Since the purpose of raising hatchery fish is largely for harvest, why then is WDFW not raising the limits to accomplish that goal? Since the return timing of hatchery fish is a very limited time in most areas, and of most species, why not allow more harvest on them, and help stop any possible intermingling with our wild stocks gene pool?

Who can give us any scientific reasons why this cannot, and should not be occurring right now?

Forget your emotion, and state only factual information that you know! In most places, it does not take very many hatchery fish to meet the hatchery needs, so why doesn't WDFW allow more harvest on these hatchery fish?

As just one flaming example, here, on the Cowlitz, the early predicted coho runs are being predicted to supercede last years runs by almost double! So why hasn't WDFW increased the limits of coho to adjust to the huge number of predicted coho that are predicted to return? At best, WDFW only need about 10,000 adults to meet all of their Cowlitz Salmon Hatcheries needs, plus a few more! So even "IF" the current predictions are even off by 50%, WDFW will still see a return of over 80 thousand adult coho back to the Cowlitz Salmon Hatchery this year.

Could it be that WDFW has already been "bought off" by the Commercial Columbia River Gill Netters, and that it is already been preordained that they are going to be the ones who are going to reap the huge returns of our coho runs this year? Since the netters always get the "first shot" at the major portion of the hatchery runs, what do you think will happen? There is no reason that I can see why this does not apply to all hatchery stocks of steelhead, and chinook too!

Now is the time to ask these questions, and not in the middle of the run!

OK, except for "4Salt", and his endless desire to counter my questions with his endless conspiracy crap, can anyone else out there answer these questions? If not, don't be a scratching your heads later!

Cowlitzfisherman

You ain't gettin' off that easy Cowlitz. You gotta know that I'm a gonna post some know-it-all sh!t! ESPECIALLY if it's a topic YOU started!!! :p

Just kidding! Doesn't WDFW usually announce increased limits if they're warranted after the season gets underway? Like they just did on the Wind river for example. That way they have a bit of insurance that the run will actually materialize.


In fact, they increased the summer-run steelhead limit to 3 fish per day on the Lewis and Cowlitz last year during the season because of an over-abundance of fish.

Seems to me that in 2001 the coho limit on the Cowlitz was increased to 6 adults!

Bottom line Cowlitz, no matter what I say, you'll come up with some dip$hit babble to try to... ahh hell, who KNOWS what it is you try to do. CERTAINLY not me.

The sport limit on coho has been raised on August 16th in the Columbia but you are probably correct that the netters will have a big share. ..and of course the tribes will get to sell tons of these fish out of their pickups and old coolers filled with warm water by the side of the road....largely uncounted fish. Then you get a shot and then the hatchery

Although I think the idea of getting hatchery fish out of our rivers before they spawn I also think angling ethic is of extreme importance to the future of our sport. That ethic is already seriously lacking! I think raising the limits on hatchery fish no matter how many fish there are is a bad idea. for 2 reasons..

1. it sends the wrong message to anglers. It basically tells them there are lots of fish and they can kill as many as they can catch. Also it semds them the message that it's ok to be greedy. keeping 3-4 steelhead a day IS greedy no matter how many fish there are.
I think the limit should be 2 a day 30 per year no wild fish period..

2. it sends the message that hatcheries are doing nothing wrong and makes anglers dependant on hatcheries. Quite frankly in the case of the Cowlitz and the North Lewis I'd catch more fish if there were fewer fish in the river simply because it would reduce the amount of pressuer on thoes rivers. In my opinion WDFW should not be promoting the blue creek fishery as the ideal steelhead fishery. Thats just a zoo where the greediest people take home limits and no one else gets a shot. This is also a great argument for boat limits.. Guides shouldn't be running multiple trips a day limiting out with 4 guys at a time. That again is clearly damaging to sport fishing as it breeds a generation of greedy anglers who are self centered and lack ethics.

Everywhere you go where there are large numbers of fish with liberal limits there is a fishery that is prodominantly made up of people who are greedy and who push the regulations as far as they can and extremely often break them.

I think angling ethics is extremely important and like it or not WDFW needs to be in the bussiness of promoting them. Not doing so is another gross failure of that orgainization.

Rob, cmon is it really that bad? You say that only the greedy get rewarded? I dont think so. I think the average Joe gets rewarded, he/she can stay longer and fish more if there are more fish to be harvested. And yes this will take some of the attention off of wild/native fish as well.
I think the daily limit thing should be handled on a case by case basis, while the run is occuring. However, I think the annual limit thing should be looked at again( for hatchery fish only). Take the Cowlitz summer run last year for example. The daily limit was three, and even the most un-experienced of angler's were limiting there with plenty of fish to spare. Im doing the math and that makes 10 days of limiting between the months of May and August, this was not a hard thing to do last year. Yeah I know who could eat more than 30 steelhead a year is your next question. Certainly even the biggest steelhead eater would grow tired, but how about friends and neighbors that are constantly asking for some fish. Is it really that bad to send a little hatchery meat their way?
I think the increased limit on hatchery fish is win/win. More oppurtunity for the masses and less pressure on wild or native runs.

RL

Rock Lizard firstly i don't feel extremely strongly about this issue but when you ask me if it's really that bad, when it comes to current angling ethic among steelhead fishermen I think it's extremely bad and needs to be dealt with..

Rob,
I see what your saying about the ethics, but I dont think that one's ethics have anything to do with the oppurtunity to keep an extra fish or two. Most "un-ethical" anglers could give two craps whether the state endorses the keeping of more fish for harvest or not. I consider my ethics to be in good standing and I can think of a time or two when an extra fish for the card would've been nice, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Just because I or anyone else CAN keep an extra fish doesn't mean they WILL. Im just saying its nice to have the option of making the decision myself, rather than the state.

RL

I think the "wait and see" method is best when adjusting limits upwards. I just wish they would apply that towards reductions, especially for the commercial guys, when runs come in at less than expected levels.

Predictions are okay, to a point, but there are so many factors that can impact the fish, so they are an imperfect tool.

I am all for upping the limits when the fish are thick. I love silvers for smoking, and it is nice to be able to catch 6 hens and get 12+ pounds of eggs for later on in the season.

ANdy

What's wrong with wanting to keep fish for food?

I agree with CFM(as I look to the sky for the lightning strike) Why do we have to wait until half the fish are boots before the limit is raised?

Hey 4Salt, (4S)

When you address issues like you just have done, I have no problem talking fish with you, even though you still are trying to stick it to me!

One of the "problems" that WDFW has created, is once they "announce" that they "have too many" fish returning, the Gill Netters (GN's) jump on it like flies on $hit! The GN's then "demand" that WDFW give them the "opportunity" to harvest those "extra fish". The big problem here is; the GN's do not know who's fish they are taking until it's all over and done with! As an example; they could be wiping out 90% of several smaller river runs, while totally missing the entire other river that had produced the oversize runs (i.e the Cowlitz coho run)! Now that's fish management at its best!

Now think of it this way 4S, IF WDFW had set its coho limits early on, let's say at 6 adults for hatchery coho on the Cowlitz, the GN's wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. But that's not the way that it works on the Columbia is it? Did you get a chance to read or check what the limits are for coho on the Cowlitz this year?

If you have not, notice that the sport fishing limit has now been raised to 3 adult coho. So they (WDFW) "knew" way ahead of the time that they were going to get back a lot of coho this year to the Cowlitz, or they would not have raised the sport limit to 3 adults so early.

Now apply this into your equation 4S: You said: "In fact, they increased the summer-run steelhead limit to 3 fish per day on the Lewis and Cowlitz last year 'during the season' because of an over-abundance of fish." And then you said;" Like they just did on the Wind river for example. That way they have a bit of insurance that the run will actually materialize."

Well 4S, even if you gave them that insurance, and the run only materialized at lets say half (50%) of what is currently predicted, you still got 80,000 + adults returning this year to the Cowlitz. . . hello can you hear me now?!

How much "insurance" do you need for "hatchery fish? Let's see one more time; the hatchery needs are 10,000 at best, and you have over 80,000 + adults returning equals: 700% over insured! Well, I would say that just may be a "little bit of an overkill", wouldn't you?

If my memory serves me correct, I believe that WDFW did not increase the coho limit to 4 until just before the GN's were almost done with their fishing season last year! And how many guys do you know of who fished the Cowlitz last year that filled their 4 fish limit each day that they fished?

Rob: Can you help us out here and PLEASE EXPLAIN to us just what the devil "ethics'" has to with increasing the amount of a fish limit?

You said; "it sends the wrong message to anglers. It basically tells them there are lots of fish and they can kill as many as they can catch. Also it sends them the message that it's ok to be greedy. Keeping 3-4 steelhead a day IS greedy no matter how many fish there are."

Using your logic Rob, can you explain why it is "greedy" to keep 3-4 steelhead, when it is not "greedy" to keep 5 bass, 15 whitefish, 5 cannel catfish, no limits on shad, no limits on crappie, northern pike, perch, sunfish, or regular cat fish, and no limits on Albacore tuna, or mackerel? Where do you guys get your logic from?

Just a couple more issues with what you have said. You said;" That's just a zoo where the greediest people take home limits and no one else gets a shot. This is also a great argument for boat limits.. Guides shouldn't be running multiple trips a day limiting out with 4 guys at a time. That again is clearly damaging to sport fishing as it breeds a generation of greedy anglers who are self centered and lack ethics."

We got to love your logic Rob! Tell us again; why is it that only you believe; "the greediest people take home limits and no one else gets a shot" at Blue Creek? Is it because someone gets up 1 hour early, or fishes at night; or is the limited amount of room to stand; or is it because they hook the "biters" before some one else does; since the creek is open to fishing all the way to the hatchery part of the time, what makes it so that no one else ever gets "a shot"?

And finally your last statement is really a good one too! You say; "Guides shouldn't be running multiple trips a day limiting out with 4 guys at a time. That again is clearly damaging to sport fishing as it breeds a generation of greedy anglers who are self centered and lack ethics."

Well Rob, can you tell us why it is OK and ethical for "charter boats" to make more then one trip a day? Or take out 30 guys who are cauthing the "same fish" but in a differnt area then the river guide? How about sturgeon guides? What about their ethics? Is it OK with you if guides run 4 trips a day for catch and release? Or do you decide what a person can make for a days work of fishing? Do you also decide when and how many people a guide can take out fishing? It's not the guide who is taking the fish; it's the "sport fishers" who have hired the guide who is catching the fish!

Not trying to pick on you as old "4S" always claims, but your logic certainly does not fit the many! Before I leave you alone, would you please define what "ethical" is and where we can find a single acceptable definition that applies to fishing?

PS, can you also tell us who wrote this "ethical" rule, or whose version you are using this time around?

Cowlitzfisherman

Nice Cowlitz ,

I have also had a feeling that the limits are so low on hatchery fish because the state wants more people to buy fish from the indians!

When the fish are in I always fish where the limits are highest. No thats not greed Robby boy I am just doing my part to take business away from the indians. I give 90% of what I catch away to people who would normally just buy it from the indians, and I encourage others to do likewise ( did Ya notice how the price on fish has dropped over the last several years).

Theres to many people that think to hard about what everybody else is or should be doing.

Fish and have fun for tommorrow may be there last day. (Sarcasm) Oh boy, that will get some remarks.

probly because they have charts and graphs that estamate how much money all us sportsfishers will be spending and dont see a need to up the limits so they will give the netters a nice share of the fish and it will all look good on paper

Catch and keep does not equal greed or stupidity
Catch and release does not equal superior intelligence or ethics.

Those are two schools of thought about fishing
thats all.

The thing tha bugs me about the C&R fly fishers is not what they do but how pompous they can become when they pontificate about their way of doing things.

Why with the attitude??? I don't get it..

QUIT assuming i am saying what I am not!!!! There is no between the lines here i said exactly what i meant..

I do not think killing fish to eat is wrong I don't think limiting out is wrong i never said or implied anything of the kind.. I never tried to dictate how anyone should fish. never said or implied it.

However when there are lots of fish to be had it brings out the worst in people take the Satsop river chum run or any salmon run at Cedar creek on the north lewis. There are dozens of cases around the state i could cite where behavior not acceptable on a stream is common place and WDFW should be working to remedy that as should each and every angler and boater.. Like it or not there are right and wrongs in this world including on our rivers. There are right and wrong ways to enter a steelhead run right and wrong ways to enter a hog line. Etiquite (sp?) and ethics ar4e extremely important no matter where you are. And as in all things the Golden rule applies.

Aunty........ do not worry! Rob is just a little dizzy from doing his 180 degree spin on what he had written earlier before!

It's called "the spin factor"!

Cowlitzfisherman

Aunty How many days did you go out and keep 3 fish last year?? You assured me in recent posts that you rarely keep salmon and steelhead. If thats true then you aren't greedy. If your out there limiting every night whch many people do that is greedy. I am not talking about actions so much as a mind set.

I did not say i wanted fewer fish so that I could catch more I did not say that or imply that. I simply said i would catch more if there were fewer fish and therefore people. There is a difference between stating a fact than expressing a desire..

There is a concept you need to understand while you read. It's called considering the context.. It's quite important..


As far as multi trips per day.

I see your point i just don't agree that thats a good thing.. How is the guy different than a commercial fisherman..

If this type of mentality stayed at blue creek I wouldn't have a problem with it but it doesn't it starts there and spreads to every other river.

on the other hand maybe i just shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion..

By now all of you should know that alot of the fall fish limits have already been increased with the run projections which is kind of new for the wdf. Usually the increased bag limits are only changed after they meet the hatchery goals for spawning so this is a new deal this year!! But how many times have the wdf been wrong? Where were the winterrun hatchery fish? Just a good example is the early closures on alot of the puget sound rivers when they did not meet the spawning goals and had to scramble at the end of the season to get their fish!!! I'm all for liberial limits but like the way they been doing things works for me, example today I fished the Wind river springer run which is a 4 fish limit,but only killed one fish although I legally hooked twenty and had the option to kill plenty more and I saw alot of people doing the same thing also saw the snaggers the mongers ,etc.,So I think what I'm trying to say is with out the system working the way it does now I would have probably been sitting home doing chores!!!PEACE

Hey Rob,

there are just some people around that you have to watch what you say because even though you meant one thing they purposely enterperate it another way just to make you look bad or get you in trouble for that matter.

As far as im concerned I could give a darn what people think about me or say because Im Black and white no grey. people love me or hate me for my personality and views.

As far as the one who is trying to tell you what you meant, well I pay no attention to her and if I were you I wouldnt sweat her either.

Aunty M I said exactly what I meant and my statements in no way contradict themselves. You are making an assumption about me that is entirely wrong, that being that It's importnat to me to catch more fish. It's not! I am perfectly content with the number of fish I catch.

ok I posted my opinion because somoene asked for opinions I got slammed for my views because people cannot handle someone thinking differently than them. If all someone cares about is catching as many fish as possible they they don't get it and no amopunt or arguing will change that, When people have that attitude on a river it breeds competition among anglers and ruins the experience and is damaging to sport fishing.

Ans thank you so much for ignoring all my main points.... I'll never respond to anything you right ever again.