cowlitz - Thanks for your insight. I expect to agree with some and disagree with others, as you do. That's one of the features of your society that makes us so unique. But when some folks make statements that are so blantantly wrong I feel compelled to offer up another view. Yes, I am a biologist. I do not work for WDFW but did at one time.

Like all of us, I definitely want to see our natural resources managed in an appropriate way. But my views seem to diverge with others in that I would prefer the benefits of our harvestable fish and shellfish to be shared according to federal law. If that means putting the State and Tribal managers on the spot and keeping them there, so be it. I think managers need to be challenged too... if it is done in a well-thought-out and respectful manner. Off the soapbox now.

Since Bob said it so eloquently I will say I wish I had read this first before posting my thread.... I still feel that this throwing around of the "B" and "R" words has got to stop. It wont, because it has become such an effective tool at guilting people and shutting them up.
Heck, you know they beat old Michael J. up when he was arrested because of racial prejudice.......

Thanks for the cool-headed post Bob. That is why it's a good thing you are the moderator.

MC

And that "Mr. Brain" is kinda like Congress handling their own salary increases, isnt it.... God I hope you didnt pay a lot for that degree you got..... You are probably the Director of WDFW as smart as you are....

MC

Now THAT"S an intelligent remark.

The "morality police" have entered the building. It always amazes me that some people just assume the State does such a great job managing our resources... and that the Tribes are just another user group. Don't be satisfied to live with your conceptions and prejudices... challenge yourself to find out what is really happening out there. Open your mind.

About all I can remark about this topic is I personally have seen FAR more fish left to rot in neglected tribal nets than I have seen snagged by sporties.

I have not seen a mass of fishermen at the mouth of any river so thick as to virtually prohibit migration of endangered or threatened fish to their spawning beds. But I have seen nets laid out so thick that nothing can escape.

Management?

Riiigght.

Something to check out.
http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/SGLC/tribal.htm

Lets go back to pre Boldt and look at the runs of Salmon and Steelhead in the Snohomish system. Then go back 2 years after Boldt and look at the runs. Not much changed in that 2 years in terms of logging, population, Dams etc. The only thing that changed was the tribal netting the mouth of the system and run size declined drastically from that point forward.

Any ordinary man can clearly read the Point Stevens treaties and see we should abide by thier intent and spirit as they were written and when they were written. I have yet to see reference to motorized boats, fiberglas,Aluminum ,nylon nets ,Loran,GPS etc in the treaties. Afterall These things are the inventions of the whiteman and aboriginal people are trying to preserve thier culture and religion separate from the whitemans influence. Or is it more of a case that the tribes see a special privlige and are taking economic advantage of it inspite of the effect on the resource.?

TheKing,
Did you know the State of Washington made the tribes switch to nets from there normal methods? Check this out
http://www.msaj.com/papers/commfish.htm

I think many of the people on this thread are having a problem reconciling the current state of affairs against the purported motivations of the laws:

"The relationship between the tribes and the anadromous fish had religious significance. One aspect of this was the First Salmon ceremony, designed to insure that the fish would perpetually return. The attitudes of respect, reverence, and concern for the salmon, reflected a profound conception of the interdependence and relatedness of all living things, which was a dominant feature of the native Indian world view. Indian procedures insured that salmon were never wantonly wasted and that water pollution was not permitted."

Apparently the current state of affairs is one geared toward ensuring an equitable financial situation, not cultural preservation. How else can you rationalize a 50/50 split, or any other fractional apportionment?

Finegrain
Woodinville

Duroboat,

Yes. I would expect the tribes to challenge that ruling based on religous claims. Harvesting Salmon is first a religous expirience for the Aboriginal people before any other puropse. According to their oral traditions. The state was wrong to impose upon thier religous beliefs. Whiteman spirits of Mercury, Johnson,Evinrude,dow,Corning,BSF and the Oriental spirtits of Honda and Suzuki are interlopers to their faith:-)

Pacificnw have you ever heard of the word Egotistical???
Look it up some time, it might help you!
But I dought it.
Ramprat

I ask you again pacificnw....what tribes to you belong to? It might help understand your positons better.

And to any person that would sincerely believe in the "religeous significance" of the salmon to the tribes in all of this I would say..... "Have you ever watched them harvest salmon?"
I guess tossing a salmon 20 feet to bounce on the rocks and then be tossed into the back of a pickup could be confused with ritualistic worship. Maybe I am confused here....
I have known A FEW indians in my life that really did see the salmon as a religeous icon, but they only fished for subsitance (no gillnetting) and probably took no more salmon a year than I do..... I enjoyed participating in those "feasts" and also the rest of the religeous acts that went along with it.
Cultural practices are a beautiful thing, whether it is "The return of the Salmon celebration", Cinco de Mayo", or "Independence Day"..... Abusing a resource and taking advantage under the auspice of "Culture" is a crock of BS and needs to end.

MC

ramprat - Yes, I know the definition of the word egotistcal so I guess I don't need help. But what are you trying to say? That you are egotistical? OK by me.

grandpa - You ask again, I answer again; No I am not a member of a Tribe nor am I related to anyone who is. Whats your point? That anyone with the beliefs I have must be a Tribal member? Sorry, can't prove you right.

Not sure why you guys come across as so antagonistic on this subject. I suppose because there are views out there other than your own.

Earlier in this topic I mentioned the word bigot and many people went off on that saying we should not make this a race issue. Since we are getting out the dictionary and looking up the definitions of words, let me offer one...

bigot - one who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc. (Webster's New World Dictionary)

Those that think the word bigot is aimed at them seem to automatically assume this has a racial conotation. But my comments have to do with the commonly held beliefs out there that we non-Indians have some involvement, some say-so regarding the conduct of the Tribal fisheries... the same as if we were talking about a Canadian fishery, for example. The fact of the matter is, we don't. That is the point I was trying to make.

Its just a different view, a different perspective meant not as a personal attack on anyone... just a challenge to see if anyone would like to consider a differing opinion... one that I do not hold onto blindly ;-)

Happy Holidays!

Pacificnw,

I think grandpa should be asking what tribe you work for. Its very easy to see you support the way things are and are very sympathetic towards tribal interests. Its nearly impossible for any sport angler to have sympathy towards tribal Fisheries and be happey with them unless they have tribal interests in mind, (meaning thats where your paycheck comes from?).

Race is not an issue here on this BB but actions are and not agreeing with ones groups actions and voicing your discontent is not bigotry.

The idea that no one has any say over indian fishing and hunting is just plain wrong. We don't have much pull but we do have some. We can prevent the tribes who go off reservation and gut shoot cow elk leaving them to die for no good reason. We can prosecute them for waste and greed. The problem is we don't have the balls to nail their hides to the side of the barn when it is the right thing to do. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with bigotry.

Pacificnw,
If you could truly (OPEN YOUR MIND) as you say you might realize that this post is not about Bigotry but frustration
We are all frustrated from watching over the years, the way that the Indians seem to get special treatment with no regard for our recources.
I have seen Bloated kings in the nets high and dry at low tide that had been there for a long time. Ive seen fish stripped of eggs and left to rot, nets in the river when the river is closed because of endangered runs ect.
This doesn't mean that all Indian fishermen are bad but this is what we see on the rivers.
This is what stands out in our minds, and it gets very frustrating.
On the other hand I have seen plenty of I won't call them fishermen lets say non Indian poachers who snag fish, keep over the limit, Fish closed waters ect.
To come out and use the word Bigot I believe it was something like Bigotry running rampant or something to that effect was probably not the right thing in my opinion to come out and say. Although most of us at one time or another have posted things (out of frustration)we wish we could take back, It really pays to read between the lines before you click the send button.
Ramprat

Only because of folk like yourself that believe nothing can be done. If Canada or any other "Sovereign Nation" were to use and abuse our resource, we would put a stop to it.
I firmly believe that if we can get folks like yourself to proverbially "Grow a set of balls", we may be able to get things evened up a bit when it comes to our precious resources...... Why is it that the far left in this country seems to think it is wrong to tell anyone "NO MORE", even if they are out of line and need to hear it????


MC

I believe that if some of you were born as natives you would be doing what the rest of the natives are doing whether it is right or wrong. The Duck