I say no....a belief backed up by even the most conservative interpreters of the Constitution.

...but the conservative right continually brings up matters of religious faith as part of its political platform.

Why do you think that is?

You don't think that its the only way the right can hold onto voters who are obviously negatively affected by its economic policies do you? Why else do you think an booze guzzlin', cocaine snortin, frat boy might find Jesus shortly before a run at the presidency....

I agree h2o!...even though I was also known to guzzle a bit o' booze and snort a little booger sugar from time to time...

Never belonged to a Fraternity though.

PETA may be a PITA but I don't pay much mind to them. Until one of those SOBs spray paint one of my wife's furs, then I'll have the ass.

The extreme left that bothers me right now is that ELF group. Those guys are whacked. Burning down new homes is lunacy.

And the irony of some guy burning down a house thereby causing toxic pollution then running back to his own home in a once-wooded-lot-turned-development all in the name of the enviroment is sublime.

I am not sure where I see the stereotype?

We have a nation of faith in terms of the huge majority of our people who say they are religious to a degree or actively practice religion..Does that make a national religion? no...Does it mean that a small minority of folks should disparage relgion and defile anyone who bleieves in God...? Not in my book but obviously a few believe it is their duty to save humanity from God or religion..or maybe they feel compelled to force the rest of us into their secular world. who knows?>

Anyone see Frontline last night? I'm pretty sure it was a repeat but it was about GW and Evangelical Christians. GW, being an Evangelical Christian, purposely targeted their vote as it was discovered if they could get near 100% of that vote no other religious vote mattered due to the always small voter turn out. Since in office he has set about everything on their wish list. His faith based initiative is buried in seven departments of government as we speak. Only one department produces anything measurable about where and who the money is going to. 100% conservative christian groups. Zero to any other faith based group....your tax dollars. An evangelical christian believes the bible is the exact word of god and is to be taken literally word for word. He has tossed out verses from the bible repeatedly in his speeches and policy decisions. This is what scares the rest of the world.

No stlhead....It scares guys like you.

Funny thing i noticed the other day. The right has been all over Kerry for his anti war stuff and throing his medals and all that but when we bring up GW's actual crime of driving while drunk they say "ohh thatsh ancient history and not applicable"

What a crock.. Politics is disgusting, they are all corrupt.. why don't some of the good people of this board run for public office??? That is the solution you know.. good people running the country. what a novel concept..

Yes America has a national faith.. it's moto is, "not out of my wallet"

I believe if you took a nationwide look at what churches and other places of worship exist you would find 95%(+/-) of them to be of a Christian nature.

Now, that said, there are a jillion different varieties of "Christian" churches out there with doctrines from "soup to nuts", but they are noted as Christian faith churches.

As a whole, I would guess that 80%+ of American believe in "God". We are a nation of faith...different varieties, true, but a Nation of Faith we are.

I do not believe (strongly) that any one belief should have political strength over another. We have a Constitutional right to believe as we wish, but never to use that belief as political power over another.

Mike

MIke...good points..I think what is going on here is that people like H2O and Stlhead and Rob and Harley see freedom of religion and separation between church and state as a license to try to take religion away from everyone else. They hate the idea of religion and think anyone who has faith (except Muslims of course) is an extreme right wing fanantic. We have allowed the courts in this country to pander to this small minority of zealots in the name of church and state separation.

Are the 85% the crazy ones or are the 15%?

George Washington, who said, “In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts affairs of men more than the people of the United States.”

Or Abraham Lincoln, who acknowledged, “I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for that day.”

Or Grover Cleveland, who said, “Above all, I know there is a Supreme Being who rules the affairs of men and whose goodness and mercy have always followed the American people, and I know He will not turn from us now if we humbly and reverently seek His powerful aid.”

Or Dwight Eisenhower, who professed, “Without God there could be no American form of government nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first – the most basic – expression of Americanism.”

GP, where do you get a notion like that of me? I'm raised Catholic with 8 years of parochial school (which partly explains my perverted ways ). I am a firm believer in God and fear his retribution for my personal acts.

However, those are my beliefs and they are very personal. In fact I feel that one's faith and belief in a higher power should be of the very most personal nature.

I will never attempt to force my beliefs onto anyone else, and I find it the worst of personal offenses when someone tries to force theirs on me. For example, trying to pigeonhole me into a stereotype simply because I oppose the current administration's tactics against terrorism that seem to be derived from an evangelical rationale.

I have my beliefs, my religion, and I am very close to - and at peace - with God. Don't try to slander me just because I don't goose-step to your ultra-conservative black-and-white view of humanity. There's an awfully big world out there and it doesn't revolve around the GOP.

GP, I was raised Lutheran and I see the issue the exact opposite you do....go figure. Instead of freedom of religion and freedom from religion I see a party who has been highjacked by the extreme religious right and is trying to shove their religious beliefs and ideals down the throats of all Americans. They twist the 1st amendment to claim they are being oppressed by seperation of church and state. Anti freedom zealots.

Grandpa.


I see religious freedom as a vehicle to Believe the bible. Even where is says things I don't like. For instance where is says that for a rich man to enter heaven is as hard as getting a camel through the eye of a needle , which of course is impossible. The thing we are to learn from that being that it is impossible for a rich man to go to heaven.

Or where the bible tells us that narrow is the path but few find it. Leading us to believe that very few people will go to heaven.

Or where the bible teaches us that sin separates us from God in such a way that we cannot cross over too him.
In short i use my freedom to believe that salvation from damnation is utterly impossible by human effort. Because after all thats exactly what the bible teaches.

That being the case it's easy to say that most people in America even thoes who claim to be of faith are in fact not. Thus leaving America without a national faith other than worshiping gods of our own creation.

even with my religious views being what they are and believeing all others to be false I choose not to try and push my views on anyone and have no desire to make people believe what i believe.
Some people may do things that I think are stupid or even evil and i may say something about that but i also understand that that is the condition of us all. So who am i to judge?

Pmartin excellent quotes and this one points out what i am trying to say.

"..........I know He will not turn from us now if we humbly and reverently seek His powerful aid.”
I agree 100% but would also see that the vast majority of Americans do not do that and we are in my opinion starting to see God turn from our nation on account of our lack of faith.

Did you notice the past tense referances , " Iwas raised" I am Raised". You can not in any way shape or form support abortion and consider yourself Christian. Voting for a liberal candidate is supporting abortion.

TheKing

Not true

Ahhh what? Did I read that right King? You're kidding of course? :rolleyes:

I like to razz you about your extreme right-wing views, but I fear you've stepped off the edge with that statement!


If you was just trollin'... looks like I took the bait. If you were serious... might I suggest immediate psychiatric treatment, perhaps even being permanently institutionalized!

4salt,

Thats the problem with libs they want to create their own reality and have it both ways. Show where in the bible you can justify abortion. It will be easier for you rather than me show you all the areas that say it's wrong. I would use all this boards bandwidth. Secondly, when you cast your vote for something it's the same as doing it yourself. I know you libs like to shift ,dodge and weave reality but denial of that is over the top. Please cite chapeter and vs. and show me some of the better known bible scholars views on aboriton and faith.

I look forward to your reply.

Sin is sin there is no sin that is worse than any other sin except in the mind of human beings. Her eis a list of things you cannot support if you are a christian and that are just as bad as murder including abortion.


1. gossip
2. adultery ( including remarriage after a divorce)
3. drunkeness ( let alone drinking and driving)
4. same gender sexual activity
5. gluttony
6. not submitting to the rule of every governing body. hmm it seems our founding fathers must not have been christians
7.not paying wages that represent the profit you make.
8. astrology
9. selfish ambition
10. envy ( when was the last time you got upset cause somoene outbid you on ebay??
11. showing favoritism
12.unforgivness
13. sueing other christians
14.and on and on and on
there are tons and tons and tons of things you cannot support as a christian even the wonton destruction of our enviroment. The truth is All men are sinners including thoes running for political offices that means that they all support some sort of sinful behavior and are therefore equally unsupportable if you are a christian. The idea that you cannot support an pro choice candidate and not be a christian is factually and biblically incorrect and thinking that way is the most basic of misunderstandings of what christianity is.
Christianity ,grace through faith in Jesus Christ. PERIOD thats it there is nothing more,EVER. the apostle Paul even said that he wished that people who added to the gospel would be eternally condemned He thought it was an extremely sever offence because it misled other people. This is exactly the same kind of thing for which he rebuked Peter. As one of my favorite pastors liked to say. " it's grace plus NOTHING" Dr Bill Ritchie crossroads community church Vancouver WA

By the way Bush doesn't support pro life He just uses pro life to gain the right wing vote.
I am a pro life christian and I cannot in good concience vote for George Bush..

RobAllen,

You know the answer, I was baiting them:-)
I was waiting to see inernet search generated anwers not from their own answers.

You did a pretty good job of answering the question. All sin is equal in the eyes of God. That deals with the earthly portion of our life. We also need to deal with organized religion and the doctrine of the various churches. Check out Revelations and studies of revelations. There is more judgement as a part of the tribulation and our earthly deeds with be dealt with and the true Christains sorted out in various fashion.

I knew you were trollin' King! You may be an ultra-conservative right-wing wacko, but I get the feeling you're also a pretty reasonable guy deep down

As one who was raised Catholic, including 8 years of parochial school, I've been force-fed enough religious doctrine to choke a horse!

I could cut-and-paste more legal and moral debates on abortion than you could ever read in a lifetime! Problem is, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so! No matter how eloquently I presented my views it just wouldn't matter. We both know that BOTH our minds are already made up as to how we feel, and NO amount of convincing by either side is going to change that. So preach on if you must... perhaps there IS someone out there who is undecided as to their stance on abortion, but I REALLY doubt it...

Gulp.. wiggle, jump, thrash and run.
you may have caught me
but release me i'm a wild one.

RA3 - perhaps I missunderstood you when you said:

"The thing we are to learn from that being that it is impossible for a rich man to go to heaven."

Is that really how you understand that text, or were you just making a point?

The point of the text is that by our OWN merits, there is no way we can get to heaven. We can't earn it through 'good deeds' or even through money and power. This was the mission of Jesus Christ - to do the impossible and bridge the gap between sinful man and the perfect God....

Anyway - I understand the paranoia with Bush and Christian Evangelicals \ Fundamentalists. You fear what you don't know. And sometimes you fear even what you do know. Christianity surely challenges many lifestyles, choices, laws, and so called 'rights' of many people and cultures. And many throughout history have abused their leadership and suposed power in 'the name of God'. And Christians and non-Christians need to be on the lookout for these dangerous types. If GW is not being honest about his faith - he is surely a danger and a threat to all. But I'm not convinced he is not sincere in his faith. I'm troubled by much of what I see including some of the enviromental policies, but without first hand knowlege, I do not see enough evidence to condem him and the direction he is taking this country. There are a lot of questions and issues I'd like answers to, but that is always the case - no matter who is in charge.

4salt,

Some times a short cast works better somtimes a long one:-) I like to stir it up a little to keep the debate interesting.

Phish

Maybe i approach this part of the text with more severity than most people because i think it's important to understand one thing about the human condition, maybe there is a better forum for this discussuon but i guess this is where it came up so thi is where it should be.
The human condition as displayed in this text is that we are fallen and redemption is utterly impossible. I think that is the point of the entire bible. Humans are totally and completely without any form of hope of avoiding hell because what we do is evil.
That in my opinion is the realization we all need to come to, because only that will drive us to our knees insearch of the mercy we so desperatly need.
When that is reached then God can give us the gift of faith in Christ the one who takes away and foregives our sin.

For thoes not interested in the religious part of this debate I apologize for having this discussion here.

OK RA3 - I agree with you. I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying...

May I also point out that there are people in this world that will tell you with a straight face that you can't be a christian and believe in evolution, period.

There may even be a few true believers left in the church that cling to pre-copernican astronomy.

...and people wonder why the 'moral fabric' of our society is unravelling. :rolleyes:

LOL. For a guy who is so radically anti-christian, you sure seem to like to talk about it a lot. Then again, I guess that does make sense. Keep trolling, but try a little harder. Right now it's just tiring and predictable.

Yes! When we get a big one on we all say something like, "God please don't let me lose this one."

" For a guy who is so radically anti-christian..."

I can certainly see how my railing for the sanctity of the separation of church and state would be perceived by you to be anti-christian. What of my interweb writings have you found 'radical'? I definitely disagree with nearly everything conservative christians stand for but, it may surprise you to know that I was baptised and raised in the Methodist church so my personal beliefs and philosophies reflect that, to a point.

I also believe there are other gospels of the Bible that have not been included,more for political reasons than for their authenticity. Specifically, the book of Mary Magdalene. If you are familiar with this line of research and investigation then you'll know there is a significant body of evidence that supports these beliefs rather than being some sort of crackpot conspiracy theory.

How's that for radical? At least I'm not out shooting abortion doctors or setting fire to learning institutions in the name of my cause.

Occasionally I have been known to wear a head band and shout into a microphone. That's pretty radical too I know......

The reasons I speak out against ultra-conservatism of all forms are many and well founded....

Copernicus

Galileo

Da Vinci

Magellan

Newton

Gandhi

MLK

Malcolm X

Kent State

Grandpa

...and Plunker, to name just a few.

When I'm not busy burning black candles, practicing pagan Magick, enlisting cult members, studying Marx, emulating Mao and plotting my next serial kill....

...I sometimes worship Bail...Why just this morning I sacrificed several bananas to the bovine god/dess.

hmm women subserviant? not in Christianity.

"Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant chuch without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish but holy and blamless. In this same way husbands ought to love their wives."

Anyone who has the impression that in christianity the women are second class clearly doesn't understand. ahh but them maybe it's because there are so few good examples of men loving their wives in that way exsist as ofcourse is the case with most virtues.

h2O..thanks for including me in that group of folks....not sure what it means though

And as far as you being raised in the Methodist church I think what you mean is that your poor parents tried to raise you with some sort of faith but somewhere along the way you found your own way....The only religion I can see you embracing is Islam.

be sure to check out Nick Berg's beheading at the hands of terrorists today....some real fodder for your support of Islam and abhorrance of christianity. Great videos on Arab tv too so you can get plenty of material to blame Bush and America and the radical christian right etc etc etc....

I wonder who you are really deep down mad at? besides me and AuntyM and Slab and Plunker I mean...maybe your parents? who knows.

http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm

Here you go H2O.....pictures of the beheading.

"You will only get shroud after shroud and coffin after coffin slaughtered in this manner," it said.

"As for you Bush, dog of the Christians, anticipate what will harm you... You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate Muslims."

The murder was condemned by the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a U.S.-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group.

" Their job is to take care of the young or sick and do as their male leaders instruct them to do. Throughout Christian history women have been forced into subservience. "


You need to do some research on this. You have been taught wrong or have a mis understanding of the Gospel

Simply because somewhere in the bible it says women should be honored in some way, the thousands of years of oppressing women doesn't exist?

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Did we allow women to vote yet? I know they get special minority status in bidding government jobs. Are they allowed to read books and go to school?

Most married guys on here are always saying they have to check with "the wife" before they can go fishing and they usually say they can't go anywhere unless their "honeydo list " is complete. Sounds like the women are in control to me...what's the beef?

It would be interesting to see where the World stood on equal rights if Christianity never existed. I wonder if Islam would have taken over what are now (or were) essentially 'Christian' nations (ie - the dominating faith\religion)?

Christianity had and still has major cultural hurdles when it comes to issues like this. Just like slavery, many chose to disregard or even mis-use the biblical teachings to continue or promote their social\cultural status and practices. But like all lies and deception, the word of God stood firm and eventually over came. But as you have probably guessed, culture\society and Biblical teaching are continuously finding ways to battle eachother. Even at the individual level, living according to the word of God is not easy and we all rebel in our own ways....

My point? Christian people and Christian people's traditions and cultures are to blame for many of the above examples of oppression. But Christianity itself is the great equalizor of all time. "The ground at the foot of the cross is level..."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/109/52.0.html

Christian History Corner: Is Christianity Oppressive to Women?

“Has Christianity been oppressive to women? Yes. Is Christ? No. As the apostle Paul insisted, "In Christ's family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in common relationship with Jesus Christ" (Gal. 3:28).”


http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2002/07/daily-07-19-2002.shtml

July 19, 1848 • First Women's Right's Convention

“Christ Jesus treated women with respect. Not surprisingly, Christianity has elevated women more than any other world religion. And so it was that Christian women in a Christian church acting on a largely Christian agenda initiated the women's rights movement on this day, July 19, 1848.”

Many religions and people calling themselves Christians have misrepresented the word of God. Just as many calling themselves Christians commit a whole host of other sins and wrongs. Do not judge the word of God by what men do but by the word itself. If it were a book about how to catch 30lb steelehead most would read it inside and out and research it until death to understand the truth of it all. Yet when it comes to religion they use the actions of weak people as a reason to walk away or a light skimmining of the books to make their judgements. Interesting thought process .

LOL.....you'd do very well in India.

My thoughts on religion:

Organized religion is, and always has been, a tool for controlling the masses and really nothing more than that. My personal beliefs are my religion and they do not 100% agree with any organized religion that I know of.

gpa-

you really have absolutely no clue do you?

it must be fun for you to sit there and just make **** up about me.

That you take the time to do so makes me feel special.

Ohh, my poor poor parents....HA!!

You've passed YOUR evil ideals onto succeeding generations all the while indignant in your reightousness.

Consistently on this board you resort to denigration and insults when your arguments fall short.

When you start with the insults genius, I win.

Here, here stlhd!

This quote isn't verbatim, but I think it's close enough to convey my point:

"The one thing ALL organized religions have in common is the belief that their's is the one TRUE religion, and ALL the others are wrong."

"religion is the opiate of the masses".....

quick !!!
who said that?
come one stlhead....H2O...I know you know...

so do you obviously. Does that make YOU a pinko?

America needs to let 'radical christianity' quit dictating its values and get back to the center, that is the point of this thread.

RA3-

On fishing stuff we usually agree but on the role of women in the Christian church...well if you want to start quoting the bible brother the quotes of how a woman should be subserviant to her man are many. I know you don't need me to point them out to you but i suppose if you'd like to we could engage a war of bible quotes...

Let's just look at recent history first before we go there...

Women didn't even have the right to vote in our 'Christian', 'equal' society until less than a hundred years ago. How is that not subserviant?

This is not to say that women have not occupied significant roles in or made significant contributions to society but that they have had to do so from a position of disadvantage.

Carrying it even further than that the major churches have had a propensity to put down, marginalize, and terrorize those that would dare to believe other than whatever the approved dogma of the time, no matter how wrong.

This, I believe, is precisely the reason to keep christian idealism out of the US government.

As late as the '60's women weren't allowed, by law, to sit at a bar and drink beer here in Washington.

What do you suppose men did with all those one-liners before that?

Remember Aunty that in India it is a general practice to abort female babies. Ultrasound is really big business. I'm not sure they do this due to religion just from plain stupidity.

And , yes, H2O it is fun to make **** up about you....you make a very good victim. Besides, even though I respect your intelligence, I disagree with most of what you pass off as absolute fact. A serious debate would require so much foil I might collapse from the weight.

Aunty M I didn't mean any offence at all. I think what you'll find is that What Christ and his Apostles taught is a very far cry from what you see in the lives of thoes who claim to be christians. My point is about what God teaches vs what the church does.
Men and women both are sinful and need of redemption and once death takes us there is no distinction between the sexes. The bible and history are full of examples of men dropping the ball and women picking it up and running with it.
Jesus to my recollection never gave specific commands for how women and men were supposed to behave differently. Paul only said that he didn't allow women to teach or have authority over a man, and in fact had on numerous occasions great things to say about women who were faithfully doing Gods work.

again my point was the difference between what God says and what people do.

On the other hand there is a law in the books in Montana that a woman cannot fish alone on Sundays.

gee Rob you are a very good debater on this issue ..I'm surprised that H2O hasn't labelled you an extreme right wing religious fanatic...As usual the passion for your beliefs comes shining through...and without any name calling.
good for you.

Aunty M now I would say that Christianity has had very little impact on any political party. They are all selfish money and power grubbing corrupted jerks.
Now we are all corrupted individuals and there is no one who is blamless least of all me but we can certainly look at individuals and by what they DO ( not say) we can tell what they believe. I think it more accurate to say that the Political right is taking the religious right for a ride. They are using issues important to the religious right to get their votes then ignoreing thoes issues altogether or at least not doing anything meaningful about them. Take abortion for example. Everyone knows that Bush ran on an anti abortion platform but has he done anything meaningful on the issue? or the republican controlled congress for that matter. The truth of the matter is that the republicans are useing the issue of abortion to get the vote of the religious right then not doing anything about it for fear of losing the few cross over voters that they do have. I guess what I am saying it that it's a scam and it leaves the religious right out in the cold like the rest of us..

I never did answer the question so here goes.

Yes we do have a national faith its called money.

Now that's the first thing you've said recently King that makes any sense! :p

King

I will also agree with you on that one

The Golden Rule:

He who Has the Gold Makes The Rules