who would you vote for if the election was today?

ABB

Any other choices????

What about Al Sharpton?

Grampa, that would be sweet if Al got the nod!

ABB

None of those choices. I back Bush!

ABB!!!

Fred The Pencil

I thought this BB was more lieral than what I am seeing? Guess the conservative ones just dont say as much

Bush got my nod.

Bush Hands Down

Sorry to disappoint you, Bush is the man.

Though he won't be getting my vote I do think Bush will probably win, I don't think he has handled the middle east very well, I don't think we need to make it easier for illegal immigrants to get in, and I don't think we need to waste money putting men on the moon and Mars (how about spending those billions studying our oceans) maybe when he decides to put a man on Uranus some of you will think twice.

Bush was obviously opposed to men on Uranus...

didn't you hear the part about morals and the sanctity of marriage??

Crimine sakes, John Edwards finished 2nd in Iowa, shouldn't he be on the list? There's a good chance he'll come in the top 3 in NH and 1st/2nd in S. Carolina... Seems a little premature to count him out.

Dean is my pick, followed by Edwards. I will, however, vote for whomever the democrats nominate as I just can't vote for another four years of Bush. Any president who would even consider allowing illegal aliens a free pass just isn't worthy of the office. Protection of our borders is a primary responsibilty of a country. In fact, its at the very core of what it means to be a country.

You do realize that it's part of the democrats platform to give illegals a free pass, right?

The Dem's haven't had their convention yet, I can hardly see how it can be a part of their platform since it won't be named until then.

Some Democrats are for it, some against it, as are most (in my opinion) Republicans. I don't care how many of either party care for it, I just care that the one in office doesn't. Most of the Dem's running are against Bush's plan. While earning citizenship isn't what I like, its better than what Bush offered up. I usually vote republican, but he and his administration should be punished (taken out of office) for what they've done in the last 4 years and are trying to do currently with his immigration policy. While it pretty much has a snowballs chance in hell of becoming law, it might sway latino's in to voting for him.

Looks like this board has more smart people than I thought....over 60% Bush....the lunatic fringe is still on the fringe even here...the home of the bleeding hearts...I thought Democrats were all for more illegals...more voters for them...Hopefully Dean is all washed up ..I think he needs to be institutionalized FAST....

What she said.

Our current president flat out lied to every single one of us to start a war in Iraq.

And you want him back in office?????

Wow.

As posted by BillyBob on another thread

For all of you that thought Bush said he was offering amnesty, he distinctly said he opposed amnesty. Here's what he said:

"Tonight I also ask you to reform our immigration laws, so they reflect our values and benefit our economy. I propose a new temporary worker program to match willing foreign workers with willing employers, when no Americans can be found to fill the job. This reform will be good for our economy -- because employers will find needed workers in an honest and orderly system. A temporary worker program will help protect our homeland -- allowing border patrol and law enforcement to focus on true threats to our national security. I oppose amnesty, because it would encourage further illegal immigration and unfairly reward those who break our laws. My temporary worker program will preserve the citizenship path for those who respect the law, while bringing millions of hardworking men and women out from the shadows of American life.


Here's a link to the entire text.

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/01/20/sotu_speech/

I think Kerry made a very credible showing in Iowa and seems to be a middle of the road Democrat who is not week on defense. I had to laugh when the commentators on "hardball-MSNBC" called Dean's speech on Tuesday, following the calling of the votes, the worst since Dan Quail. Dean will definitely not get my vote, but one thing Iowa showed is that candidates reveal themselves through this process and it doesn't hurt to wait before zeroing in on a candidate.

I haven't even come close to making up my mind yet, though I'm kind of leaning towards either Kerry or Dean.

I'd never vote for Bush...or anyone else who, in the name of defending our "way of life", will take away right after right, and then call me and encourage all the rest of the warhawks in the country to call me "unpatriotic" for not buying into it.

This is the extent of my talking Presidential politics on this BB, so don't bother trying to get me to keep talking about it. I've got e-mail if anyone has any comments to make.

Fish on...

Todd.

How many of the liberals here work for city, county, state, federal govts or are lawyers or college students?

What, exactly has he lied about? We've found no evidence at all that Saddam destroyed the weapons. The bottom line is that nothing can simply cease to exist. If he had weapons in 1998, they still exist in some form or another. No proof or evidence has been shown that they were destroyed, and since it was up to the Iraqi government to prove the weapons were destroyed, President Bush's actions were totally justified. Either the weapons are hidden, given to a different country, or destroyed. IMO, it's least likely that they were destroyed. All Saddam would have had to do to avoid the war would be to show where the weapons were destroyed and the inspectors could have verified if they were or not.

Thanks for posting that link, Jerry.

Here's the part that I don't like: ...match willing foreign workers with willing employers, when no Americans can be found to fill the job.

There's currently over 2 million documented unemployed Americans, and Lord only knows how many have simply given up trying to find a job. As long as illegal immigrants are competing for those jobs at significantly lower wages, legal Americans don't have a chance. Granted, some of them need to be forced to take those jobs, but as long as all the illegals are here, it's too easy to justify staying unemployed and keep sucking up the unemployment checks.

Gharley,

We have the lowest cost food of any developed nation in the world. Are you willing to pay 4 or 5 times what you do now for dinner?

Use Garlic as an example. Some 90% of the Garlic consumed in the US was grown in Calif. Calif started raising the minimum wage a few years ago. Now 95% of garlic consumed in the US comes from China. We vote every day for unemployment with your pocket book and scream bloody murder if our restaurant tab goes up. I think it is a bit short sighted to blame one administration. Ever shop at Walmart, Target? You are voting with your check book to send jobs to China, Mexico etc. How about buying clothes. Look at all the labels in your closet or drawers and tell me how many made in America labels are there. Less than 5%. The only way to keep employment is to pay more for the things we buy to keep manufacturing at home. Have you been doing your part 100% of the time or do you want a low cost of living and blame Bush for the consequences?

Well, George Bush works for the Federal Government.......but I don't think he's a liberal.

Todd-

What rights have been taken away from you?

Papaslap

I think he may have been referring to a lot of the places we, as fisherman can no longer go in the name of security. Around dams and such....

I think a Kerry/Edwards or a Kerry/Clarke ticket would be a force to be reckoned with this coming November.

I wish we could get John McCain to change party affiliation.

Theking;

You're quite a patriotic sounding flag-waver - which makes me wonder why you put your pocketbook ahead of the lives and welfare of legal Americans. Personally, I don't mind paying a few dollars extra for something if I know America and Americans are benefiting from it. I blame this administration because it's willing to take jobs away from needy Americans.

BTW, both my wife and I are retired federal employees. In fact many of our friends and loved ones are still working for the feds in a rather large sandbox many miles to the East of here.

"Personally, I don't mind paying a few dollars extra for something "

Easy to say but does the manufacture origin tags on yours and most peoples purchased items reflect this? I doubt it making every one a part of the problem. This started long before GW and will not end with GW. What he proposes simply makes an issue more measurable. A classic case of shooting the messenger.

It sounds very similar to the H1B visa program which has been abused to offshore white collar jobs putting millions of middle class americans out of work. The H1B visa program is supposed to have the same intent...fill positions that can't be filled by an American. However, and Corporate America should be prosecuted for this abuse, when Y2K was approaching corporations whined that there weren't enough skilled tech workers pushing congress many times to raise the number of H1B visas. When Y2K passed they began downsizing American higher paid workers and training the H1B visa holders, mostly from India, in order to begin the transition overseas. H1B visas are often times slave labor because if the holder loses his job he is also booted from the country. Only this year is the number of H1B visas being lowered but it's too late. The damage/transition has been done.
First manufacturing jobs then white collar and it's not stopping at tech workers either. Accounting, tax prep, debt collection, stock analysis, anything that can be transmitted as data back and forth is going away rapidly to other countries. All on your behalf to "lower prices". Yeah right.
This new proposal does not specify "migrant farm workers" as people seem to assume. What will happen if this new proposal becomes law is that businesses will begin to post openings for any job that might not have been outsourced at rock bottom pay. When no American is willing to accept a salary which cannot cover their living expenses the business can now hire a foreign worker here in the USA. Notice there's no mention about "prevailing wage". Think you can't be replaced by a foreigner? Think again. They can hire two or three for the price of you.
One more reason not to vote for this insanity. You give this guy another four years without having to worry about re-election and you get what you deserve. Before you ask no I haven't been replaced yet but it's coming my way soon. And, I don't consider myself a liberal. I'd have voted for McCain in a heartbeat. At least the left is offering up some stop gaps like removing tax subsidies from these companies. Like that will ever happen but who knows. I say they should go further. You want to act like a foreign company then you will be treated like one.

Good Point. I try to buy American as much as I possibly can. Globalazation is going to make that an even bigger challenge than it already is. I also try to avoid purchasing products from 'American' Corporations who 'locate 'offshore to avoid Federal Income Taxes. Those same Corporations tend to export the so called 'Family Wage ' jobs overseas I have noticed. As a citizen , taxpayer. and business owner , I find that behavior appalingly un-patriotic, and encourage others to research what they buy. Globalazation could be a good thing, but as it is turning out, it would seem to be about larger profits for multi- nationals, and less about open markets and raising the standard of living in tihird world nations, as it has been presented in the past. Buy American, and make sure your friends do too. It's the right thing to do for the country, and your fellow citizens !!! (PS. Anybody but Bush, leaning towards Sharpton Grandpa :0, I think Sharpton is really Don King, Iv'e never seen them together at the same time)

The Levi Strauss company no longer has ANY manufacturing plants in the USA ....Should they have just gone bankrupt to stay "American"? All of you complainers on this thread should consider what you are saying about George Bush stealing all of the jobs from Americans....That is sophomoric and shows how shallow your thinking is and how broad your bias. Would any one of you jump in your volkswagon bus and drive to California to pick beans for $3.00 per hour? NO....Can you make a pair of jeans here and compete with all the jeans made in Malaysia and China? NO

Why is Microsoft outsourcing to India? Because of George Bush? NO....Will they stop if Howard Dean becomes president? NO

This crap brings out the worst in us here on PP. Some of you only come out for these no win debates about politics. Why not try to focus on the myriad of fishing issues staring us in the face right now.

So you make your political argument and then bash others for arguing politics?
Where did I say George Bush was responsible for all of the lost jobs? He is, however, encouraging more lost jobs. It's not about someone picking beans. That's how it is being sold to you and you choose to believe it. Jobs that can be offshored are being offshored. Jobs that can't be offshored are going to go to incoming immigrants willing to work for less under this proposal. And get this, you will be training them to replace you.
There is a concerted effort to drive down wages in this country. Believe it now or wait until it hits you.
Anyway, I tried hard to bite my tongue. I see nothing positive about this president. And I see nothing being done to benefit the american people.

BUSH

no doubt about it!

I agree G2.............and that makes me a little scared, both because I agree with you on this, and that the outsourcing of jobs will continue ....no matter who is President. I was a little sad to hear about Levi's last week, but it has been coming for a long time. It's just one more product I won't be buying. Can I even get dressed w/o Levi's? ........I' am going to find out, that's for sure. How about the rest of you?

It will be interesting to see if the election follows the pole results on this forum.

I'm leaning towards Edwards because I think he is the only one with a chance of beating Bush. The democratic candidates are more fiscally conservative than Bush. The democrats are more liberal on environmental issues too. Bush is bad for salmon and steelhead.

Actually there is a concerted effort to raise wages in this country. Many politicians want to raise the minimum wage to $10. Now that minimum wage would cover the jobs the illegals take along the border states especially. Washington State has the highest minumum wage at I think $7.15hr. The reason things are being outsourced and illegals are coming here by the millions is that Americans have lived so long with the government giving to them and unions fighting for them that they constantly want more and more and more...

I am biased I guess as I have very rarely been paid a wage in my life. I don't punch the clock and don't belong to a union or work for a state or federal agency.

Oh I almost forgot..When you Bush haters fill out your tax returns this year please send all that extra money you will receive back to the government. If you pay taxes that is.

Exactly grandpa. I don't care how nuts he is he saves ME money. That is what is utmost important to me. They have been getting way too mcuh of our money for too long and he gave some back. Thanks George.

ON a side note, I searched high and low for a clip of Dean's war cry on the web. Fox had removed their link and one other that had video had removed it as well. Wish I could find the video. I wonder what the deal was with Fox taking it down? I'm so disgusted that my union endorsed Dean a month ago.

Glowball

I see the picture of your kid in your avatar and it makes me wonder. Have you thought about the fact that he will be paying for the deficit Bush created for the first 30 working years of his life?

P.S. that is a great picture

Actually Grandpa it's you who should be turning in your dollars. It will be put to good use and eventually trickle back down to you. More tried and failed Reagonomics. The slight tax cut you receive does not come close to the extra dollars you are paying at the pumps, the energy scam played upon the west, the fake natural gas shortage, etc.
This president is spending more money and his percentage increase in spending is larger than any other president. The bubble has to burst eventually. Or maybe a new president can prevent that. I see the election going either a slight edge to Bush or he will lose in a land slide. Remember, he didn't win the majority vote the first time around and voters are much worse off now.

That's the best part, grandpa2! Bush gave us all that money back to "jump start the economy". What did I do with all those nice greenbacks Uncle George gave me? I invested them. Not a dime went directly back in our economy.

Bwahahahahaha!

Thanks Uncle George for many thousands of dollars I will see many years from now. Man, I love it when the Gov-Ment gives me free investing capital!

Still not going to vote for the man, even if he does give me lots of free money.

I'm sure many have seen the picture, shows a very attractive gal, nude and shaved......and under the picture says:

"Vote democratic, NO MORE BUSH !!!!! "

that said..........off fishing!!!! Such a tough time to decided what river to fish..retired life is sooooooooo mind bending.

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

Just vote.

You don't hafta go on and on and on about why..............just vote your conscience.

By voting, you're doing more than HALF the people in the country do on election day.

Kodak is eliminating 12,000 jobs. They will stop selling film cameras in NA and W Europe. Why because digital cameras are so popular.
Lets find a way to blame it on GW .

Parker you work for the State so you get a lot of free money. More holidays and benefits than any private company. Plus you have to work half as hard as anyone else and they cannot fire you.

Figure it out! Unless you hid your money under your matress it went directly back into the economy.

Parker....no personal attacks now..I notice that my tax bracket went down by I think 2%..I don't know about you but to me that is serious dough. My daughter will get $1000 for her child this year too...I know that money will get spent. Don't know who to actually thank but I know it ain't Howard Dean.

Looks like atleast 60% of the folks on PP are smart.

Sure..............most likely top-heavy with rocket scientists and brain surgeons. Maybe one could give George a transplant.