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#236469 - 03/10/04 08:51 AM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
The WSC met with 7 of the 8 commissioners in the month before the Feb. 6th commission meeting.
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would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
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#236470 - 03/10/04 09:01 AM Re: Best Organization?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
So Jerry your saying that WSC and Van Gytenbeck did not have a private meeting prior to the commission meeting?

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#236471 - 03/10/04 09:05 AM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
I'm sure that Van was one of the commissioners that the WSC met with.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#236472 - 03/10/04 09:10 AM Re: Best Organization?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Jerry thats not was I was asking...

Did WSC and Van Gytenbeck have a private meeting prior to the commission meeting?

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#236473 - 03/10/04 09:36 AM Re: Best Organization?
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Nothing wrong with private meetings boys..that is what makes the world go around. Private doesn't necessarily mean secret of sinister. ...just face to face ...one on one...best way to get things done in my book.
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#236474 - 03/10/04 10:24 AM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
I will put this as plainly as I can Bruce , the WSC met PRIVATELY with 7 out of the 8 commissioners and Van was one of the 7. The commercial fishing groups have lobbied the commissioners privately for years, I would worry more about them.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#236476 - 03/10/04 10:52 AM Re: Best Organization?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
Grandpa,

You are right of course, "Private doesn't necessarily mean secret of sinister. ...just face to face ...one on one...best way to get things done in my book."

The situation here though is that the WSC met privately with those members at the last minute with the purpose of indoctrinating them with what they called science and facts preventing the opportunity for comment and review by the other parties including the WDFW staff whose science was challenged.

As S malma pointed out, some of the so-called facts and science presented were innacurate and misleading.

The public is mandated to be involved to prevent such miscarriages.
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#236477 - 03/10/04 10:53 AM Re: Best Organization?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Marsha haven’t yourself, Todd and others been harping that if you don’t like the way things are then we need to get involved?? What does getting involved mean to you? Joining WSC and agreeing with you? Now that we’re “involved” you call it a well organized attack and a witch hunt…. I call it getting involved. :rolleyes:

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#236479 - 03/10/04 11:10 AM Re: Best Organization?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
I also find it interesting that those folks that oppose this statewide ruling have refrained from using terms like “Murder”, “witch hunt” and other derogatory phrase’s like some have resorted to Marsha. From what I’ve seen the folks opposing the ruling have been pretty respectful and have stuck to debating the issue based on the facts.

I'm not going to let you turn this thread into another slug fest Marsha, I would prefer that this thread does not get deleted or closed.

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#236481 - 03/10/04 12:06 PM Re: Best Organization?
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Talk about reaching for straws \:D

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#236482 - 03/10/04 12:07 PM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
I'm closing this and the other thread for a couple of hours till I get back from some business----- seems it needs some baby sitting
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#236483 - 03/10/04 12:07 PM Re: Best Organization?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
To take a break from further instigation towards derision...

One of the most respected clubs is the Steelhead Trout Club of Washington .

Here's a snippet from their history:

On Friday evening January 20, 1928 at a meeting in the Wilsonian Hotel in the University District, the Steelhead Trout Club was formally organized with charter members A.A. Paysse, Roger Cummings. V.J. Nichols, Dick Dunn, Andy Braun, Bill Annis, Floyd Ritchie, Louis Ashby, Al Kurth, Al Bloss, Fred and Gordon Hoyt, Tom Myers, S.P. Paysse, Ralph Lyttaker and Ken McLeod. Lyttaker was named president and S.P. "Buzz" Paysse secretary-treasurer.


Some of their accomplishments:

1930 - Activation of first impoundment on upper Newaukum Creek for rearing of steelheads to migratory size and first two circular rearing ponds by County Game Commission at Tokul Creek Hatchery.

1931 - Twelve of its members served on a 31-member statewide committee to sponsor an initiative for state game control, which culminated in passage of Initiative 62 and abolition of the old antiquated county-control system in the November 1932 election.

1933 - Joined forces with the same group and a coalition of commercial fishing organizations to abolish fish traps by Initiative 77 in 1934 election.

1934 - Took lead in organizing Washington State Sportsmen's Council in a statewide group in May of same year.

1935 - Secured over $l million in federal funds for salmon rehabilitation program culminating in construction of Issaquah and Minter Creek hatcheries and biological station, plus screening of irrigation ditches and power diversions in Western and Eastern Washington for protection of downstream migrant salmon and steel-heads.

1936 - Three club members served on 6-man U.S. Senate appointed committee which negotiated final agreement between U.S. and Canadian fishermen, and ratification of Fraser River Sockeye Treaty by U.S. Senate in five months from date of appointment after 40 years of fruitless effort by others. This created the International Pacific Salmon Fisheries Commission; and two members served on its advisory committee for a combined total of 32 years.

1941 - Secured amendment to Federal Black Bass Law to give additional protection against interstate shipment and sale of steelhead.

1942 - Stopped construction of proposed dams on Deer Creek and Stillaguamish.

1943 - Secured legislation at state level requiring approval of game and fishery departments as to adequacy of all fish protective devices before construction of any projects that would change flow of any river.

1944 - Secured federal legislation requiring participation of state agencies during planning stages of all federal water projects.

1945 - Enactment of law that created State Pollution Control Commission with statutory authority.

1946 - Defeated Governor Wallgren's attempt to take over political control of State Game Department and Commission through Referendum 26 by a 7 to I margin.

1946 - Defeated efforts to build flood control dam on Green River six miles East of Auburn and prevailed on Corps of Engineers to move site upstream to Eagle Gorge above the migration range of anadromous fish. Also played major part in preventing dam construction on lower Nooksack River and at Faber Ferry site on Skagit.

1949 - Member, with Club support, authored Lower Columbia River Salmon Sanctuary Act designed to prohibit all dams higher than 25 feet on tributaries of Columbia below Bonneville, including Cowlitz. Passed overwhelmingly in Legislature and reaffirmed in 1957, and again by vote of the people in 1960, but Tacoma's dams were later approved by U.S. Supreme Court through pre-emption of Federal Power Commission. But did get mitigation providing two hatcheries for salmon and steelheads.

1951 - Started successful stream bank access program.

1953 - New gains in pollution control by requiring permits for dumping effluents into state waters.

1959 - Initiative 25 to Legislature to prohibit Cowlitz dams, in which 110,000 signatures were obtained. Club led all others in number obtained and in finance raised.

1960 - Vote of people approved Initiative, but U.S. Supreme Court overruled it. (See comments under 1949 above, also details elsewhere in this booklet).

1964 - Club obtained over 14,000 signatures on Initiative 215 for unclaimed marine gas taxes, leading all groups for number obtained and for passage of $10 million bond issue for outdoor recreation, and later for a $40 million issue for the same purposes. Subsequent activity has been eternal vigilance to maintain the progress already made.

1969 - Under urging of Club and State Legislature named the Steelhead Trout the official 'State Fish of Washington". Feb. 12,1974 - Federal Judge George Boldt showed his contempt for the United States Constitution in his failure to honor his oath of office to defend it when he exploded his dirty bomb on all that is sacred to Americans - the equal protection of the laws to all citizens of the United States, regardless of race, creed or color.

1978 - Club members hatch and plant 116,000 winter-run and 60,000 summer-run steelhead fry this spring for plant in Tolt tributaries.

1974-1978 - The Steelhead Trout Club has been fighting and will continue to fight this foreign Boldt philosophy until victory or eternity, whichever comes first.

more...
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Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#236484 - 03/10/04 03:29 PM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Plunker, the WSC did not present the commission with any info about how many people are for or against WSR( I think that is what you are referring to?). We presented the commission with charts (using WDFW data) showing the decline of steelhead in our rivers.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#236485 - 03/10/04 04:36 PM Re: Best Organization?
wildfishlover Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Duvall
Did the WSC offer to buy the commissioners hookers or anything good? Maybe a free fishing trip on th e OP? Good old back scratching payola?

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#236486 - 03/10/04 04:40 PM Re: Best Organization?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Garcia:
Plunker, the WSC did not present the commission with any info about how many people are for or against WSR( I think that is what you are referring to?). We presented the commission with charts (using WDFW data) showing the decline of steelhead in our rivers.
Thanks for the clarification Jerry - I had assumed thet the recent "Wild Steelhead Fact Sheet" that Rich has been repeatedly posting recently and that appears on the WSC website or much of that information was included in arguements to the Commissioners.

BTW: I don't see where I had specifically alluded to the presentation of information by WSC about how many people are for or against WSR in this thread.

I'll just assume that is in reference to Smalmas correction about the numbers.
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#236487 - 03/10/04 05:00 PM Re: Best Organization?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 300
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
You mean this part of the WSC "Fact Sheet" Plunker? Where did these numbers come from any way?

One thing I know for sure is that when you use numbers and statistics the person or group presenting the statistics can spin the numbers to promote whatever agenda they have. This is a classic case of doing just that. If you want the real picture then refer to S malma’s post where he states the facts.

14. A growing majority of sport fishers clearly prefer a non-harvest plan for wild steelhead. In 1995, 42.3% preferred CnR, 14% preferred harvest, and 43.4% had mixed opinions. In 2001, 49.3% preferred Wild Fish Release, 11.5% preferred releasing all steelhead, 2% preferred to close the fishery, and 33.9% preferred continued harvest (with 3.4% having no opinion). Combined, 65% of those with an opinion in 2001 preferred either CnR or closure for wild fish, even when a river would meet spawning escapement needs.

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#236488 - 03/10/04 05:10 PM Re: Best Organization?
elkrun Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 783
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Surveys are an interesting thing.... I never heard someone quote a survey that didn't support what they believed, even if they knew it was out there. That said, answers can be easily misintrepreted, or even skewed to say whatever you like. Thats common with media surveys.... whatever makes the best story you know! I am always suspect of people spouting out numbers on the board. Most people ask a couple friends or run a poll on a website and call it data. Wrong.... that wouldn't be a fair sampling. Often sampling issues are the biggest problem with faulty numbers. I suspect one or more of these reason are what we are seeing here. a "super-majority" is difficult to get from a large population even on the easiest issue... on an issue as volitile as this, I'd be really surprised if it wasn't closer to 50/50 MAYBE.

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#236489 - 03/10/04 05:12 PM Re: Best Organization?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
That is correct Bruce.

And to quote smalma:

*****

"While it is certainly true that interest and support for WSR and CnR opportunities among steelhead fishers has increased dramatically over the last 2 decades it is my recollection (don't have a copy in front of me) of the 2001 preference survey results don't support your statement:

"As I (Todd) posted on the other thread, WDFW's user preference survey from almost three years ago found that among steelhead fishermen, over 60% favored mandatory release of wild steelhead".

The survey give the folks several choices in response to a give situation - in the case with 60% support they were presented with a river whose wild steelhead were expected to return at less than the basin's escapement goal but whose hatchery run was at acceptable levels. Choices ranged from complete CnR for both hatchery and wild steelhead, to WSR to harvest of both hatchery and wild. In this case more than 60% support at least WSR. However that is far from a 60% support of a statewide mandatory WSR.

In fact the last question of the survey asked what folks thought the annual limit and daily limit should be for wild steelhead. This is the most germane facet of the survey. It gets directly at the issue of angler support of mandatory WSR. If most supported mandatory WSR as you suggest then more than 50% would have picked an daily limit of wild steelhead of ZERO. However more than 70% opted for a daily of 1 or more wild steelhead.

This would seem to suggest that many anglers are willing to accept WSR when there are hatchery fish for harvest but they still may wish to reserve some opportunity for wild fish harvest, especially if they are the only game in town.

My understanding that WSC and your allies couched your arguments to the Commission in support of WSR on recovering depressed wild stocks and protection of the few remaining "healthy" stocks - biological arguments if you will. This continuing after the fact trying to justify the change based on the "urban legend" of widespread support for mandatory WSR or that WSR will support more recreation are examples of revisionary history and only serve to discredit your original position."

*****
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#236490 - 03/10/04 05:25 PM Re: Best Organization?
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Plunker, The only facts that Smalma said were misrepresent were numbers from the angler survey. Nowhere in his post did Smalma say that the WSC misrepresented science as you contend in your post

Plunker
As S malma pointed out, some of the so-called facts and science presented were innacurate and misleading.

I think this kind of innuendo and outright faslehood is what Aunty was calling a witch hunt.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#236491 - 03/10/04 05:34 PM Re: Best Organization?
ROCK Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 494
Loc: Between 2 Mountains
OK " Best Organization" would be all groups comming together to find a solution for the problem.....wont happen cause ya all can't get along!!!!! \:\(
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South King County Puget Sound Anglers

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