Just got off the phone with Chad Jackson, a biologist with region 4. He said that the accidental closure yesterday was partly his fault. He has sent a proposal to Olympia which will be signed today to close all Puget Sound stream terminal areas beginning wed. Jan. 21st. He assured me that this will happen next week. The confusion was that the proposal got cc'd to the WDFW officers and they thought it was a directive to shut down those areas on this wed. Jan. 14th! He stated that all areas have had the signs removed and will be open thru tuesday evening.

He also stated that the reason for the closure has nothing to do with the number of fish in the snohomish system. As a matter of fact the snohomish system already has enough fish for their eggtake. However, the puyallup, skagit, and green rivers are way behind and the snohomish system fish will be necessary to supplement them. He stated that as of Sunday the needed a combination of 300 hens from all these systems to obtain their total eggtake goal of approx. 1.1 million eggs. He also said that if this number was obtained before the end of feb. the fishing would reopen through the end of the month.

If any of you actually believe that once they shut us down they will reopen it I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I would like to sell you!!! I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it! I know many of you don't like to fish these terminal areas anyway, but there are alot of people that do. Taking away opportunity is always a bad thing...especially when we are finally having a decent run of winter fish. I'm not sure if we can do anything about this or not, but I would encourage all to call the region 4 office and the headquarters down in olympia and express your feelings over this lost opportunity whether you fish these areas or not. We need to make stands on issues that effect the fishing community together whether they directly effect us or not...or we will never get anywhere!

Good luck,
Canyon Man

Howdy CM,

"Puget Sound stream terminal areas"

I want (actually I don't want to) assume that this would mean any kind of tackle fishing for steelhead?

I did hear a well substantiated bit of data from my neighbor who had talked with the mgr. of the hatchery on the Cascade. The hatchery apparently has gotten in something like 3 fish total, not nearly enough. Says the fish are really getting pounded by fishermen right at the mouth of the creek that feeds the hatchery, but few are actually making the swing up the creek.

Suggestion? If you catch a hen in the Cascade, take it up to the hatchery and donate the eggs. All they want is the eggs, and as I understand it they will give you the fish back once the eggs are taken. This info came from my neighbor who is quite tied in with the local F&W and hatchery groups.

This might be averted if we act quick?

Mike

Hmmm, they had so many fish at the Bogey hatchery that they tried to give them away to the tribe and they wouldn't even take them. It sounds as if they just got dumped ... why not use these eggs and leave the sport op open???

I couldn't agree with you more Bob! They are holding 2000 fish at the bogy hatchery right now why not just supplement with those fish???

Bob what are you doing on the computer aren't you in Aruba?

How much you lookin' to get fer that land Canyon Man!

These terminal area closures happen about every 3 or 4 years on average, and have for as long as I can remember. Last year we had an exceptionally bad hatchery winter run and I'm not sure if they (WDFW) ever met the egg take goal, so that's why these areas were shut down till the end of the season.

In other recent years (98 maybe?) WDFW did re-open the terminal areas once the egg take was achieved. As has been pointed out in other posts, this has been an average to good winter season so far. With the impending high water, I'd bet that the hatcheries get what they need and you'll see the terminal fisheries re-opened till the normal Feb. 28 (or 29th this leap year) season closures.

This is of course my opinion and I offer NO guarantees!

Lost hope isn't warranted. There have been a number of lean years where they have closed Reiter only to open it back up a month later when escapement has been reached, although this usually occurs during the summer run which lasts much longer. We're coming off of some pretty lean winter years in Puget Sound streams; this year at least appears to be an improvement over the last 3; we'll know for sure once the nates have been counted. If they need the fish, they need the fish.

EDIT. Whoa! dejavu 4-salt; we're reading each others mind, but your the faster typer!

Bob's point of the apparent excess of hatchery fish on the Bogey is a good one and worth an inquiry to WDFW. I suspect that the excess coastal fish are either already gone and disposed of or WDFW doesn't want to bring coastal brat genes to Puget Sound streams (a brat is a brat is a brat??). Haven't they done this in the past though? As I said, its certainly worth getting the official word.

Sounds like a great idea to donate those eggs on the Cascade if you catch a hen. Wish I was one doing some donating. I'm wondering with that big flood and the way it changed the river near the hatchery creek if this isn't going to be an ongoing problem?

I was up on the Cascade last Sat. and the hatchery guys have tubes on the bank you can put your hens in to keep them alive. I donated a hen but didn't see anyone else putting fish in the tube. I did see several dead hens lying in the snow however.

Its now official, closure of the Tokul Creek area of the Snoqualmie, Reiter Ponds area on the Sky, and parts of the Cascade and Wallace, effective Jan. 21. These closures are nothing new and they have in fact reopened them in the past after getting enough eggs. It's a bummer, but CM would you rather they not get enough eggs and plant fewer fish next year? I've heard that officials in Olympia won't allow the regional biologists to transfer hatchery fish from the coast to Puget Sound, which makes no sense to me. They all came originally from Chambers Creek stock

I swear, fisheries biologists are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Transfer surplus Bogey hatchery brood to Puget Sound seems reasonable until you consider why they don't. WDFW (formerly WDG) was criticized for the antiquated practice of transfering Chambers Creek steelhead all over western Washington, ignoring the genetic implications. WDFW, trying to improve its fish management act, has been developing locally adapted hatchery broodstocks at the recommendation of many fish biologists, geneticists, AND sportsmen. This means the Bogey hatchery broodstock stays on the coast, SW Washington broodstock stays in SW Washington, and Puget Sound broodstock stays in Puget Sound. Even more so, they are trying to maintain separate Skagit, Snohomish, Green, and Puyallup broodstocks so they aren't required to dip in to the Chambers Creek fish every year like they used to. In effect, the experts and the sportsmen have said that a brat is not a brat is not a brat - that they are different in different watersheds. In order to comply with this management policy, they have to get broodstock returns at all those stations intended to receive broodstock. You have choices. You can harvest those returns when they are in short supply and forego the egg take and subsequent hatchery smolt production that I'm sure you would be back here on the BB complaining about. Or, you can forego the harvest to ensure the egg take. But in years of short supply, you just can't have it both ways. Should WDFW always have a vote on which way to go before taking a management action to obtain hatchery broodstock?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Thanks Salmo...
I think what you are saying is really important... I would hate to see the Bogey fish all over the state, While the fishing there can be phenominal most of the fish seem to be a carbon copies in the 5-6 lbs range... I would hate to see some of those big bruiser hatchery fish wiped out of all of the rivers.

I've always liked the idea of native brood stocks... but I reallize it does have its limitations.

Salmo:

Very sound wisdom.

Thanks also for the good explanation...makes sense.

I have heard there is good number of Steelhead in the Skagit, and seems reasonable in that they travel the Skagit to get to the Cascade. As to the good spots to fish...well...I'm learning so can't give much help there...but there is mucho bank access on both the north and south sides from Concrete up to Rockport.

Mike

Mike

here is the info on the river to be closed

here is the info on the river to be closed

Fishing closes on several Puget Sound rivers
for collection of hatchery steelhead broodstock

Action: Fishing for all game fish including steelhead will close on sections of the Cascade, Skykomish, Wallace and Snoqualmie rivers and Tokul Creek.

Effective date: Jan. 21 through Feb. 29, 2004

Species affected: All game fish including steelhead

Locations:

Cascade River from its mouth upstream to the Rockport Cascade Road Bridge
Mainstem Skykomish River from 1,500 feet upstream to 1,000 feet downstream of the Reiter Ponds outlet
Upper Wallace River from the railroad trestle (downstream from the Highway 2 Bridge) upstream to the mouth of Olney Creek
Mainstem Snoqualmie River from the Plum Access boat launch ramp (located approximately one-quarter mile downstream of the mouth of Tokul Creek) to Snoqualmie Falls
Tokul Creek from its mouth to the posted cable boundary marker (approximately 700 feet upstream of the mouth)
Reason for action: The return of hatchery winter steelhead to Puget Sound hatcheries for broodstock purposes are well below required numbers. The closures are necessary to protect adult hatchery fish holding near these WDFW hatchery facilities until they can be trapped to meet broodstock needs.

Other Information: If egg-take requirements are assured prior to the end of February, the closed areas will be reopened to fishing for game fish.

At what point should hatchery plants in rivers such as the Green just be given up on? I mean seriously, they plant almost as much smolts in the Green as they do in the Sky and year after year, they don't get any back. I know people who own property on the Green who fish the Sky and the Snoqualmie every year because they can't catch fish in their own backyard. I'm sure there have been a few more, but I personally only know one person who has caught a hatchery fish on the Green this winter. Seriously, they should just give up on it. If the tribes want a hatchery run, let them run a hatchery.

I caught and released a hatchery fish on the green this year. I also say many, about 12, fellet steelhead in the water by the boat ramp. I actually glad to see that it is not closed.

Salmonbelly- I have no problem whatsoever with them needing to get their eggs. As a matter of fact why don't we just treat it like the summer fishery and leave all these terminal areas closed until the total eggtake is received! My problem is with the lack of communication between different offices in the WDFW and the unwillingness to be progressive in their thinking. The response I got was that this closure was going to happen whether they got their eggtake goal this week or not. That makes no sense...especially if they are specifically stating that it will reopen once the egg goal is achieved. Also, if you have fished the snoqualmie terminal area for many years you know that on a decent fish year their will be new fish showing up all the way through feb. Right now there are probably 150-200 hatchery fish sitting up in the closed section of tokul creek. Why can't someone from the hatchery or WDFW transport these fish and avoid a fishing closure all together. The answer I got was that it usually is not necessary because those fish will back down eventually and go into the hatchery...yes after we lose a couple weeks of prime fishing! Just don't like the precident this sets.

When we got kicked out of the cable hole on Wednesday, another fisherman asked the game warden why they don't net those fish in the upper Tokul Creek and transport them to the hatchery. The game warden said, and I quote, "That would defeat the purpose." He would not elaborate further.

I have to vent...this just pisses the crap out of me! So when the hatcherys already have extra fish (bogey, tokul) they decide to close all of the terminal areas, great levaes me along with my fellow bankies screwed over. Why is WDFW so messed up when it comes to this, a brat is a brat. so why not use the extra fish and put them down on the green? If anyone has answers i sure would like to hear 'em! GRRRRRR why are they so dumb??

KJR has a Saturday AM outdoors radio show … anyway the guy (can’t remember his name) from fishskagit.com said that Fortons also would be closed. Makes sense but it is not what I read on the WDFW web site. Anyone knows what gives?