I knew you were trollin' King! You may be an ultra-conservative right-wing wacko, but I get the feeling you're also a pretty reasonable guy deep down

As one who was raised Catholic, including 8 years of parochial school, I've been force-fed enough religious doctrine to choke a horse!

I could cut-and-paste more legal and moral debates on abortion than you could ever read in a lifetime! Problem is, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so! No matter how eloquently I presented my views it just wouldn't matter. We both know that BOTH our minds are already made up as to how we feel, and NO amount of convincing by either side is going to change that. So preach on if you must... perhaps there IS someone out there who is undecided as to their stance on abortion, but I REALLY doubt it...

Gulp.. wiggle, jump, thrash and run.
you may have caught me
but release me i'm a wild one.

RA3 - perhaps I missunderstood you when you said:

"The thing we are to learn from that being that it is impossible for a rich man to go to heaven."

Is that really how you understand that text, or were you just making a point?

The point of the text is that by our OWN merits, there is no way we can get to heaven. We can't earn it through 'good deeds' or even through money and power. This was the mission of Jesus Christ - to do the impossible and bridge the gap between sinful man and the perfect God....

Anyway - I understand the paranoia with Bush and Christian Evangelicals \ Fundamentalists. You fear what you don't know. And sometimes you fear even what you do know. Christianity surely challenges many lifestyles, choices, laws, and so called 'rights' of many people and cultures. And many throughout history have abused their leadership and suposed power in 'the name of God'. And Christians and non-Christians need to be on the lookout for these dangerous types. If GW is not being honest about his faith - he is surely a danger and a threat to all. But I'm not convinced he is not sincere in his faith. I'm troubled by much of what I see including some of the enviromental policies, but without first hand knowlege, I do not see enough evidence to condem him and the direction he is taking this country. There are a lot of questions and issues I'd like answers to, but that is always the case - no matter who is in charge.

4salt,

Some times a short cast works better somtimes a long one:-) I like to stir it up a little to keep the debate interesting.

Phish

Maybe i approach this part of the text with more severity than most people because i think it's important to understand one thing about the human condition, maybe there is a better forum for this discussuon but i guess this is where it came up so thi is where it should be.
The human condition as displayed in this text is that we are fallen and redemption is utterly impossible. I think that is the point of the entire bible. Humans are totally and completely without any form of hope of avoiding hell because what we do is evil.
That in my opinion is the realization we all need to come to, because only that will drive us to our knees insearch of the mercy we so desperatly need.
When that is reached then God can give us the gift of faith in Christ the one who takes away and foregives our sin.

For thoes not interested in the religious part of this debate I apologize for having this discussion here.

OK RA3 - I agree with you. I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying...

May I also point out that there are people in this world that will tell you with a straight face that you can't be a christian and believe in evolution, period.

There may even be a few true believers left in the church that cling to pre-copernican astronomy.

...and people wonder why the 'moral fabric' of our society is unravelling. :rolleyes:

LOL. For a guy who is so radically anti-christian, you sure seem to like to talk about it a lot. Then again, I guess that does make sense. Keep trolling, but try a little harder. Right now it's just tiring and predictable.

Yes! When we get a big one on we all say something like, "God please don't let me lose this one."

" For a guy who is so radically anti-christian..."

I can certainly see how my railing for the sanctity of the separation of church and state would be perceived by you to be anti-christian. What of my interweb writings have you found 'radical'? I definitely disagree with nearly everything conservative christians stand for but, it may surprise you to know that I was baptised and raised in the Methodist church so my personal beliefs and philosophies reflect that, to a point.

I also believe there are other gospels of the Bible that have not been included,more for political reasons than for their authenticity. Specifically, the book of Mary Magdalene. If you are familiar with this line of research and investigation then you'll know there is a significant body of evidence that supports these beliefs rather than being some sort of crackpot conspiracy theory.

How's that for radical? At least I'm not out shooting abortion doctors or setting fire to learning institutions in the name of my cause.

Occasionally I have been known to wear a head band and shout into a microphone. That's pretty radical too I know......

The reasons I speak out against ultra-conservatism of all forms are many and well founded....

Copernicus

Galileo

Da Vinci

Magellan

Newton

Gandhi

MLK

Malcolm X

Kent State

Grandpa

...and Plunker, to name just a few.

When I'm not busy burning black candles, practicing pagan Magick, enlisting cult members, studying Marx, emulating Mao and plotting my next serial kill....

...I sometimes worship Bail...Why just this morning I sacrificed several bananas to the bovine god/dess.

hmm women subserviant? not in Christianity.

"Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant chuch without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish but holy and blamless. In this same way husbands ought to love their wives."

Anyone who has the impression that in christianity the women are second class clearly doesn't understand. ahh but them maybe it's because there are so few good examples of men loving their wives in that way exsist as ofcourse is the case with most virtues.

h2O..thanks for including me in that group of folks....not sure what it means though

And as far as you being raised in the Methodist church I think what you mean is that your poor parents tried to raise you with some sort of faith but somewhere along the way you found your own way....The only religion I can see you embracing is Islam.

be sure to check out Nick Berg's beheading at the hands of terrorists today....some real fodder for your support of Islam and abhorrance of christianity. Great videos on Arab tv too so you can get plenty of material to blame Bush and America and the radical christian right etc etc etc....

I wonder who you are really deep down mad at? besides me and AuntyM and Slab and Plunker I mean...maybe your parents? who knows.

http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm

Here you go H2O.....pictures of the beheading.

"You will only get shroud after shroud and coffin after coffin slaughtered in this manner," it said.

"As for you Bush, dog of the Christians, anticipate what will harm you... You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate Muslims."

The murder was condemned by the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a U.S.-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group.

" Their job is to take care of the young or sick and do as their male leaders instruct them to do. Throughout Christian history women have been forced into subservience. "


You need to do some research on this. You have been taught wrong or have a mis understanding of the Gospel

Simply because somewhere in the bible it says women should be honored in some way, the thousands of years of oppressing women doesn't exist?

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Did we allow women to vote yet? I know they get special minority status in bidding government jobs. Are they allowed to read books and go to school?

Most married guys on here are always saying they have to check with "the wife" before they can go fishing and they usually say they can't go anywhere unless their "honeydo list " is complete. Sounds like the women are in control to me...what's the beef?

It would be interesting to see where the World stood on equal rights if Christianity never existed. I wonder if Islam would have taken over what are now (or were) essentially 'Christian' nations (ie - the dominating faith\religion)?

Christianity had and still has major cultural hurdles when it comes to issues like this. Just like slavery, many chose to disregard or even mis-use the biblical teachings to continue or promote their social\cultural status and practices. But like all lies and deception, the word of God stood firm and eventually over came. But as you have probably guessed, culture\society and Biblical teaching are continuously finding ways to battle eachother. Even at the individual level, living according to the word of God is not easy and we all rebel in our own ways....

My point? Christian people and Christian people's traditions and cultures are to blame for many of the above examples of oppression. But Christianity itself is the great equalizor of all time. "The ground at the foot of the cross is level..."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/109/52.0.html

Christian History Corner: Is Christianity Oppressive to Women?

“Has Christianity been oppressive to women? Yes. Is Christ? No. As the apostle Paul insisted, "In Christ's family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in common relationship with Jesus Christ" (Gal. 3:28).”


http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2002/07/daily-07-19-2002.shtml

July 19, 1848 • First Women's Right's Convention

“Christ Jesus treated women with respect. Not surprisingly, Christianity has elevated women more than any other world religion. And so it was that Christian women in a Christian church acting on a largely Christian agenda initiated the women's rights movement on this day, July 19, 1848.”

Many religions and people calling themselves Christians have misrepresented the word of God. Just as many calling themselves Christians commit a whole host of other sins and wrongs. Do not judge the word of God by what men do but by the word itself. If it were a book about how to catch 30lb steelehead most would read it inside and out and research it until death to understand the truth of it all. Yet when it comes to religion they use the actions of weak people as a reason to walk away or a light skimmining of the books to make their judgements. Interesting thought process .