*LOL* Grandpa thank you very much dor discrediting yourself. you have not read the HGMP's and therefore do not know what you are talking about.. prove me wrong.. Go read them then tell me what specific actions WDFW is planning to take to solve the known problems at their hatcheries..

On the other hand maybe you can't find the various leadeing members of WT out fishing because you do not know them or anything about them.
But i do. they tell me about winter steelheading on the Skagit they fish in the sound for salmon and then writting magazine atricles about it. They plunk sandshrimp and a spinglo on Drano lake trying to harvest a hatchry spring chinook. Maybe you should take some time to get to know some of these members they are as much about saving sportfishing as you.. However they understand that to save the fishing you must first save the fish..

Aunty M.. your hardly worth responding to in my opinion.. I have in the past as noted by other members here posted literally dozens of documents by hundreds of UNBIASED scientists.

Aunty M how many punches on your card this year?? mine?? 0 last year?? 4 the year before? 1.

You are largely incorrect about why hatcheries exsist.. Most hatcheries exsist because of loss of habitat due to hydro powered dams!!! NOT overharvest. especially here in the Columbia drainage.

As i already statd chum salmon are very easy to restore all they need is clean gravel and access to good estuary habitat.

hatcheries have never to my knowledge been successful in restoring any salmon runs anywhere. understand "restoring" to mean the long term self sustaining runs at high population levels. In fact the oppisite is true every time you put hatchery fish on top of wild fish the population of wild fish goes down..

hatcheries have their place and certainly WT knows and accepts that fact I have never heard anyone from WT say or imply anything different.. However they do not belong in nearly every single river in the state , which is currently the case. You don't see anything wrong because you already have what you want( Lots of hatchery fish everywhere) No hatchery to my knowledge has ever been closed as a result of any action by WT. No hatchery production level or any procedure has ever been changed as a result of any action by Washington Trout. All they are doing it seems to me is to try to get WDFW to live up to their legal obligations. This is a totally run away agency that thinks it is not accountable to us. Wt is trying to change that..


I also suggest you take a long hard look at WT's work in the past regarding harvest issues. They have done a ton of work to reduce harvest levels of salmon. They have been greatly involved in every aspect of salmon restoration which benefits YOU as a sportfisher.. it is my opinion you owe them an apology and a thankyou for all the work they have done on your behalf.

But i make you the same offer if you care about wild salmon if you really do then come out to the East Lewis next saturday with a shovel and a wheelbarrow the gravel you'll move will have chums spawning in it in November.

PS done with this thread

While it's not my job to arbitrate, conversations where one side blatently accuses the other of being ignorant ultimately continue to make the divide even greater. Both sides of the WT issue have their arguments, and there is truth in them both. When personal attacks begin to be the means of communication, both sides walk away and this is not what is needed to solve the problem.

At some point one has to rely on the fact the ultimately people have to make up their minds by themselves. With a thorough and thoughtful means of relaying the facts, and I do mean the facts versus opinions, hopefully we as a society of sport fisherman can make the right decisions concerning the ultimate outcome of the very fish that we love so dearly.

Spoken like a true moderate Twig. I wish I could help with the problem but we solved them all over a couple of beers down at the pub earlier and we will solve them again over a couple of beers at the pub again tomorrow and the next day just as we have every evening in the past. You can rest assured that every night our collective wisdom openly shared in good humor with no problem ignored. Everyone with an open mouth is welcome.

Rob A... OK Ill say it, "All I want is to bonk a few fish for the table."

And by the way... In answer to your question:
The runs of wild Puget Saound Chinook are not endangered nor are they listed as endangered under the ESA . They are in fact doing quite well lately, even showing an increasing trend in their numbers.

Plunker,

You said, "The runs of wild Puget Saound Chinook are not endangered nor are they listed as endangered under the ESA . They are in fact doing quite well lately, even showing an increasing trend in their numbers."

Isn't that a bit misleading? True, they are not endangered nor listed as such. However, wild Puget Sound chinook salmon are listed as threatened under the ESA. A couple of years of improved returns (due almost entirely to higher marine survival) does not a trend make. The long term trend (measured over 5, 10, or 20 year increments) is clearly declining. When PS chinook are consistently abundant in years of low marine survival, then I'll agree that their continued existence is not imperiled.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo - You are absolutely right as usual and right again in pointing that out.

Sometimes I tire of those same misleading implications when posted as truisms. I simply wanted Rob to stop and check his facts and (shuffling my foot here) discredit him a bit.

Rob allen
Do not feel like you are alone out there.The wdfw is uncontrolled and needs to be put back into its place.Hatcheries can be used to subsidise our ever growing population but it needs to be done responsibly.Our current hatchery policies are not responsible and need to be addressed.In the past our gov.both state and fed have allowed the over harvest of our fish and the destruction of our wetland ecosystem causing a serios decline in our native fish.The quick answer was to build hatcheries.There was no thought to the of the implications.Now many years down the road the implications are becoming quite obvios but here once again politics means more than the facts.wt you keep doing what you are doing.If it means a few less fish for the table then so be it.

Comparing punch cards again eh Rob? What does that prove? Mine is bigger than yours! Hey come on over and bring your tape measure.

Washington Trout (accdording to Rob) says that hatcheries have their place. Now I haven't read that anywhere from Ramon or his cronies. Can you show me a documented quote where WT admits that hatcheries are a good thing and have their place in fisheries management.

AuntyM owes WT an apoolgy according to Rob...Well Rob you're going to have to change your name to Mr. Blue because that is the color you are going to be ,holding your breath for that to happen. I think Ramon, you and all the rest of the people who speak out for Washington Trout need to apologize to the all of us for being less than honest and very disingenuous. If you put a string of pearls on a pig you still have a pig. Your self serving narrow agenda doesn't sell to the majority of fishermen. Atleast you could tell the whole truth. Stop trying to be self-righteous as if your "cause" to eliminate hatcheries is somehow nobler than anything any of the rest of us are doing for our fisheries. It isn't. Pinch yourself.

Salmo...You bring up the benefits of marine survival and I assume you mean the favorable ocean conditions and abundance of feed? That is correct. What you failed to mention is that this same argument has been used in reverse when runs are poor. Poor ocean survival is blamed. Ocean conditions improving and resulting in huge runs shoots the heck out of the habitat onshore argument in the context of finding a single most-important cause of decline. So to simplify this and say oh well the big returns are only because of the favorable ocean conditions would be disingenuous and an incomplete assessment of the situation. Blaming the decline of fisheries on hatcheries is a similar oversimplification. So we should all be able to see and agree that a complex series of factors contribute to both declines and improvements in fish runs. We need to work on them all....except the ocean condtions which we haven't figured out how to control yet. If ocean conditions seem to be the biggest contributor to successfull runs then perhaps Rob and Ramon can file suit in Federal court against nature?

I don't think those of us who vehemently object to WT's methods are saying that hatchery practices do not need reform. The WDFW needs to reform alot of policies and practices in my opinion. The HGMP's are not the end all of salmon hatchery reform...they are incomplete and in need of improvement. The wheels of progress with any government agency are squeaky and agonizingly slow. If we could privatize the management of our fisheries we could speed things up but that isn't going to happen.

I am convinced that WT is not interested in positive reform of hatchery practices but only in the elimination of hatcheries. Some of you give them atta boys and wish them well to keep doing what they are doing and that is fine. Those who disagree with you will keep doing what we do as well in hopes of improving sports fishing opportunities. I suppose between all of this diverse and opinionated effort we will collectively succeed some day.

And finally: I applaud you Rob for getting your hands dirty helping to restore some habitat. If I don't join you with my shovel that won't prove that you care more than I do only that you are doing something positive for fish. Thanks for that.

Now I am going fishing.........................

If my memory is correct here, Washington Trout stated that the WDFW's failure to secure approval for the HGMP's in a timely manner was a major reason for there lawsuit asking for the closure of salmon producing hatcheries.

I just don't see how the settlement giving them time to examine and testify against those same HGMP's might speed their approval?

I apologise old man I should be more selfish like you.But then again I could be lying acording to you I am now a dishonest liar.Go snag yourself some more of your pet hatchery fish before the evil wt closes down the farm.

Cleo

I think you might want to consider joining Rob in anger management class... It could help you when confronting things you disagree with.

and by the way I'm not an old man....

Grandpa, Looking at Cleo's avatar, you and me both are old men

Aunty M now thats just a stinking lie. I never ever , ever said any of thoes things nor implied them... If you cannot be honest please don't talk about me! That is just a flat out lie and you know it..
But why the hell am i explaining myself to the likes of you

The hatcheries in puget sound are the furthest thing from being responsible. READ THE THGMP"S!!!!!

Cleo I'm headen for the Quil right now....are you really sure you want to label me as a dirty no good snagger?

auntym, heres a question for you, if you wanted to join a group that hated and wanted gillnets out of the water, what group would you join ?

Wow I go out fishing for a few hours and release several WILD Coho and look what happens! Another angry personal attack from Rob....go figure....AuntyM I feel sorry for Rob. He is obviously in need of the previously recommended anger management.

Aunty M that wasn't a personal attack! That was me just pointing out what YOU did!

You lied about what i said! pointing out that i don't have to explain myself to a liar is not an attack of any kind just a statement of fact.

If you willing to quit telling untruths then maybe we can have a discussion.

I am going to the Deschutes for 3 days goodbye Please never ever respond to anything i say ever again. I don't like you and you don't like me lets just leave it at that!

auntym, other than washington trout not liking them, i`m sure there are a few other groups.

Aunty

Please do not tell anyone else on this board what I am about to say to you because it is 100% confidential, secret, and private! But my group (CPR-Fish) truly believes that all gillnets really, really suck! Yes, did I say suck? Maybe I may have misspelled that word again!

Cowlitzfisherman