SB..I see your point but respectfully disagree with your assessment of my hate for anyone. I do not hate. Disagreeing with and speaking out against abuses is not hate. I do not agree with the way things are going with the implementation of Boldt and Rafeedie. That's all. No racism..No hate...just honest disgust for what is going on. I believe I have mentioned in the past that the majority of tribal members are not well off and suffer poverty and alcoholism in great percentages. I feel sick about that in light of the riches bestowed on many tribes. I have no problem with the tribes excercising their court given rights to our fish and shellfish. I do have a problem with overstepping those rights to the detriment of every other citizen of our country. That is far from hate. Sure my statements are passionate at times and sarcastic at times but not hateful. This is a serious debate and if it makes you sick don't participate.

I agree with Dave about the Boldt decision. I agree it won't be overturned but that we need to atleast try for some accountability so we can be assured that the tribes are getting their court given share of 50% and not taking things into their own hands by cheating and abusing what they have. Saying we should not say anything because there are non-indian poachers and abusers is a cop out. I am one who believes that the term "in kind" found in the 1855 treaties meant that the tribes could harvest fish on the same playing field with the rest of the population in the same way with the same rules. The court ruled otherwise but I don't think they had any idea to what extent the tribes would take this ruling.

Politicians are increasingly shy to even discuss tribal issues because most of them are taking big contributions from the tribes. For the rest of us to just sit on the sidelines silently for fear of offending folks would not be what I think our country is all about. So sling the arrows with racism but know that you are just plain wrong.

As with most factions of our society today, there are those who have it all figured out and no one can tell them any different... if you do, you are vilified. But that is OK with me because in my profession I run across these types of people all the time. I can tell you that I (personally) do not have these resource sharing and fishery conflict issues figured out. Why? Because most of these resource-sharing differences are unavoidable and many fishery conflicts are driven by differing policy decisions made by government entities.

Many of us sports fishers believe we are getting a raw deal… with crab or whatever species you want to talk about. You certainly can count me as not at all thrilled about not being able to go catch fresh crab past early September. But to blame this problem on other fishers and fisheries alone avoids, at least in large part, some of the common sense matters we have facing us in this region. For example, the crab resource in Puget Sound has been somewhat stable the last 10 years or so. Do you think the sport fishing population has been stable as well? I don't. We are a growing group. Look around you and it is easy to figure out. Have you noticed how crowded the Puget Sound region is getting? Do you enjoy getting stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5... ON A SATURDAY??? The housing industry is booming. The boat building industry is booming. The new sporting goods warehouse stores are not popping up because the sport fishing population is going down... it is growing and these sporting goods companies track these kinds of statistics and build where the growth is. So, lets use some common sense here. Growing population, static resource... do the math.

For those of you on this site who are not close-minded, let me share with you some of the FACTS regarding the Dungeness crab fisheries in this State. And, by all means, do not accept my word alone… check these out with anyone else who actually KNOWS something about how crab are managed in this state.

FACT: Except for a portion of the coastline south of Point Chehalis down to and including the lower Columbia, Dungeness crab in our State are managed jointly by the State of Washington and treaty tribes.

FACT: It is important to know that treaty rights are subject to a number of court-ordered conditions. Whether these conditions are being met is often subject to dispute… between tribes, between a tribe and the state, etc..

FACT: Treaty rights do not guarantee catch. Until caught, the harvestable resource remains in public ownership. The treaty rights are those of the tribes and the tribal governing body and not those of the individual fisher. This is the same way it works for us sport fishers. We, as individuals, do not own the resource. We do not have a “right” to the resource and it is the same with any tribal member. We may qualify to purchase a license, which allows us to access the resource under specific conditions and rules. In the same way, tribal fishers are licensed by their tribes and subject to tribal ordinances and regulations.

FACT: The Dungeness crab resource is managed by region. The regions consist of areas such as the coast, the Strait, Hood Canal, North Sound, Central Sound and South Sound.

FACT: Annually, the WDFW and those treaty tribes located in the regions referenced above, determine the harvestable number of crab FOR EACH REGION. That harvestable number is divided equally. The WDFW manages the state’s portion of a region's harvestable crab and the treaty tribes manage theirs... under an agreed-to plan.

FACT: The WDFW makes policy decisions for each region as to how the non-treaty share is to be divided between sport fishers and commercial fishers. Each region is largely independent of the other.

FACT: On the coast the non-treaty share is harvested, almost entirely, by commercial fisheries that begin on or around December 1 each year. Up until a few years ago there was no pot limit for these commercial fishers. Some of the larger boats would fish 1,000 pots. At its peak the non-treaty coastal crab fishery had over 100,000 pots in the water. Today, there is a pot limit for each license holder and a moratorium on new vessels entering the fishery.

FACT: The non-treaty share of the Hood Canal region crab are harvested by sports fishers only.

FACT: The non-treaty crab fishery in the North Sound region, for example, is a mixture of sport and commercial fisheries. Normally, the commercial fishery does not start until October with the sport fishery operating during the summer months.

FACT: Commercial crabbers, BOTH TRIBAL AND NON-TRIBAL, sell to the same seafood dealers and processors, regardless of region. Catch from these sales is recorded in essentially the same manner with I.D. and signature of the fisher required. People that say otherwise do not know the commercial crab fishery. The possible exception to this is in Hood Canal where no non-Indian commercial crab fishery takes place. But even here several buyers from other regions come over and purchase crab from tribal crabbers.

FACT: The treaty tribes manage their crab fisheries with a different set of policy decisions than the WDFW does. In every region there are several tribes with treaty fishing rights to crab. The tribes within each region must determine how to conduct their fisheries. Typically (in Puget Sound), a pot limit is established along with a season or a fishing schedule. THE POT LIMIT IN ONE REGION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE POT LIMIT IN ANOTHER REGION... also, the tribes that fish in one region may not be the same tribes that fish in another.

FACT: There are concerns about catch accountability in the Puget Sound crab fishery... all portions of the Puget Sound crab fishery. There are many fishery management biologists, tribal and state, working on these issues... right now.

PROFESSIONAL OPINION: It does little to support the cause of the sport fishing public to declare that the sport fishers "only get 17% of the crab" in Puget Sound. This just distorts the issue. What would be much more useful and more telling is to list each region, figure out what the non-treaty share was and then compare the non-treaty commercial catch with the sport catch over, say, the last 5 years. With those statistics at hand one could determine whether a case could be made for some re-distribution of harvestable crab within a region.

Finally, I hope I do not stoop to the low level of behavior exhibited by several people on this site. If I do, please let me know and I will correct myself. I endeavor to not point fingers like some or make comments about individuals, like some. It is obvious that several folks here maintain hatred for certain segments of our society and wish to blame their problems on those they hate. I would remind everyone that no one is perfect, no government is blameless for their decisions and the actions of one person do not reflect the actions of another. Be careful with that broad brush, it’s a dangerous tool. The original question was about the accounting of commercial crab catches. I have offered perspective you may not get from the typical person on this site. And because we live in a free country with a democratic form of government, people are free to take it or leave it. Your choice!

I just want to inform you people that if you think that any of our local governments or federal governments are going to do anything about what the tribes get away with you are sadly mistaken. Since I work for a government agency I hear whats going on. The tribes have a strong hold in Washington DC, what ever they want they get. I can tell you what is going to happen when the marine life gets wiped out the tribes are then going to blame the white man for giving the tribes the ok to do what they want the white man don't have the CHI-CHI's to fight the tribes or the money. So until then we are hosed as sportsman. The only thing we can do right now is stand united and start complaining to Washington DC, we might not be able to change anything in our life time but maybe our grand kids might do better. If there is anything left by then.

I have to side with Aunty M here on this one PNW. Seems like you are looking through some pretty rose colored glasses there, just because you say its so, does not make it so.

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I hope I do not stoop to the low level of behavior exhibited by several people on this site. If I do, please let me know and I will correct myself. I endeavor to not point fingers like some or make comments about individuals, like some. It is obvious that several folks here maintain hatred for certain segments of our society and wish to blame their problems on those they hate.
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You have reached a level that none of us here have stooped to, and that is to profess to tell us that we have stooped to a low level by doing exactly the same thing that you do, and that is giving your opinion. That is what we are all doing here, what I find so un-palatable from you is that while professing to not do , you are doing just that.
I for one have seen with my own two eyes that the tribes are treated differently than the general public, I'm from N.Y. and know that when it smells, there are rats around......
Remember, just because we differ in opinion does not mean that I am a racist

PNW, the real fact here is that the tribes do what they want, when they want and are accountable to no one and certainly not themselves. They regularly break laws and just plain ethics and nothing is done. They laugh all the way to the bank. You really are full of yourself.

And that is why nothing ever changes, he said she said , they say we say ,everybody is wrong nobodys right,this is kind of like a Tom Wait's tune!!!PEACE not WAR

FACT: Anytime BIG MONEY is involved, you/we should be suspicious. This is not a tribal issue, but a humanity issue. - Devolopers, Real estate, Business, Fisheries, Forrestry, Gov't - It's all the same. (What industry did I miss?)

I thank AuntyM for saving me time as it is really late for a 4am riser. Good for you Aunty for calling this woolf in sheeps clothing out on his misstatements. There are a few more to address later.... PNW does get a few things correct but most is rhetoric and misleading falsehoods under the guise of "expert opinion"...OH PULEEEEZE...expert?

Your arguments don't hold water and especially with this elusive "expert" status you have bestowed on yourself. Knowledgeable yes but expert? I think not. If you are a tribal employee with knowledge of fish good for you! Your arguments for tribal gambling and fishing abuses are so transparent they approach ridiculous. The picture you are trying to paint of the tribal commercial crabber is ludicrous to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I do want to correct something I may have implied earlier, however. The tribes do perform acts of fair play and kindness from time to time. An eye witness to indian crabbers robbing sports crab pots in Hood Canal pointed out the error of my ways. He said I should mention that he felt good in the end because the indian poachers did return the sports pots to the water and did not steal them.

There is an article in today's Seattle Times web-site about the commercial harvest of chum salmon. It appears that the entire fish is utilized. Is this article biased? Maybe. But, nevertheless, why can't the Skokomish Indians use the entire fish or at least conserve the resource? At least they could release male chums out of the net and only take females. But, instead, they gaff every fish out of the net, males go directly back into the water (with a hole in them) and females go to the gutting station. It would take just a little extra effort here to return half of these fish. They would have to grab each one by the tail or invent a little noose to grab them with.

That would eliminate half the rotting cadavers I step on when I go there and that would make me happy!!!

How about taking a picture of a bunch of these gaffed fish, then sending it to the SEATTLE TIMES writer who wrote the story. Maybe then he will see he's being fed a bunch of BS from the tribes, and dig for the real truth.

Mike

Well, I am not surprised about the follow-up comments. Yes, I deal with people who have "all the answers" on a regular basis so I am used to it. I do wish to reiterate, however... please do not take my word for anything. If you seriously doubt what I have explained are the FACTS then I would ask you attempt to disprove or corroborate them by asking someone else who actually KNOWS what they are talking about. So far, that has not been the case. What I mean is, ask someone who is involved in the management of the Puget Sound crab fishery.

Before the population explosion around here which is one accuracy noted by pnw, no one even bothered to count the crab catches and we crabbed all year long. We could be in a down cycle in terms of overall populations too. With that said, that begs the question of accuracy of the tribal reporting. We now address the imbalance of harvest because of the closures that limit sports access to the crabs. Sports crabbers (over 100,000 of us) must share the non-tribal piece of the pie with some of the commercial license holders (about 240). The tribes are supposed to get half of the total available for harvest. If their reporting was as above board as pnw (Stands With A Crab) would have us believe and we could trust the numbers then we might stand alone with a problem which is the sports count..The method of counting the sports catch is seriously flawed and is in the process of being fixed. This whole debate centers around the notion that the tribes are cheating. I think they are and PNW swears they are as honest as the other commercials. He swears that they sell their crab to the same buyers and report all their catch accurately within 24 hours. I say he is wrong. The Skoks in particular in the canal are notorious for inaccurate reporting. The problem is that no one wants to publicly take on the tribes as there is still too much sympathy for them and the politicians need their gambling money. And, as you have seen here, any complaint about or criticism of the tribes brings the immediate charge of hate and racism. Most of the media won't take that risk so they won't print anything that could be construed as against the tribes. The Tacoma News Tribune does print great stuff but I bet they get branded by guys like pnw as racist.

Just imagine how things would be if this state had a single entity to police all sides and the tribes did not hide behind the sovereign nation shield. What would it be like if the tribes would pay for catching geoduck like everyone else is forced to. Imagine if they did not higrade their catches. Imagine if they paid taxes for all the natural resources they harvest.

We need to enforce Boldt and Rafeedie and hold the tribes accountable. You have seen what power their untaxed gambling money has in our government and if nothing is done to hold them accountable we may have to stow all our fishing gear and toss our crab and shrimp pots. Guys like PNW mix facts with fiction in their attempt to sanitize the tribes. In my book it will take alot of actions to prove to me that the tribes are part of the solution and not the bulk of the problem.

BTTNM, perhaps you should ask our resident "Expert" PNW. He seems to have all of the anwers to what and how the tribes do things, I guess all of us here are just plain wrong about the things that we have observed.
Give me a break, its not a state sercret, if you work for, are married to or are a tribal member then just say it................

I applaud pacificnw for his noble defence of tribal fishermen. We are all human and suffer that consequence together. His thoughts are fueling this debate causing us all to introspect our own positions.
Soon a decision will be made to eliminate all non-tribal commercial crab fishing within Puget Sound. I wonder if his tribes will sign onto that decision to eliminate their commercial competition?