

Some time I would like "fence standers" to experience and witness first hand what is involved in a hound hunt or a trapline, or a baitstand.
If interested, this upcoming winter I may be able to arrange a hound hunt (video documented professionally) and I think having someone with no knowledge of what a hound hunt entails and someone that personally believes it's not "sporting" to come along and witness.
Would you be interested in something like this?

Driftboater, that sounds like an interesting and forthright opportunity for the right person who has the time. I doubt that I would be able to find the time to do that. I think you and other's have demonstrated a more thoughtful approach than what was presented during the initiative process several years ago.

There's a contract that says that food animals have to lead that life??

Well... I guess I prefer to eat animals which have not had to live in their own crap in a feed lot for their lives, pumped full of hormones, antibiotics, and vaccines. Making food animals live in misery is far more inhumane, in my opinion, than killing a wild animal which has been able to live a natural life.

Animals should be treated with respect, even those we eat.

CWU Girl - With all due respect, there are over 6 billion human inhabitants living on the earth today. How long ya figure the quail and deer populations would last if everyone only ate what they went out and killed?

Neither side is changing the other's mind in this discussion, and I highly doubt that they ever will. Let's agree to disagree and call it good!

I have yet to hear any argument as to why I should side with you on this issue. All I have heard is that its considered to be not "sporting"
I have, along with others, presented stats, WDFW recomendations and expendatures about hounding, trapping, baiting.

What have you presented ? an opinion? woohoo!
Where's ya facts? No need to answer that loaded question, cause I know where they are. I have been asking that question since 1995 and have yet to get a logical answer. I even debated this on the "buzz" radio station. I asked a simple question about the Black Bear EIS guess what none of those folks even had taken the time to educate themselves with it? Needless to say I had alot of fun with that live conversation..

Most of those 6 billion inhabitants do not consume meat like we do in the United States, so your point is lost. We have a cultural bias towards eating it. If the rest of the world ate farm raised meat like we do, I'd hate to know what the cost to the environment would be as well as the human cost (meat is more expensive both in dollars and energy to produce).

We have the ability to treat our food animals well and do not. That is a crime against nature.

There have been many thoughtful responses over the last day or two and I would like to clear the air over a few of mine.....
First, apologies for any perceived personal attacks.
I began hunting in the midwest at the age of 6. That's right 6 yrs old. 20ga side by side shooting rabbits, squirrels and pheasants-(direct decendants of the original euro strain introduced over 100 yrs ago, not feedlot birds with 6in tails)
I chose not to shoot waterfowl when I learned that geese and ducks mate for life. Seemed to me at an early age that there was an ethical issue killing the mate of a committed relationship, even if the genus is other than ours.
I attended one hound hunt, this for raccoons. A tradition in my neck of the woods. A right of passage for the young men (chauvinism was a little more accepted then). Shooting a 'coon out of a tree after chasing hounds for miles in the dark seemed like target practice. Rarely were they dead when they hit the ground. A few really tore up the dogs. It was not real pleasant from my perspective.
I have hunted from a very early age.
I have fished from a very early age.
I choose to engage in activities I feel are sporting.
I practice catch and release more often than you might imagine.
I have no need for pictures of dead animals.
I am satisfied to buy my meat from Costco, where the animals were on a one-way trip from the start, never having to earn a living and fight for existence.
I respect the animals that do scratch out a living and fight for their survival.
Am I a PETA member? No.
I am a hunter/fisherman/sportsman with a moral and ethical compass that sometimes points in the opposite direction of other hunter/fisherman/sportsman.
I do believe in the ethical treatment of animals whether it is preservation or a humane kill.
Am I an Elitist Snob? Maybe.
Am I going to back down from my point of view? Only if you can prove me wrong.
Let's move on.

Driftboater - I'm NOT asking you to side with me anymore, and I AM the guy who posted links to FACTS on the subject straight from WDFW.

So, let me ask this: You speak english right? Do you not understand this:

???

If not, let me put it another way:

You, CWU, Hairy Ape, bearmanric etc... believe what you believe. Those that have offered an opposing viewpoint believe what they believe. Let's just respect that fact and move on!

CWUgirl - We could go round and round all day playing this semantics game. How 'bout we do what I suggested above?

goforchrome, actually the first pheasants came from China and they were first introduced in Oregon, which is where all following transplants originated from.

Europeans are known for their game farms. Today almost all british pheasant hunting are of caged birds.

4Salt,,
Just stating facts, I have yet to hear an argument from your side.

GFC,,
Do you really think geese and ducks mate for life?
I believe that geese will mate for life but given the opportunity they will find a new mate. Dcuks will just flat out whore around. Go out to your local pond and you will watch a waterfowl orgy with multiple partners..

I am not trying to change any of your minds but just presenting hard facts that show how certain practices are needed managment tools within our WDFW, besides your personal opinions.
If you do not see that they are needed managment tools, so be it. With the facts presented I have a really hard time understanding how someone cannot see they are viable and needed. If this is the case what would your funding ideas be? I am tired of having to pay those predator managment costs.

There are many practices and activities that I do not particularily agree with but my views do not mean they are wrong or not needed.

Thats the difference, I am not going to condone you for conducting that practice why do you condone me for my practices?