After 20 pages of discussion, the thread finally calms down and it was closed. It doesnt make much sense. What's the deal? It was just about to get beyond the insults and you chose to close it. I'm pretty sure I wont get the real answer, but thought i'd ask anywho......

Hairlip,

Just print it out and you wont need to buy toilet paper for a few days...

Closing it was a good thing

Oh, I dont know Piper..... I have septic.

I wont argue some of it was personal. Some of it was productive. But most of it needed to be said. I am better informed because of it. The timing is what i cant understand. There were several times I thought it was close to getting the axe, and I appriciated the patience from the moderators. If it made sense to leave it open thruogh the insults, why close it at a point where they had stopped? It leads me to think that this BB is very political, and a bit of "political muscle" was exercised.

I think it was just too long and took up too much space. I for one stopped reading it after 3 pages.

Not sure what "political muscle" you're referring to, but it boiled down to one thing: personal attacks.

The thread was on the verge of being close on a couple of occasions and when I got in from fishing yesterday I had a couple of emailsregarding the personal attacks and that was enough for me.

It had nothing to do with views or the like. If you feel that it has something to do with an opposing viewpoint, please refer to the Town of Forks thread with the discussion between Plunker and I and H20. Very different opinions on a very touchy subject ... but if it remains respectful of one another's views, it will remain open.

one other thing as well Bob... there had not been a different viewpoint raised since about page 5...

pretty much everything after that was nothing but a reiteration of something said before.

What amazes me is that some people actually email Bob complaining about what someone said to them. And it's not the first time Bob has said something about it.

I just can't understand why grown adults have to cry to Bob because someone called them a fat head or something.

Sheesh, sticks and stones and all that stuff. I can't imagine anything someone could say about me here that would compel me to write to Bob and complain about it. I guess I'm just not a whiner.

I dunno Go, what if I told you Harley's suck...

It figures 4salt...

I'll bet you ride a rice burner...

Friggen Honda wusses!

:p

He does have a Honda

He has a Chevy also so all is forgiven.

Yeah, I had a rice rocket back in the day. Kawasaki KZ400. Chambers, Cafe' handlebars, the whole bit. Sold it when I was 19. Ain't rode with any regularity since.

Been known to put a little Uncle Ben's in my Yamaha outboard too! Probably'll do it even more now with gas prices the way they are and all...

Goharley

I couldn't agree with you more!

Was it the "bad hair day" that get people all excited ????

4salt

We would be in really big trouble if we ever got back into that rubber ban war!

Now those were the days when men were men!

Oh oh, I did it again!

he he he... Judging by that picture you posted you're having one of those every day...

Now if that dont explain a lot... :p




Yo 4salt... I started on a yamaha DT100 (Yeah, the old enduro) top speed 45mph and you always new where I came from... (just follow the trail of blue smoke)

Piper

I have seen you in your posted pictures, and believe me, you know all about those "bad hair days"

Hairlip ... The appropiate folks from the WSC can address your other questions if they wish, they stop in here from time to time.

I have nothing to do with the implementation of the WSC site other than being the purchaser of the domain several years ago.

I have never been a board member of the WSC myself ... don't know what information you saw that said otherwise. The idea for the group did come about on the board and I did attend the initial formative meeting. I have been for some time and still am to this day the regional rep for the group out in this area.

Since you have some concerns, I don't know what good it will do, but for the record, the closing of the thread had nothing at all to do with the WSC.

In earlier threads, you opposed the recent WSR regulation. Because of that, I highly doubt you actually want to become a member of the WSC as you just said. So that leads me to believe you are grasping at straws to do what you can to discredit and attack the WSC.

Secondly, I was NOT at the more open discussion that took place regarding my proposed Fish-In. I did not show up at the meeting until 8 as I had to work at 730 and the discussion regarding the Fish-In was at 7 when the meeting started.

Also, as Rich pointed out, the WSC is not supporting the Fish-In...the discussion from what I understand took place in an informal manner prior to the meeting adjourning. Plus, the discussions I had at the meeting regarding the Fish-In took place at a break and after the meeting with fellow attendees (one on one)...some were WSC members, some were not.

4Salt -

You can talk about my mama teaching my sisters how to walk the streets at night, but don't you ever talk bad about my Harley.



My point was that regardless what you or anyone says, I would never email a mod to complain that someone hurt my feelings.

BTW, Harleys made during the AMF years do kinda suck. But regardless of whether you're riding a Harley or import, the important thing is that you're in the wind.

Hairlip, The WSC has nothing to hide nor does it have concearns to"back pedal". You can go to the website and look over our action/business plan and our mission statement is simply who we are. We do need to update our officers, trustees and reps link as well as a few others, but that's what happens with free help =).

Bob is our Regional Rep for the West Oly Pen area.

I must of missed the inquiry for membership numbers, The WSC has approximately 150 members and many supporters, hence a Coalition. Our membership cuts across the cloth of steelhead fishers and is very diverse geographically. I believe the strength of the organization is it is an educational/learning organization that works very hard to uderstand the issues that are affecting wild steelhead. Also, for the record again, We are not anti-hatchery, but we believe in hatchery reform.

What's interesting, in light of the Forks topic, in the composition part of our mission statement it reads-
"The WSC is comprised of concerned citizens determined to reverse the factors that have negatively impacted wild steelhead, and in so doing, restore healthy and viable populations of wild steelhead to the Pacific Northwest. In so doing, wild salmon and other salmonids will also benefit. The WSC represents conservationists, recreational fishermen, businesses that depend upon wild steelhead for their livelihoods, and citizens who seek to preserve the future of the Pacific Northwest's greatest resource."

I am one of the founding board members and was the VP of Membership, now I am the President of the organization. If you are interested in becoming a member, send me an address and I will be happy to send you a membership packet. I can also email you the recent online version of the adipose (our newsletter) if your intersted.

We also host the bi-annual Steelhead Summits where diverse groups are working together on Pacific NW Steelhead issues. We are not just a WSR organization.

I am one of the few who update the website and the only thing that has been added recently is the WSC Wild Steelhead Facts Sheet, nothing else has been deleted as far as I know.

The Forks fish in disclaimer was to simply clairify to readers that the WSC is not organizing the fish in, but I am sure there will be a few members or supporters there to show support for the Forks community.

I'm sure most everyone has heard the phrase: walk a mile in my shoes.

Well a volunteer organization has to put up with volunteers and as such puts up with alot of change. The WSC is no exception I'm sure. It is a volunteer group and not a corporation with paid lobbyists like Washington Trout. It is a small group with a very narrow agenda. Small volunteer groups with very narrow agendas will not always please the volunteers and certainly won't necessarily please the majority of people but they can further their agenda with hard work and persistence. If someone disagrees with their agenda they can form their own volunteer group and oppose them with a different narrow agenda.

AuntyM....All one has to do is express an opinion and there will be a malcontent at the ready to blast that opinion out of the water. I guess that is what debate is all about. The trouble is that each side will always site the "facts" that support their opinions. Both sides always have the "facts" and when those fail the personal attacks and name calling begin.

Grandpa, You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I invite you to read the WSC mission statement before accusing the organization of a narrow agenda. Please read on-

THE WILD STEELHEAD COALITION
MISSION STATEMENT

The Wild Steelhead Coalition (WSC) is an organization dedicated to increasing the return of wild steelhead to the waters and rivers of the Pacific Northwest.

Beliefs of the WSC

Wild steelhead are an important legacy to the Pacific Northwest and have
undeniably been reduced to a fraction of their once historical capacity.
Over harvest, habitat degradation, poor hatchery practices, construction
of impassable barriers to migration, and misguided management strategies
have all contributed significantly to the decline, and in some cases extinction, of wild fish runs.

Without a change in policies and attitudes, these same factors will continue to reduce and extirpate wild steelhead.

Composition of the WSC

The WSC is comprised of concerned citizens determined to reverse the factors that have negatively impacted wild steelhead, and in so doing, restore healthy and viable populations of wild steelhead to the Pacific Northwest. In so doing, wild salmon and other salmonids will also benefit. The WSC represents conservationists, recreational fishermen, businesses that depend upon wild steelhead for their livelihoods, and citizens who seek to preserve the future of the Pacific Northwest's greatest resource.

Policies and Actions of the WSC

To increase fish runs, more wild fish must return to their rivers and spawn. To that end, the WSC promotes year round, catch and release of all wild steelhead in the Pacific Northwest.

The WSC promotes and encourages the development and utilization of fishing practices that result in decreased mortality of wild steelhead and salmon.

Barriers to migration and the degradation and removal of productive habitat have reduced the capacity of rivers to support wild steelhead. In order for fish runs to be restored, the WSC promotes the return of existing damaged habitat to its productive state, and that miles of productive spawning grounds that are no longer accessible to fish be made accessible again.

Hatchery programs must be closely examined and be carried out in such a
manner that the negative impacts on wild fish are removed or minimized.
The WSC stands for the mass marking of all hatchery steelhead, and for science, not politics, to be the basis for the re-tooling of hatchery practices.

The models and policies that drive fisheries management must significantly change. Maximum Sustained Harvest and Maximum Sustained Yield have failed to protect and perpetuate our wild fish, and in many cases have been the driving force behind their decline. New models that are based on factors other than the greatest possible harvest of wild fish are necessary to return fish runs to safe levels.

In promotion of these goals, the Wild Steelhead Coalition is an organization which provides a voice that unites the public, private, and other interests that desire and depend on wild steelhead. The WSC provides a voice for recreational fishermen, businesses whose livelihoods depend on recreational fishing, recreational fishing clubs and conservation groups, united in common goals, through consultation, association, and collaboration with those clubs and groups.

,



That goes both ways G2. It doesnt matter to me if your TU, WSC, PSA, BFD, or CYA. If the legal process says _ _ _ _, that's what you do.

If WSC is feeling picked on, they might consider what the reaction to thier actions will be, before they act. If thier position wont stand up to public scrutiny, it will never be accepted by the public. So if you're willing to wade into the water, you better know what your doing. You could be swept away.


That sounds like democracy to me. The whole point of which is to do what the majority want. An educated, informed majority because of a process called public disclosure. How would the majority accomplish that in this case?


My point is, as long as discriminating decisions are being made, the courts will continue to strike them down. If policies are created without following the rules, they will be rejected also.

How is that helping anyone?

As much as I love this Board, to both read and post on, I believe that Bob has said that he only has about 4000 active members. I do not know if that is still true, so I would yield to his knowledge on that issue. There are hundreds of thousands of sport fishermen in Washington State, and I am pretty sure that even Bob would agree that just because a issue is brought up on his board, that it does no mean that any "public notice" has been given to the hundreds of thousands who don't even know that it exists!

You say
On that issue we are 100% in agreement. That is the public "process". But that does not authorize the Commission to break the rule of law at there end.

I couldn't agree with you more! That is exactly why we must follow the rule of law.

To me, it's not about being able to kill a wild fish as much as it is that "the Commission" did not follow the rule of law. And if law can not be applied equally to all, the fish will never stand any chance for making a recovery.

Double Haul....you just kind of proved my point again....a narrow agenda in the case of WSC is the "wild steelhead" component. I never implied that to be a bad thing, just narrow. The crab convoy was a narrow agenda event too. I was in it. The commercial crabbers have their own narrow agenda (besides spitting on the other side).

The WSR rule was not a decision based on the will of the majority but a rule decided upon based on testimony and a little bit of data from WDFW. That means to me that a small minority with a special agenda can make a difference. I do not fault the vocal minority....after all I am part of one of those at times.

And by the way....I have walked many miles in those shoes.....no need to lecture grandpa

This would be a great time for some kind of Summit, or the like on fisheries. With full disclosure of every aspect of all meetings. Print an understandable, to the point, report of those minutes in the 10 largest newspapers in the state. Send a copy to every post office. If a forum for public input does not exist, create one. Dont have closed or secret anything! Dont exclude someone because you cant come to an agrrement with them. Keep everyone involved. Win a negotiation because your ideas stood up to public scrutiny, and thiers did'nt.

It may cost some $, but it's money well spent. The alternative is one step foreward ,two back. That's what we have now.