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#266762 - 05/18/04 09:20 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Well 4salt...all I know is I paid less taxes in 2003....I must be one of those rich a holes who gets all the breaks.
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#266763 - 05/18/04 09:22 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
"One can never be too rich or too
thin or have too much foreskin."
John A. Erickson
British Journal of Urology (Letters), August 1997

http://www.foreskin.org/page2.htm
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#266764 - 05/19/04 04:26 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Quote:
Well 4salt...all I know is I paid less taxes in 2003....I must be one of those rich a holes who gets all the breaks.
So did I Grandpa, and the selfish side of me enjoyed it. The problem with deficit spending, which you tried to attribute solely to the Democrats, is that eventually the debt has to be paid back. Do you want your grandson to have to pay outrageous income taxes when he comes of working age in twenty years or so just so you can use your 2003 tax savings to take that trip to Maui this year?

I make a comfortable living myself and I DO NOT begrudge anyone else who seeks the "American Dream". I do however also believe in fiscal responsibility. Something that the Republican party used to pride itself on.

So tell me... What happened?
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#266765 - 05/19/04 04:55 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
You may have paid less in taxes but did you spend less money last year? I sure didn't.
_________________________
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#266766 - 05/19/04 09:07 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
congress spends the money and approves the deficit spending so both sides can get us into trouble. I actually had some real hope when it looked like the debt was being paid off and when all those dot.com companies were giving me lots of business and spending like drunken sailors...then it turned out that they were spending all that venture capital on fluff and not on substance so in the blink of an eye most of them are out of business. We suffered a big downturn and then 9/11....not hard to see why the hard times.

And Stlhead ...I spent less last year on day to day things but invested a bunch for the long term. This year is turning out to be a good one financially
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#266767 - 05/20/04 12:07 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
Well you must have received one heck of a tax cut then. I spent more than my "tax cut" just on the higher cost of gas. Throw in my jacked up power bill and I ended up losing money.
_________________________
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#266768 - 05/20/04 10:26 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
yes stlhead...I paid a **** load in taxes last year and even more the three previous years...but in 2003 I got a break....I needed a break after helping to prop up the other 85% of the folks who don't pay enough. Probably why I can't tolerate today's new Democrats.
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#266769 - 05/24/04 11:53 AM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
Oh you mean CEO's and such.
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#266770 - 05/24/04 09:10 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Actually what I meant was that the upper income people you seem to despise so much seem to pay the bulk of the taxes in this country...Those folks in the bottom 50% should not begrudge those above them as without them they might have to pay their "fair share".


Number of Returns
(000)
AGI
($000,000)
Income Taxes Paid
($000,000)
Group's Share of Total AGI
Group's Share of Income Taxes
Income Split Point
Average Tax Rate

All Taxpayers 128,817 6,241,036 887,682 100.0% 100.0% 14.2%

Top 1% 1,288 1,094,296 300,898 17.5% 33.9% above $ 292,913 27.5%

Top 5% 6,441 1,996,492 472,823 32.0% 53.3% above $ 127,904 23.7%
Top 10% 12,882 2,690,589 576,163 43.1% 64.9% above $ 92,754 21.4%
Top 25% 32,204 4,071,034 736,053 65.2% 82.9% above $ 56,085 18.1%
Top 50% 64,409 5,379,286 852,642 86.2% 96.1% above $ 28,528 15.9%
Bottom 50% 64,409 861,750 35,040 13.8% 3.9% below $ 28,528 4.1%
Source: IRS

Kind of hard to see as the spread sheet didn't line up but let's just focus on the bottom 50% of taxpayers....They contribute only 13.8% of income reported by all....The bottom 50% of all taxpayers only pays 3.9% of all income taxes. The top 25% of taxpayers pay almost 85% of all income taxes.

Not only does that top 25% pay the lion's share of the tax load but they are also the ones who provide most of the jobs....other than the government jobs so many have....so many of the biggest complainers I submit have one of those dandy government jobs.
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#266771 - 05/24/04 09:17 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 393
Loc: Portland
Could you post the link to that source, I wouldn't mind seeing the table.

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#266772 - 05/24/04 09:21 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
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#266773 - 05/24/04 09:24 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 393
Loc: Portland
I was planning on thanking you but after the last comment... nah

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#266774 - 05/24/04 09:33 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Oh come on....you can come up with some kind of slam I bet
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#266775 - 05/24/04 09:48 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 393
Loc: Portland
Contrary to what you believe I wanted to see the data you posted in the original chart so I could understand it. As it is posted on this thread I was having a difficult time interpreting the data.

Maybe you could try not to be so insulting all the time? just a thought!

For information sake I have an accounting degree and passed 2 of the 4 sections of the CPA exam (I have since given up, I hate auditing and had a difficult time with the law section) so I do find this kind of data interesting.

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#266776 - 05/24/04 11:09 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Points well taken..sorry I jumped the gun. Not trying to be insulting. I am so used to the predictable responses I didn't let you make yours before dismissing it....I think the figures provided by the IRS show what my point was. Hard to see in the cut and paste form for sure.
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#266777 - 05/24/04 11:29 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
ABC NEWS
W A S H I N G T O N, April 15 — Another way the rich are different: They pay the lion's share of the nation's income tax bill.

"The wealthiest 5 percent pay more than half the taxes, while people in the bottom half pay just 4 percent.
Two-income households are increasing, putting more families in the top slice of taxpayers. Millions of small businesses and partnerships are up there, too, paying personal instead of corporate income taxes. Many other people were boosted by the 1990s stock market boom.

President Bush's big tax cut will prevent the wealthy from paying an even greater share in coming years. But key provisions, such as the gradual doubling of the child tax credit, will reduce or eliminate income taxes for many middle-income people while the rich won't qualify.

"This trend is not going to reverse," said Scott Hodge, executive director of the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan tax education and research group. "This will be the demographic for the 21st century taxpayer."


Shifting Tax Brackets

For 1999, the most recent year for which complete Internal Revenue Service statistics are available, 6.3 million taxpayers whose incomes were in the top 5 percent paid more than 55 percent of all income taxes. They had incomes above $120,846 a year meaning two spouses could each earn a bit over $60,000 and be considered among the nation's richest.

"It's very easy to move into the top echelon of taxpayers," Hodge said.

The wealthiest 1 percent those earning $293,415 and up paid over a third of the taxes, while their share of the nation's taxable income was 19 percent. They pay income taxes at the top rate, now 38.6 percent, compared with a maximum rate of 15 percent for the majority of lower-earning taxpayers.

Taxpayers in the bottom half paid only 4 percent of the income taxes in 1999, according to the IRS. These 63 million taxpayers earned, on average, less than $26,415 a year.

Going back to 1989, the top 5 percent income group paid about 44 percent of income taxes, the bottom almost 6 percent. At that time, the top tax rate paid by high earners was 31 percent.

Looking ahead, the 10-year, $1.35 trillion tax cut enacted last year reduces income taxes in three steps, with the final step coming in 2006. In that year, according to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation, taxpayers earning over $100,000 a year will pay almost 59 percent of all income taxes.

Those with annual incomes of less than $30,000 a year will pay about 4.4 percent in 2006, roughly the same as they do today.

A Wealth of Problems

In Congress, this disparity in the tax burden causes perennial political trouble for Republican tax-cutters because any across-the-board reduction meets with Democratic criticism that it would mainly benefit the wealthy while siphoning away money for government programs.

For that reason, many tax breaks contain income cutoff points that leave out the top income earners.

A prime example is the child tax credit, which is $600 for the tax returns due April 15 and will gradually rise to $1,000. This year, that credit begins to phase out for married couples filing jointly who earn more than $110,000 a year.

The IRS says the rising child credit, which is $100 higher than last year, is a major factor in the 12 percent increase in average tax refunds this year. Many lower-earning taxpayers who claim the credit get a refund even if it effectively eliminates their entire tax liability.

Another program for lower-income Americans is the earned income tax credit, which is intended to offset the burden of Social Security payroll taxes. In 1999, about 13 million taxpayers claimed about $21 billion in credits, which also can trigger a refund even for those with no tax liability.

At the higher end of the income spectrum, the IRS now receives more than 24 million individual income tax returns from certain kinds of corporations and partnerships that don't pay corporate income taxes. Those are frequently paying at the highest tax rate.

Perhaps the biggest reason the rich are paying a higher share is that they continue to get richer, said Joel Slemrod, economics professor at the University of Michigan. Between 1980 and 1999, the share of total taxable U.S. income earned by the top 5 percent rose from 21 percent to 34 percent. "
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#266778 - 05/25/04 07:30 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 393
Loc: Portland
Well Gpa your comment obviously irritated me. I specifically attempted to write this post without being a "spindoctor" and merely pointing out another way of looking at it. It is a long post and overly simplified while specifically focusing only on a very tiny part of the issue.

So one of my pet peeves about discussions on taxes is that most people have only a general understanding of how taxes work. Due to the “general” understanding there are all sorts of myths associated with tax issues. A good example and one of my favorites is the old I got a raise but it took me into a higher tax bracket so it really ended up costing me more money. That is just inherently wrong because the tax system is graduated. I won’t bother explaining what a graduated tax scale is, google can do that for me.

While everything Gpa posted is true I would like to point out some real problems or at least perceived problems with “tax breaks”. I think it also leads people to question what “fair share” means.

Your taxes are calculated off of adjusted gross income (AGI). AGI also affects limits on allowable deductions. With that said typically not all of your income is AGI there are certain things that are removed from your gross income to end up at AGI hence it being called “adjusted”. It is pretty simple idea that is made complicated by the tax code.

Most people see a tax break in terms of the impact it has on them and not on the overall tax picture of the country. Bush’s recent tax breaks put more money in my pocket and that is something I like but it also put a lot more money (percentage wise) into wealthier people’s pockets. One could argue that sure it put more in their pocket than mine because they earn more and overall that would be true if the percentage were the same. In actuality wealthy people tend to have different sources of income than myself, they don’t just get a w-2 and then go and file. They receive capital gains, dividends etc…

Bush’s latest tax breaks reduced the percentage on some of these other types of income (without digging it up exact figures I believe it was dividend income got reduced to 30 something percent). Wealthy people tend to have a higher percentage of their income in these other forms of income or have the luxury of changing their investments to take advantage of the change i.e. move them from non-dividend issuing stocks to stocks that issue dividends. Anyway, my point in all of this is that not all tax breaks are evenly distributed among all the societal “classes”. Generally speaking wealthy people have more opportunity to take advantage of tax shelters, loopholes and in some cases tax breaks over the middle class who either don’t tend to have that luxury or can’t afford the top-notch tax accountant.

I believe with the above in mind you can see where people can believe that wealthy people do not always pay their “fair share” even when it is within the legal bounds of the tax code. As far as I am concerned about the subject I personally do not believe the blame should fall on the wealthy. Seriously, if you had the same advantage you would also capitalize on the opportunity to pay less to the government, I know I would.

I am usually more interested in how tax breaks affect the people making/approving the break or those who have influence on said people.

Tax breaks don’t turn economies, they can assist but they alone do not turn economies. Consumer confidence is about the only thing that can turn an economy around. As consumer confidence continues to improve, so will our economy. One of the non-political reason I think the war is not a good thing. I don’t think it is helping our confidence.

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#266779 - 05/25/04 07:51 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
Ah the old welfare argument. By my salary I am considered in the bottom of the "rich" by some charts and I pay a butt load of taxes. But, I don't see the "bottom" half shirking their tax duties as much as the upper half and mostly the very elite. Unfortunately it is almost all legal under our "welfare" for the elite tax system. If you take deductions you are on welfare. I deduct my mortgage so I am on a form of welfare. I am a strong advocate of a flat tax system with no deductions what so ever.
_________________________
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#266780 - 05/25/04 08:55 PM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 393
Loc: Portland
In my mind a flat tax is unrealistic. It is an ideal that I do not believe takes into account all the complexities of our society. A for instance off the top of my head. The flat tax would have the potential of being too much of a burden for the person on welfare legitimately trying to get off of it and potentially keeping them on it by decreasing the motivation to actually get off of it.

The other question that comes to mind is are there unbias studies that demonstrate that a flat tax could actually generate the kind of money necessary to effectively run the country. I know with Forbes proposals and some others there was some serious doubt raised about this concern. I personally have never investigated those proposals enough to be able to draw my own conclusion.

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#266781 - 05/26/04 08:52 AM Re: War on terror v. War in Iraq
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1796
Loc: Brier, Washington
Our tax system is made up of incentives or rewards for certain behavior. The "rich" get a lot of breaks because they respond to the incentives in the tax code by changing their behavior to take advantage of the things offered. Less fortunate people do the same thing. Child credit rewards having kids. Just like our welfare system, there are also incentives to stay poor. The system is so huge now I can't see how we could jump to a flat tax.
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