I just got this in an e-mail, might make for some good reading:

When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new
session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting

the usual generalities, but this is what they heard:
"Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask
your forgiveness and to seek your direction and
guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those
who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have
done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and
reversed our values. We confess that we have ridiculed
the absolute truth of Your Word and call it Pluralism.
We have exploited the poor and called it the
lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and
called it building self esteem.
We have abused power and called it politics.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and
called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and
pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our
forefathers and called it enlightenment.
Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today;
cleanse us from every sin and set us free.
Guide and bless these men and women who have been
sent to direct us to the center of Your will and to
openly ask these things in the name of Your Son, the
living Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen!"

The response was immediate. A number of legislators
walked out during the prayer in protest..
In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where
Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone
calls with only 47 of those calls responding
negatively.
The church is now receiving international requests
for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and
Korea.
Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his
radio program, "The Rest of the Story," and received a
larger response to this program than any other he has
ever aired.
With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over our
nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we
again can be called "one nation under God."
If possible, please pass this prayer on to your
friends. "If you don't stand for something, you will
fall for everything."

Yukon.....I think this post will test the hordes of secularists here and probably the censors too....

Good post though.

What if I happen to be Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Shinto or even Atheist?

Is there no room for me here in this great FREE country?

It's starting........

Pass the foil, please......(I loved it, tho!)...

Nice post. Should have known 4salt would be the one to talk first.

Heard this before,nice post.Shows where were at huh!

4salt,that type of post might not fit everybodies beliefs.Maybe then they should consult or think about what their higher power,spiritual adviser,or whatever they are called (or not)feels about the things mentioned.
Although the post is written in a christian context,a person should be able to see the meaning of whats said and accept it for what it is. A real eye opener.

I feel that a lot of people are pushing their beliefs real hard by,trying to suppress other peoples beliefs.I hope that makes sense.

I'm not pointing my finger at you 4salt cause I really don't know where you stand in that area.Or most others.So please don't take it personal.

I just see it in a lot of areas of our lives,and I just dont understand why if a person doesnt like or believe in something.Why they can't choose to just not participate.Instead of trying to take away what I feel are other peoples rights.

I may not like some things that other people do but.I dont feel I should try to put a stop to it just because I'm offended.Or dont agree.I just choose to ignore it. Obviously there are exceptions to everything,but I'm refering to the generic stuff,Political and religious beleifs,etc.

Prayer is a wonderful thing, and very personal. I usually say a quick "thank you" in prayer to my God after I've landed a fish.

But when prayer is used as a means of intimidation, or to convey some political agenda, or as a public address system, then I find that to be sacreligous.

Look at what's behind some of the major hotspots in the world today and you'll notice the common theme of people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.

This tale is actually partly an urban legend. Yes, the speech is more or less real. But read for yourself, there's a page on this issue at snopes.com .

BTW, I'm agnostic. Keep religion out of government, keep government out of religion. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and render unto God's what is God's. Let's try not to have a state religion here in this country. Out of all causes, religion has probably killed more people throughout history than any other cause, natural or manmade.

Does the foil protect you from “Born again Christian fundamentalists?

Why's that?

Never fear Grandpa, there's no way I'd ever be able to follow in your footsteps when it comes to stirring up ill content here.

I had a free minute so I dipped my big toe in to test the waters. There's no way in hell I'd enter a full-blown discussion of religion and government. So pass the foil this way, would ya...

It wont protect you from burning in hell though...

Interesting topic...maybe Bob could move this to the new forum so the coming dissention and debate won't harm the "mood" of the Fishing Forum.

Comment: "Born again Christian fundamentalists"

Could someone please provide a decent/understandable definition of the above term?

Mike

What dribble...... You would make up your own prayer.. DOH?!
Then, when you got up in front of a group of people as a speaker you could recite your own..... Better get the new innoculation for that "Conservative Pig" disease that you are so afraid of catching....

MC

Hey MC,

What? Make some sense man... for a change!

4Salt....You and I both know that ill content is stirred up when either you or I say what we believe and it grates on the nerves of those who disagree....some disagree so much that they get mad...I will admit that it is entertaining to toss out the bait and see your side of the fence pick it up and run with it.

With that said, I heard from a good liberal source that you are quite a fisherman.

A definition of the BACF movement... tough to say, but this might be a start.

A group that believes the only route to eternal salvation is through their religious teachings.

Is that "right" Piper?

Congratulations... Thats a start allright... a start at describing 99% of all religions....

:p

One of the many fallacies of organized religion. Just wish they would keep it to themselves. Wait a minute there is someone at the door.....where did I put that foil?

"Organized religion"...

A creation of mankind to cause mankind to feel is if they are serving God. Follows right along with the "step on a crack, break your mothers back" bit. Do this, don't do that. Eat this, but not that. Say what we tell you to say...sell this many books...get this many people to say "X".

In "religion", salvation (ie: attaining Heaven") is based on keeping to a set of standards set down by people who thought them up.

This is entirely contrary to a basic teaching the Bible. (Eph. 2:8-9)

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:


Main Entry: 1fun·da·men·tal
Pronunciation: "f&n-d&-'men-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : serving as an original or generating source : PRIMARY a discovery fundamental to modern computers. b : serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : BASIC
2 a : of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : RADICAL ; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application b : adhering to fundamentalism
3 : of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration
4 : of central importance : PRINCIPAL
5 : belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : DEEP-

See highlighted (bold/italics) above for the best applied definition of "fundamental" when it comes to Christians.

Basically, most all "fundamental Christians" are extreme legalists. Adhering to the letter of the Bible, rather than what is the typically accepted interpretation, often only as it (Scripture) applies to other people, and not themselves.

No offense intended to anyone. This is a topic that I have spent years learning and studying about., and oddly can now debate the issues relating to it from most any theological position. (Not that there is a desire to do so, mind you.)

Mike

I hear ya Grandpa! I personally like the controversial sh!t you post. Seems like whenever I enter some of these discussions though, I leave the impression that I take them seriously! Not the case! That's mainly why I don't post too much anymore. I guess I should work on putting more smilies in or something.

One other small issue though. How can you be so sure what side of the fence I'm ACTUALLY on?

p.s. I too hear from some reliable sources (and picture evidence) that you ain't too shabby a fisherman yourself! Who knows, I may just have to show up at one of your PSA chapter meetings... Incognito of course!

Hey Mike - "religion" is about man reaching out to 'god'. Or about man trying to earn his way to some higher or better place. Or man trying to do the right things, the right way, etc. The entire point of Christianity is that there is no 'work' or 'good deed' or 'right things' a person can do to earn his way to heaven or earn Salvation. The one time event of Christ sacrificing himself is the only 'work' that needs to be done. After that it is up to us to accept his work or regect his work. Anything else is at best fluff. Catholicism has added a lot of 'religion' on to that, as have other off-shoots and even occults like Mormanism, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.
Anyway - i'm sure I'm not making many friends with this post - so I'll bow out now...

But then you may be making friends at the same time...

Hi Phish:

Isn't that what I said? (an excerpt from my above post is below)

In "religion", salvation (ie: attaining Heaven") is based on keeping to a set of standards set down by people who thought them up.

This is entirely contrary to a basic teaching the Bible. (Eph. 2:8-9)

No worries...after the gang I went to school with the skin has grown real thick..:-)

Mike

Howdy again Phish:

You said: "After that it is up to us to accept his work or regect his work"

But, if we truly believe in Salvation by Grace alone..(Eph. 2:8-9), then how can it be our choice whether to accept or not?

But the Bible also teaches:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved".

To "believe" is a willful act...but if salvation is by grace alone (God's choice, not ours) then we have a bit of a cunnundrum, no?

Not trying to irritate anyone...just opening up a "door" for discussion..

Mike

Mike - I thought that may have been your point. I was just adding to it a little. Either way - I like a good discussion now and then too

The grace is offered to us - not forced on us. It is a gift that you can accept or reject. Get's into the whole 'free will' thing.

4Salt.....I would love to see you at a meeting. Vedder is giving a talk Tuesday the 10th on float fishing ....He told me that I pissed him off worse than anyone EVER....We had a short agreement not to argue politics...but we both went off the wagon....Someone told me today that they figured me out the first day they met me...they figured out not to take what I say to heart or too seriously ....Unless , of course, the subject is fishing...

I found this 'thread' to be highly entertaining.

If there is a quicker 'wit' on this planet than Piper he isn't posting here.. :p

I think smart ass is a better description...

but I know you were trying to being nice... Thanks.

you know, 4-salt and Dan S have had me in stitches for years, I'm just trying to live up to there example!

You're doing just fine, my good man.

MasterCaster:
“What dribble...... You would make up your own prayer.. DOH?!”

I think the word you should use is “drivel”
If you’re young you “dribble” a basketball.
If you’re my age it’s something you do when going to the bathroom.
Come to think of it maybe you did mean dribble.

I think the phrase BORN AGAIN FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN has been tossed around so much it has lost it's real meaning and has gained some sort of mutation placed upon it by anti-christians. If you can get a belief red-flagged by misrepresenting it ...well, then you can get it hated.

Hitler blamed all the evils of society on the Jews and the Christians.


BORN AGAIN: To accept the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for you. He was perfect ...we are not and can never be by our own power. When we (anyone)accept God's only gift of salvation who is Jesus Christ the Lord, we are right then born new by God's Holy Spirit. He says all things are new and our past sins and weaknesses are forgotten.

Fundamentalist: Believing the words of the Bible are true.

Christian: A Believer in Jesus Christ.

Some have gone under the guise of Fundamentalists and have added their own rules and regs and have become legalistic...this isn't any better than taking away from the Bible the important aspect of Grace.

GRACE is simple and also free for everyone...no matter who you are, you can come to Jesus Christ and He will not turn you away. Hey, He said that not me!

Maybe that's what everyone is afraid of about Grace...they don't understand it.

Guerrilla,

Pretty much agreed...but the "catch" is in this statement you made:

"Fundamentalist: Believing the words of the Bible are true."

Absolutely! the problems come in when different churches claiming "fundamentalism" interpret the same passages in very different ways.

Take, for instance, the huge group of believers most commonly known as "Baptists", of which many classify themselves as IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptists).

In that category (IFB) we find:

Free Will Baptists (Actually a misrepresentation as their doctrine leans 100% towards Calvin...complete predestination).

Sovereign Grace Baptists - even more conservative than the Free Will, but leaning even more towards the doctrines of Calvin and Augustine. Literal interpretation of dress standards for women, hair covering, ets. Very legalistic...but true to the Scriptures and their interpretations.

Followers of the late Jack Hyles - liberal by many standards but still true to Scripture. Often very dispensational (multiple dispensations vs. just a few).

Followers of Dr. Peter Ruckman - Outright in-your-face preachers of the Gospel - the "hotseat" of KJV onlyism.

Modern day Baptistdom has become a true "Tower of Babel" when it relates to alomst all but the most common of doctrine. There are some [doctrines] that are absolute and common, as has been pointed out...but many others (taken literally but seen differently) are points of divisiveness and separation.

Mike

I agree Mike; the problems come in when different churches interpret the same passages in very different ways.
I think the solution to this is to simply believe the words of the Bible are true even when we don’t understand every passage…I don’t think we are required to understand each and every sentence of the old and new testament to be a believer…nor, or we required to agree with each other on every jot and tittle of what is written to have fellowship. Although we should study to show ourselves approved.

The denominational churches who get into trouble seem to do this over one major point…THEY THINK THEY ARE THE CHURCH… When the Bible is clear, the church is made up of people who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. The Holy Spirit places anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and confesses He is Lord into the Body of Christ.
Certain denominations think they are the masters of the souls of men but they are deceived…only Christ is!
They think they are the teachers of the approved doctrines of the Bible…the Bible says the Holy Spirit teaches us and brings us into the knowledge of the Truth.

A BIG part of the problem is that most of the formal church denominations and independents who are legalistic lean this way because legalism ensnares their audience so they have a captive following who want to please God but are deceived by preachers and teachers who use the law and strictness of the letter to lead the congregations their way.

Grace and Free Will takes away the power of one certain preacher or some denomination to squeeze the pennies out of the purses of poor widows. Grace shows us that eternal life is free and totally paid for by the Saviour and Free Will gives each individual the power to accept God’s Love where ever they may be…I think that’s why the legalists refuse it.

harry

The following is an actual question posed in Engineering mid term
exam. The answer was so "profound" that the Professor shared it
with colleagues, which is why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it
as well.
Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or Endothermic
(absorbs heat)?
Most of the students wrote Proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's
Law, gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is
compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time.
So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the
rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once
a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are
leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at
the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these
religions state that if you are not a member of their religion,
you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions
and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can
project that all souls go to Hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number
of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate
of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in
order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same,
the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which
souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will
increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the
increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will
drop until hell freezes over.

So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa Banyan during my
Freshman year, "...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I
sleep with you." And take into account the fact that I still have not
succeeded in having sexual congress with her, then, "#2" cannot be
true. Therefore, I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze."
This student received the only "A" grade.

Teresa wasn't that good anyway.