I see alot of people on here that are quick to judge, the worlds current events. Im all for that thats what made america what it is. but I submit the above pics and the following statement

This is not a old A/C its a russian made Mig 25 Foxbat (fighter), it can fly at 2000 MPH and is not a cheap A/C what so ever. The fact this wasnt a bigger story in the news is beyond me for some reason the news reporters down played it. Now if you had time to completly hide a 70 foot 25 ton A/C how hard would it be to hide a suit case with enough anthrax to kill most of the people in the United states. thats right a suit case sized box would be all it takes.....DJ

Well let us know when you find it.

How digging up a MIG proves the existance of a suitcase bomb is beyond me.

Surely we know where the facilities are that these planes are built at (Russia, or at least the old S.U)...can you say the same about a suitcase nuke?

I just say they could hide one easy enough, the thought of hiding an A/C to use lator, just adds to the stickyness of the situation. Im not sure what they have, had or have stashed. I think there was ample reason to take out the leadership there. I actually think we quite bombing to early. Im not mean nor a war monger, but we should have bombed utill the Iraqi people brought in Sadom and turned him over. now we have to put up with this hit and hide tactics. makes it kinda hard to see on the news that more US troops are lost. Its also hard to see people picketing at the front of Base's, Im all for letting the anti-war people picket the state buildings the white house congress etc. but the military just follows orders and the people who target them shoud realise that.

So if you found a bong and a pack of rubbers in your 16 year old daughters car you would draw no conclusions or persue a path to find the extent of the situation? Read up on Occams Razor.

King that was so funny
Then I would realy become a war monger and launch a heavy assult....DJ

"So if you found a bong and a pack of rubbers in your 16 year old daughters car you would draw no conclusions or persue a path to find the extent of the situation?"

Those items are forbidden in my home, therefore their existance would indicate guilt, regardless of the "extent of the situation".

While their non-existance doesn't necessarily prove innocence, it certainly should award her with some reasonable level of trust, however guarded.

We haven't found anything, therefore there are no conclusions to be made except those based on speculation. Thanks for making my point.

This is a really old topic, one that will never be resolved here. Please feel free to respond if you like, but I've said what I needed to say and won't comment again.

Lot's of might's and maybe's don't add up to pre-emptive strike in my opinion nor the worlds opinion. This has all been heavily debated ad-nauseam and I think my pre-war statements turned out to be exactly right on.

I wonder why they are even bothering to dig up this MiG? Wouldn't it just be easier to blow it up in place?

Seems like a rather expensive adventure. Than again, it *is* the military and they are probably bored as hell.

I bet some officer said "Dibs!" and is having his crew dig up this plane so he can send it home!

Or, some engineering crew is bored and decided to dig up a cool jet in the sand.

Either way, cool photos!

As for the WMD, does it really matter now? We were lied to. Plain and simple. For that, Bush will not get re-elected and we will move on. I voted for him once, but not again.

Personally, I'd much rather have a President that couldn't keep his pecker in his pants than one that just outright lies to his country.

All you have are assumptions of the motives. A Katie Couric and 5 oClock King 5 version of what is happining and why. In a notoriusly activist, contrary and liberal community ,Seattle. People live here for a reason they tend to think and want to live differently than people in LA, New York. Occams razor suggests that the simplest answer is generally the correct answer. In the case of this war the simple answer is to end terriorism agaist our country and allies. There are also very simple reasons why it is playing out a certain way publically and one would be ill informed at best to draw any conlusions by what they see in the main stream media. To point this out you need to go listen to people speak that have been to Iraq and hear first hand how stable and normal the vast majority of the country is today. Have you read or seen anything on any news channel that will show you this?

Here is a piece that a friend wrote. He is closely attached to a Military unit serving in Iraq.

Some of us remember the Fatwas and Jihad the Iranian mullahs issued way back in the late 70s. Those are still in effect today. The mullahs are the driving force for the muslim terrorists.

Pull out your world map book and look at Iran. We have the eastern flank now of Afghanistan. Predators, SPECOP snipers and patrols interdict the Afghanistan/Pakistan border so no weapons or troops get in or out.

We also control the western flank of Iran, Iraq. We control the flow of arms there with the same methods

It's called cut off and contain. The Ayatollah Homeni's grandson hisself in Iran is making noise that Iran must change. The mullahs are soiling their robes with all the Crhistians In Action work there now.

WMD? Oil? Imperialism? Nope, that's not why we're in Iraq. We're taking the battle to the terrorists and doing a pretty darn good job of it. Don't be surprised if we roll Iran with armor if the revolution our spooks are trying to get started doesn't succeed.

The true impact of Iraq appears in this assessment by an air commando vet:

It reflects what many of my colleagues are saying...the job is not finished, but we are winning at every encounter with the bad guys...however, casualties can’t be the measure of our success...after all, one of my planning buddies pointed out, the UN said there would be 500,000 casualties in the first three days of fighting...we aren’t even close to that on either side...from the US planning perspective, 14,000 was the estimated number of casualties...if Bush thought that was an acceptable trade to take down the threat of Saddam, then he certainly isn’t going to flinch at the daily deaths reported so widely by the national news sources, especially when he is getting objective reports that detail how well things are really going on the ground.

I still haven’t seen anyone connect the dots yet about isolating Iran using Iraq and Afghanistan as a US controlled buffers that restrict overland travelin and out of Iran. The Iranian trained terrorists now find it much more difficult to travel to the Syrian/Lebanon staging ground for Hamas and the rest of the Muslim murderers who plot the destruction of Israel from that safe haven. The strategy from day one after September 11 was to isolate Iran and its hate-mongering Mullahs despite the suspicion of the Saudi’s and their complicit funding of terrorism through Islamic charities. On the East, Afghanistan and Pakistan form a boundary that requires deception, planning, and more difficult travel routes in order to infiltrate those countries. The presence of US technology overhead is a constant threat to the terrorists and their safe passage into target populations of their destination. The same is true on the West...Iraq is now dominated by a US presence that make a traverse of the northern route to Syria impossible without deception and better planning on the part of the Iranian terrorist groups. This strategy is showing some results in the Syrian-Jordan area as intercepts of terrorist convoys disguised as regular commercial truck traffic has been greatly increased. The best example of that is the Syrian border conflict a few weeks back where the Syrian border guards tried to assist the smugglers in running the border and paid the price for their belief that we would let these guys roll into safe haven without a fight.

Our strategy of isolating Iran will never be acknowledged by DoD, but I’m sure you recognize your favorite SECDEF, our man Rummy, as a critical thinker in the evolution of this policy of isolating our enemies...can you spell containment?...same strategy, just a different application for a different enemy.

Another reason for the removal of Saddam was the need for a staging ground for US forces outside of Saudi Arabia. PSAB (Prince Sultan Air Base) is now a ghost town compared to what it was five months ago. The US presence in Saudi has been reduced considerably because our forces are now using airfields in the western deserts of Iraq. This has not been lost on Syria or Iran. We can strike Syria with enough airpower to render their entire military capability useless in less than 15 minutes. In the case of Iran, we have three directions from which we can assault their airspace. They only have enough airpower to oppose one assault corridor...and most of that is focused on the southern route since that has been the traditional assumption of entry from Qatar and Bahrain. The east and west routes are lightly defended relative to the south...and from the north, it is an open door to Tehran if we chose to stage out of one of the ‘Stans where we now have a formidable logistics presence.

In any analysis of this strategic plan of isolating Iran, one must conclude that it is remarkable in its flexibility and brilliant in its simplicity. Best of all, it is based on solid military science and tactical considerations that require political patience, military discipline, and the determined focus of strong leadership on winning the war by eliminating the bad guys and governments that support them.

NAUSEAM? my ass

Occams razor suggests that if you scour the country for WMD's and don't find any, the simplest expanation is there aren't any.

My head, on occasion.

Maybe a really big dog buried the mig?

clifford the big red dog? I was in Iraq the first time. I seen lots of things that I dont often think about. You got to remember these people are constantly bombarded with the need to hate the infadels. Im not sure if what we are doing is right to this day, but my friends who are still flying with my old unit are there busting ass and I like to give them all the support I can....DJ

Hey, DJFISHS2XS, I don't think it's an issue of supporting our troops. I think the real issue is that we don't support our leadership here.

I might not support our CIC, but I fully support our troops!

I still dig those photos. Very cool.

Now, if they were digging bongs and cases of rubbers out of the sand, you'd have my attention.

The fact that there are WMDs is clear and even the opponent countries conceeded to the presence WMD's prior to the war. What they did not agree on was the threat level. Where they are now is an issue. Right and wrong can only be detrmined after the conclusion of an event. To judge the administration on such a small bit of conjecture is silly at best.

Is it hard to imagine that it may be in the countries best interest not to lay all it's cards on the table and telegraph to the world our strategy and plans. That possibly the WMD issue as a reason to go to war had a bit more marketing advantge to all you experts out there than saying, you know what the cold hard fact is we are going to have to strangle the pipeline of terrorism by isolating , Iran, Syria, SA , Eqypt etc or just out right launch on them. In doing so we have to do it in a way as to not crash the global economy or kill a billion people.
Everyone says they want the truth but just like children sometimes getting what they want is too harsh.

"To judge the administration on such a small bit of conjecture is silly at best. "

Right...that's why you need examine closely its stances on the environment, the economy, and personal freedom as well as its policy of going to war on false pretexts before you judge it to be utterly disgraceful.

So I was sold a story by the current administration because they felt I couldn't handle the truth?? I don't think I like a government that holds such a condenscending view of its constituents.

Someone's watched "A Few Good Men" one too many times.

Go read two books by Tom Clancy. "Sum of All Fears," which is about how some Palistenian (sp) group that blows up a nuke during a Super Bowl in Denver, there is also a movie for the book but is a little different with locations. The other book is: "Executive Orders" which is about a lot of things but one is a biological attack by terrorists in every major city in America using the Ebola Virus. The scarriest thing about it is the fact that it could really happen and Clancy put's that in perspective.

Seems there are some heads buried in that sand.
Support your troops by voting Bush out.

Also, the last I checked, Tom Clancy was in the fiction section. "War of the worlds"...now there's a threat. It could really happen I suppose. Wish we had the technology to blow up all the other planets.

So you all told and tell your wives and girl friends 100% of the truth of your expiriences with other women etc. when dating to allow them to make the best decision possible about you going forward because it's better for them to hear it all and make thier own judgements? Or do you tell them what is appropriate to get to the next level. You certainly would not be advocating a double standard in your life would you.


Open the Kimono on the first date and see how far you get.

we do got that technology stlhead, On the 26th of March 1964 this H-bomb test, Castle Romeo, was one of the biggest ever.

The first H-bomb ever 'Mike' was exploded at 7.15 am local time on November 1st 1952. The mushroom cloud was 8 miles across and 27 miles high. The canopy was 100 miles wide. Radioactive mud fell out of the sky followed by heavy rain. 80 million tons of earth was vaporised. Mike was the first ever megaton yeild explosion.

Castle Bravo was a lithium-deuteride fuelled H-bomb exploded 1st March 1954 at Bikini Atoll. It yielded 15 megatons and had a fireball 4 miles in diameter. It was much bigger than the test crews had been expecting. It engulfed its 7,500 foot diagnostic pipe array all the way out to the earth-banked instrument bunker, which barely survived. Test crews were trapped in experiment bunkers well outside the expected limits of its effects. It menaced task force ships, one of which held Marshall Rosenbluth, a U.S. theoretical physicist, "I was on a ship that was thirty miles away, and we had this horrible white stuff raining down on us. I got 10 rads [100 chest x-rays] of radiation from it. It was pretty frightening. There was a huge fireball with these turbulent rolls going in and out. The thing was glowing. It looked to me like a diseased brain up in the sky. It spread until the edge of it looked as if it was almost directly overhead. It was a much more awesome sight than a puny little atomic bomb. It was a pretty sobering and shattering experience." Bravo vaporised a crater 250' deep and 6,500' in diameter out of the atoll rock. The 'horrible white stuff' was calcium precipitated from vaporised coral.

The Soviets put together H-bombs with a yield of 100 megatons but the design was never tested at full strength.

Fifty years on, the Uranium fission bombs dropped on Japan look relatively puny. The Hiroshima bomb was rated at fifteen kilotons or fifteen thousand tons of TNT. It didn’t take long to discover that, with Plutonium, you could set off a thermonuclear reaction - just like the Sun. There is no limit to the size of these Hydrogen (fusion) bombs but fifteen Megaton bombs (a thousand times more destructive than Hiroshima) were tested in the Pacific in the sixties. The Russians had a design for a 100 megaton Hydrogen bomb but apparently never tested it. Only enriched uranium is fissile enough to make a uranium bomb. Hydrick explained that, at $100,000 per ounce in 1945 dollars, the enriched uranium was well worth the investment in gold to protect it.
XX-39 CLIMAX, part of Operation Upshot/Knothole, was a 61 kiloton device fired June 4, 1953 at the Nevada Test Site.

anyways, theres the technology to blow up planets...

The sides on this issue are still dug in with their stances exactly the same as always....If I wasn't getting ready for our salmon derby tomorrow I might risk a good flaming but sorry fishing comes first....

grandpa2 We agree again! this is getting scary

Yes Rob..there is hope. I like to argue but I like to fish better. Just finished tying up a bunch of theories for tomorrow. Between Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson I almost forgot about political arguments.

like they had to?? saddam had no problem saying so...

what does the arabic writing say? does it say he was involved? or that he's happy an enemy(former friend) got attacked?

Hermann Goering interviewed in his cell at Nuremburg was questioned about his attitude that the common people are thankful for leaders that bring them war and destruction...."Why, of course, the PEOPLE don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war either; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
"There is one difference," the psychologist pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare war."
"Oh, that is all well and good," Goering responded, "but voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

I'm not real clear as to what you are implying here. Is it that it's OK for the government to mislead us, or is it only OK for the government to mislead us when they are trying to screw us?

Help me understand.

I generally avoid these political threads as they seem even more pointless than our fish management squabbles. However, I'll make this exception because of a comment I recently heard that I believe offers some food for thought.

I'm not sorry at all that Saddam has been removed as head of Iraq. But I was bothered by the pretext (WMD & imminent threat that didn't exist) and the execution of a pre-emptive strike. I was thinking that since pre-emptive strikes are now official US policy, we shouldn't be bothered if another country, believing itself threatened by the US, decides to launch a pre-emptive strike against us. Just about that time, someone pointed out that those who think our pre-emptive strike in Iraq was OK shouldn't be bothered a bit by Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. Hmmm, what's good for the goose is good for the gander . . . ?

A smaller scale follow up to this regards the status of the prisoners at Quantanimo - no rights nor access to legal representation, etc. I read that a group of retired military officers filed a friend of the court brief. The basis of their brief is that if the US doesn't abide by the Geneva convention, captured US forces will be redefined in future conflicts as not being prisoners of war, but rather as "foreign combatants."

These are but a few actions that seem like a strange way to make the world a better place.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Shilton,

The point was people expect everyone else to tell them the truth but do not require the same for themselves. They tend to justify their actions based on the situation. Example most democrats I talk with justified Clintons lying about his actions as not important "because it was his personal life" Yet they expect full disclosure on even matters of national security from the opposite party or those people are dismissed as liars.

THEKING, what Clinton did wasn't such a big deal because:
1) The GOP and it's fronts hounded him from the day he was in office.
2) It really didn't affect many lives or world peace.
3) It was a matter of matrimony not public discretion.

Compare that to Bush's lies.