Both of these hatcheries have "moved out" excess salmon.........Already!!!!!!

Crying shame, no "legal" salmon fishing allowed on Chehalis above the bridge until 10/1, same with Wynchooee and Satsop rivers. The Humptulips is 10/15, wow, what dart board was used to pick these opening dates???

Probably the WDF decision makers are all fishing the Johns River, and 28th Street. Got no time to worry about "excess fish" and a "early opener"........duh.........

Anyone else hearing the early sales, or give aways, of excess fish from these hatcheries??????

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day work"

My wife's uncle lives @ the Aberdeen hatchery I'll get the word from him and let you know what's up.I'll post it on Monday.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

I heard this happened over on the Hump.. I was at the hatchery the other day and they had a big pile of ice sitting on the ground by where they do this.. There wasnt many fish at the fish intake that there was less than a week before when i was there. There was only a hand full of fish in the holding pins in the Hatchery.. Now as for Aberdeen hatchery ???????

WHEN DOESNT THE STATE DROP THE BALL when it comes to SPORT FISHING????

This too rubs me wrong. I agree they should have done an "emergency opener" like they do "emergency closures" when the numbers just aren't there. Why not open it when the river is plumbed full? I don't get it, the WDFW gains so much during salmon season. Word of mouth travels fast when lots of fish are to be had, lots of mouths mean lots of people buying licenses, tackle, etc... Everyone benifits from "good fishin". I often fish the Kalama for summer runs and springers, that river is set up right. Pretty much, no matter what time of year if it's got a clipped fin, good to great chance it's bonkable if one chooses to. No matter a chinook salmon or a hatchery steelhead, have the choice to retain it. Not so around these parts. Would like to see that change. Another run at it... What about the hatchery fish spawning naturally with wild fish. Most silvers early in the year are clipped, or hatchery raised. We get a late run of hook nose that a better percentage are wild, or un clipped. Maybe I've got this wrong, just seems like that's the way it is, smaller early hatchery fish followed by a good mix, then a good percentage of wild fish vs. hatchery. The reason there was only a small number of fish in the pens at the hatchery was because when they get these early fish they only use a percentage of these fish for egg/sperm takes. The rest of the fish are gone through and the species and sex are taken along with the wanding on the head, then they are tossed into big plastic toats and loaded up into Food Service of America Truck and shipped different places ie. food banks, missions, shelters. They use a larger percentage of the later larger hook noses for their genes. That's my .02 So when you think that you maybe didn't "give" all that much this year, you really did, thousands of pounds of Salmon to the needy.

Harbor-Hog

Good post Harbor
makes you think

I think we're ready for some wholesale change at WDFW. In Alaska they will open, expand or close a fishery in a heartbeat based on good solid field data. Meanwhile our fish clowns in Olympia seem to make a mockery of everything they do. Just another failure to do the right thing.

I have been told by an expert in the field who has studied the hatchery reports thoroughly that nearly 60,000 hatchery salmon were "surplused" (ie given to food banks or ground into fertilizer) in 2003, about 70,000 in 2002. Last year the bay, the river, and tribs were LOADED with kings and yet there was no harvest opportunity on what I have been told were predominately unmarked hatchery fall chinook.

The Chehalis system is entirely barbless single hook for salmon. With proper handling, hook and release mortalities are acceptable. An emergency order this year liberalizing the season to the retention of only clip fin coho thru Sept 30 in the river and tribs would have made many more hatchery fish available to in-river anglers who might otherwise have have no chance to participate in the ocean/bay fishery.

It begs the question, why are we producing these hatchery fish if not for harvest opportunity? At a cost of nearly $4.00/pound just to raise them to smolt size, f we are not going to be given the harvest opportunity on the returning adults, then why continue the artificial propagation of these fish?

John nice post. I guess we should all give the WDFW a piece of our minds at the upcoming meetings.

later

Ryan

Elkman

good points FPN.....I think the answer to the hatchery question is this: The tribes.

The netting schedule does not start until first week of Oct. If the nets were in early more of those fish would be harvested but there would be an even bigger uproar from us sports fishers.

Unfortunately most fisheries are still being managed for the commercial fleet first and us second. The tribes hold the trump cards on all of our fisheries. There is a late run of native Chinook that they will be netting along with the larger Coho yet to come.

Now is not the time to complain about when "your" favorite fishery should open. Sport anglers have the opportunity to participate in the season setting process but few do.

What would you guys suggest? An in-season update of the run-size based on sport catch rates. It's very unlikely that rivers will open early based on the good sport catch rates in the Harbor and the fact that a few hatcheries have had "excess fish". Nearly all hatcheries surplus fish and fish have been showing early at many hatcheries in the State.

As far as what answer your looking to get from someone's brothers, girlfriends, cousin, who know someone at the hatchery, is anyone's guess. This is not the place to look for answers. Get involved with the process.....don't just ***** about the outcome.

Fishcounter-
I for one am not complaining about the late openers. I do feel that the WDFW should have openened alot of rivers earlier. By the time October 1st and 15th open up most of those early fish are not table worthy. Not that there won't be a good two months were there are some nice silvers to be had, just seems like two additional months would be nice. I fish alot of summer runs around here, and this year I got into lots of early kings the first weekened in September. Thats pretty early around here. Sure we get early kings in the Chehalis, but it's tribs is rare. I agree that more people need to get involoved. Lets work together not against eachother. Bring on the hook noses...

Fishcounter, Alaska doesn't base their escapement estimates on sportscatch only. They take actual counts from weirs, sonar or field surveys. That way they can make real-time decisions based on what's actually materializing run-wise compared to our WDFW making a SWAG before the run starts, setting seasons based on their SWAG and not bothering to vary seasons based on actual results. It's safer for them that way and they don't have to work as hard to know what's actually returning in the rivers. I believe there's also an element of WDFW waiting to see what commercial and tribal needs are before considering additional sport opportunity.

Harbor-Hog, I am curious why you think WDFW should have opened "many rivers" earlier. I agree that as time continues the quality of the fish declines but the seasons are not set on the quality of the fish. Would you agree to a fishery that would terminate once a predetermined number of kings were caught? Remember that this would leave a lot of coho on the table. Sounds like your catching quite a few in the salt and are really interested in coho during the river fishery....as am I. Good fishing for the hook-nose.

R Ridgeway, No one estimates escapement by counting fish in the fishery. Those fish don't escape.....they are eaten. Both WDFW and AK along with BC and OR, estimate escapement in similar fashion, despite what you are sure of. When applicable, counts are made at dams or weirs. This is one of the most accurate way in most cases but I don't think we should go out and build dams on all rivers to get a good estimate of escapement. Weirs also work but are cost prohibited and difficult to maintain. The most common way escapement is estimated in Puget Sound is to count fish on the spawning grounds. This is conducted once fish enter the spawning grounds, and long after the peak of the river sport fishery. Estimates are made from both redd counts and in some cases live counts. Each river system is different and requires a different approach. Chinook surveys are just beginning and biologist are still weeks away from peak counts in many rivers. This is why we couldn't update the runsize based on escapement .......escapement has not happened yet and many of the pre-terminal fisheries are at or past peak.

This topic began by bashing WDFW for not opening the fishery given the great catch rates in the harbor. WDFW along with every other management agency in the NW could not update the runsize with the precision required to change tho opening date of the in-river fishery with the information available at this point.

This may be difficult to comprehend but rest assured there are bright minds working on this and many other issues. We are coming off of several years of great salmon fishing in WA and all I hear from many sport anglers is that WDFW does a terrible job. Once again don't lob insults from the sidelines.....get in the game.

You know, it really jerks my chain when I'm prompted to "get in the game" (which really means "get in the bureaucracy"), when it is you boys and girls in Olympia who get paid to solve the problem. Get it? I work for a living and get to fish occasionally. And while the WDFW folks work full time also, there seems to be more excuses why something can't be done, than reasons why something can.

I'm quite sure that fish counts in the Salt Chuck are difficult, so what? That's what you get paid for (by me, by the way). I'm sick to death of a micro-managed, gets-to-be-less-fun-every-year fishery.

As far as in-river counts, at least where hatcheries are involved, when the hatcheries have their brood stock needs met (at the very latest) why not fly a flag at the hatchery and turn the fishermen loose? Word will spread fast enough without WDFW getting constipated getting the boss's OK.

While some are out to fish "just for the sport of it", there are a lot of folks who find it necessary to weigh the cost-per-pound aspect of fishing, and while they enjoy fishing, there is a need to justify the expense of license, gas, and gear.

I know, here comes the, "Here's why we CAN'T to that......"

I'm done. Have to go take my meds now.....

Fun5Acres -
While I'm not a particularly big fan of the North of Falcon salmon season process it is the process that establishes your salmon seasons. It is not so much about how many fish there are to be caught but rather who gets to catch the fish. In the past and to a large extend today the vast majority of anglers taking part in that process prefer to catch their share of the resource in the salt. As a result the river anglers are left with the left overs. If you wish to see a larger piece of the pie you need to be in the game; otherwise you continue to get only what others can't figure out how to catch.

FishNPhyscian -
The reality of wild fish management is that often surplus (uncaught) hatchery fish will return to the hatchery rack. In many cases the in-river recreational fisheries are limited by either other fisheries all ready taking all the allowable impacts on wild stocks of concern or prior fisheries (sport marine) have all ready caught the sport share.

Regarding Alaska fishery management - one needs to remember that much of the Alaskan chinook harvest occurs in rivers while here in Washington except for the tribal fisheries the majority occurs in the salt. Management would certainly be simplier if we were to shift our harvest to the rivers - anyone for closing the Washingotn Coast Ocean fisheries? That would supply additional fish for nealry all our river fisheries.

I'm afraid that this whole discussion is yet another illustration that at least for salmon most of our anglers are more interested in harvesting as many fish as possible and the heck with the wild resource.

Tight lines
S malma

What I don't understand is why can't we keep kings on the Chehalis tributaries when we're having the best runs in 50 years. Last year we had to release many kings to get our silvers. How many of those released kings are going to make it? Wouldn't it be smarter to punch your two fish and be done?

Here's another thought... Why do we we raise hatchery kings if were not allowed to keep them. Are they only for the netters?

With all the complicated rules like barbless single hooks, non bouyant lure restriction, line must be moving not stationary, etc. it seems to me that they want you to spend the money on licenses but not harvest any fish.

I would like to see the Chehalis tributaries opened for Chinook retention as long as the runs are good. Even if they put a season limit on how many you could punch for that year. if the runs are good, then why not let us river fishermen, the last in line, keep a few!!!

Fish Counter:

Ugh,. ugh, ugh...........What about the people that like to fish "jacks".......me and many others.

35+ yrs. of fishing the Grays Harbor rivers........have caught "jacks" as early as end of July and for sure in August and September.

Just doesn't make sense to have 10/1 or 10/15 openings in Grays Harbor. WDF needs to do a better job of keeping rivers "open" for the more and more people that are going to be fishing........."baby boomers" with money that are retiring earlier than 65.

I've "vented", now I'll just have to wait until 10/1 to fish.........

"worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

i think the real problem was the winter like deluge that came at the end of august... which no one expected and sucked everything out of the salt too quickly ending many salt fisheries earlier than planned....many hatcheries were surplusing fish earlier than they ever had because the fish came in all at once and too early....a couple managers i talked to were very uncomfortable surplusing before they even started taking eggs...it's hard to predict what the weather will be when seasons are set .....who would have thought there'd be 3 inches of rain in august?

Bodysurf-
I think everyone is in agreement that the rains of late August early September had alot to do with the amount of fish in this system right now. In years the fish were present this early, just not the numbers like we have right now. The problem I see is that the WDFW shuts down a river overnight with the snap of the fingers when we don't have the numbers. So why can we not have an overnight opener? Okay maybe overnight is drastic, but you get the point. NOTHING would have hurt to have this fishery all open 9/1. I am glad that a good majority of the early kings pushed through the system with little to no pressure. But if we had harvestable numbers of kings in the beggining, then why not start at the beggining? Makes sense to me. I like fishing kings when the numbers are up to par. Nothing like the slam of a wrapped kwiky, or the brute strenght of these pigs. I would rather have a 10lb silver or a steely for the BBQ anyday. Fishcounter, can you help me out by informing me of some stuff of the stuff that we need to pursue to support/make these changes? I figured you might have some knowledge on the subject.

Thanks-
Harbor-Hog

From Olympia......hmmm

the tough thing about opening up rivers licketty split is that is that they don't know what's still coming up after the big push... if anything and they can't tell what's come up already until they're already at the rack...which is too late for the sporties....

how would you suggest they figure run numbers to allow emergency river openings and guarantee egg take and escapement?

Body Surf:

Easy answer..........cut back on the "netting schedule" until the hatcheries have what they need. The whole sport catch for months of fishing doesn't equal 1 or 2 days of gill netting.

I saw gillnet boats coming into 28th Street so loaded, fish everywhere. Boxes were full, salmon laying on the desks. Fish buyers were right there........makes me sick to see that many fish caught, and the price was way down. Just don't figure!!!!!!!!

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

but how do you know where the fish the gill netters had impacted had come from? maybe they were mainly fish headed to the upper chehalis...or fish heading to other systems that had stopped in grays harbor for awhile...and there's no way to tell until redd counts are done and cwts read etc to tell what percent of fish came from where? what about the 90% of the state that doesn't fish but wants to eat salmon? if you cut down commercial fishing why would they want to support sports fisheries when you make their fish cost more?

Run timing of the hatchery coho returning to rivers flowing into Grays Harbor is pretty well known. Years and years of coded wire tag data tells us this. The hatchery coho timing is mostly separated from the wild coho timing (i.e., they are earlier). The intensive net fisheries and sport fisheries are timed to land right on the hatchery timing. Of course the peak entry pattern is not 100% guranteed... it often shifts one or two or three weeks depending on the year. But in most years the intensive fisheries are timed very well to coincide with hatchery coho entry patterns and when it works well, tens of thousands of hatchery coho are harvested.

Despite this, the surplus at most the hatchery coho facilities in the basin is quite large. These facilities have not had any problems meeting their needs for egg takes in many, many years. The hatchery coho suplus could be reduced if timing was more protracted than it currently is. But then the overlap with wild timing would be greater and therefore the impacts to local naturally produced coho would be increased which is contrary to current management policy.

So, you thought fisheries management was easy?

Guess I'm missing something here:

Hatcheries have egg take, so no problem there..........


Then WHY are we the openings for most of the rivers in Grays Harbor County..........10/1 or later??????

There are hatchery silvers, silver jacks, and even ugh king jacks that could be fished on in August and September........they were there this year and have been there for the many years that I've fished the Grays Harbor system.

"The worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

Could very well be a protective measure for wild chinook. If run size projections allow for a small harvest of fall chinook (September run entry) then the intensive fishery for hatchery coho may have to get moved back.... and miss a portion of the return.

These are just speculative answers. I know the fall chinook populations in the Grays Harbor rivers have not been real productive in recent years. Management measures could be aimed at increasing chinook escapements. But those pesky hatchery coho insist on coming home in September as well.

So, you thought fish management was easy?