I'm thinking of picking up some flourocarbon leader for sat mornings efforts (low and clear rivers).
I've noticed a huge cost difference in leader material vs. mainline material?
I also remember John Keizer of Puget Sound Salmon Charters saying to stick to leader material when rigging hoochies for salmon fishing...

my question is more river steelhead orientated though:
when talking steelhead river fishing can I get away with using say Berkely Vanish mailine material in 8lb to save $ ?
Seagar leader material is 19.99 for 25 yards! that's obscene!
I can get Vanish for 12.00 bucks for 250 yds. @ Freddies...?

And back to saltwater salmon;
why is Keizer saying to stick with the true leader material as opposed to just using heavy mainline spool flourocarbon material?

I have never used flourocarbon leader but have enough friends who have and I would never use it from what they have told me. Breaks super easy and many a fish have been lost to it. Anyway that is what I have heard.

Dont waist your time with the berkley vanish mainline. I put it on and fished it one weekend. Then took it off didnt like the feel and lost way to many fish. I do use the seagar florocarbon leader and like it . It is a lot more resistant to abrasion and works good. It is expensive but worth the money.

I lost 2 nice fish this winter because my fluorocarbon leader broke. That stuff has less stretch and is more brittle than conventional mono, and so it will be more likely to break on a fast-running fish.

Of course, I was using FC "mainline" material for my leader, as opposed to FC that was specially made as "leader" material. The FC leader material might be more durable and have more shock-absorbency, but I am not taking any more chances. I ditched my FC and moved to 20lb test leader.

Of course, it could have been my incompetent fishing that caused the break offs...

Last year I switched to 8# P-LIne flouro "coated" line for my leaders and my catch rate improved significantly. This is mono line with a flouro coat

What I like about it that it is less brittle, havent noticed any abrasion problems, it holds a good knot, has no memory, small diameter, and still has some flex. Plus it is clearly less visible -- pun intended

All the good stuff about flouro and seemingly none of the bad.

Seaguar is the best leader material out there. Vanish is the worst. Be careful in tieing knots in fluro as its "stickier" when you tighten the knot.

Ditto what wolverine said. Vanish is total junk. Seaguar is the only flouro I'd use.

I tried the flourocarbon once and that was enough. It kept slipping unless you do that fancy knot they show in the package. Went back to good old maxima.

True FC leader material is very stiff and cannot be used effectively for mainline.
Most folks like to use heavy leader between their flasher/dodger, and their lure. The idea is the action of the flasher/dodger transmits to the lure via that stiffer, heavier line. With that in mind, a super stiff flurocarbon leader (material) should be extremely effective for providing that transmission.
I'd guess that's what John means.
Personally, all I have to say about leader material for fishing here, in fresh and salt, is UG. Like most, I don't use flurocarbon (anymore). My main peeve is that it doesn't tie good knots, (even the limper stuff designed for mainline) when compared to a slick-surfaced monofiliment like UG.

J.D.

Vanish works great if you know how to use it. Firstly, any time you would want to tie a clinch knot, you need to tie the improved clinch knot. The normal one will not hold. also, you need to make sure the knot is very wet when you pull it tight. Also, pull it tight slowly. I personally use 14 lb Vanish on a regular basis and have never lost a fish to it. I've even landed 17 lb chums in heavy current using it.

Also, I've only used the leader material.

I use 8lb Vanish for leader and tippets in the summer. It's accounted for several steelhead. I have never noticed it to be more fragile than mono.

Okay... I agree completely that Seaguar (leader material) is the best and that Vanish sucks! I lost three kings in a row with 30lb Vanish leaders. So I started tieing 20lb maxima stading on the river and didn't loose another fish that day.

The beauty of FC though is in it's refractive index and consequent near invisibility. Take a lesson from tuna chunkers and use the lines invisibility to bump up your line test to make up for poor knot strength. As an added bonus you will get better abrasion resistance.

I have experimented with Seaguar, Triple Fish , Vanish and Stren with mixed results.
Right now, I have settled on Stren. A spool only costs $11.99 for 250 yds ( from memory) and I am running 17lb test with 12lb Riverline for main on my bait rods and 12lb Izorline on my plug rods. The 17lb Stren breaks before my mainline almost everytime. It seems to have worked out well so far.

Just my .02

I wonder if there were were some bad batches of Vanish or what the story really is. I bought a 3000 yd spool of 12 lb Vanish and began using it for mainline a few years ago. I loved it. I thought it was very solid and held up well to abrasion.

I remember a fish that made it to the far side of a huge mid river rock then headed down stream. I was sure the line would fray and break, but my buddy was able to wade out and lift the line off the rock, and I landed the fish, a wild 12-pound female. When we looked at the line it was trashed. There were long filaments hanging off the linE, but it still held. I couldn't have been more pleased. Now I seE many guy saying it has poor abrasion resistance and I assume they know what they are talking about. Maybe different batches?

My line failure with Vanish wasn't at the knot and wasn't abrasion related. I came up with half a leader for no good reason three fish in a row. I am suggesting that it's wet breaking strength is ridiculously low.

This was several years ago when it first came out, maybe it has changed but I am not willing to give it another shot.

I have a question for you, Dave ( or anyone). I cannot think of a reason necessitating zero visability mainline. Why would you use flourocarbon mainline for salmon or steelhead?
I would choose straight mono or a smaller diameter braid with zero stretch over flourocarbon anyday.

Just curious.

Last year I bought some 50 lb. Stren fluorocarbon line for hoochie leader material and decided to check out the invisibility claim. I put a piece of 50 lb mono and 50 lb fluorocarbon in a glass of water and expected to see a clear difference. I didn't see any---they looked exactly the same.

So, I went to the websites of Yo-Zuri, Seaguar and Stren and sent them an email using their "Contact Us" button. I asked them, "Is your fluorocarbon line less visible in water than mono of the same diameter? If so, why is that?" Stren got back to me and referred me to their website to read all their advertising. I answered asking for their backup data. They don't have any. They referred me to a distributor in Florida who never responded to my request for more information. They also referred me to a magazine where a writer did his own evaluation and said he saw a difference when he put a colored background behind his test tank. Fact of the matter is, Stren has no data to back up their advertising. Seven months later, I have yet to hear anything from Yo-Zuri and Seaguar. So much for customer service. I would think if they had solid proof, they would be eager to share it. And I would be happy to see it.

What I see in the advertising for fluorocarbon line is that what the advertising says is all true, but what it implies is not true. Is fluorocarbon line almost invisible? Yes. Is mono almost invisible. Yes. Is fluorocarbon more invisible than mono? No advertisement makes that claim. However, it is clearly implied. Is the refractive index of fluorocarbon line closer to water? Yes. Does that make the line less visible than mono of the same diameter? The wording of the advertising cleverly avoids the comparison. Here's what a Seaguar ad says, "its low-light refraction properties render this line almost invisible in the water." The same can be said for mono.

The refractive index only indicates how light is bent when it passes into the line and out the other side. All of the light is still there. The bending removes none of the intensity of the light nor does the bending make the line look like water more than mono looks like water. But the clever use of words in advertising has convinced a lot of people that fluorocarbon line has been proven to be less visible than mono while never actually saying it.

If you are happy using it and are convinced that it works, I say more power to you and I wish you nothing but success. Confidence in your gear is important. I'm happy using four scents on my salmon gear and some guys would undoubtedly call that overkill and way over the edge. As long as it works for me, I'm sticking with it.

I have also used quite a few FC lines out there and I have to say that I have had nothing but bad luck with most of them. I lost several fish on Vanish, it just seemed to break for no good reason. The Stren is better but also seems to break for no good reason, at least in my experience with it. I tried a Japanese made FC called SightFree Aeroflo. In my opinion it is the real deal. I have had great success with it. As far as the invisibility with FC lines are concerned we used an underwater camera and filmed some different sze FC leaders. In the 4 and 6 lb. range the FC was undetectable to our camera in slightly stained water. Once you got over the 6 lb test it became visible. The larger the diameter the closer to mono it looked. Over 10 lb test I think there is no difference detectable to the human eye but I cannot speak for a fishes eye. It is hard to justify paying 9.00 bucks or even more for fifty yards when you can get close to the same performance with some of the great copolymers out there. And just to throw in a curve, I have switched to using braided line for leader material just to see what would happen and the last time I went out I caught just as many fish as the guys that I was fishing with. How this will equate to a summer run in a gin clear river I have yet to see but right now I'm tying up with powerpro leaders the fish really don't seem to mind.

You guys must not have watched the Gladiator! Even in those old days they knew and the crowd was cheering: maxima, maxima , maxima

I was fishing with light line and a jig. No leader. Just jig and float.

Aha! That makes perfect sense. Why didn't I think of that. We all learn something once in awhile, right?
Thanks