Naw not all Americans are dumb...just the less than 50% that voted for Bush in 2000 :p

I agree with what Ed Says.


Koch: Moore's propaganda film cheapens debate, polarizes nation

By Ed Koch SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Monday, June 28, 2004 It is shocking to me that Americans in a time of war, and we literally are at war with Americans being deliberately killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere by Islamic terrorists, will attack their own country, sapping its strength and making its enemies stronger. I am not a supporter of the xenophobic slogan “My country right or wrong.” But I do believe, when seeking to make it right if it is wrong, that none of us should endanger the country, our military personnel or our fellow citizens.

Disagreeing with America’s foreign policy and seeking to change it, responsibly or irresponsibly, is a fundamental right protected by the First Amendment. Shaming those who do it irresponsibly is our only lawful recourse and rightly so.

Senator John Kerry in criticizing United States’ foreign policy and the incumbent president is acting responsibly, albeit I disagree with many of his views. On the other hand, Michael Moore, writer and director of the film “Fahrenheit 9/11,” crosses that line regularly. The line is not set forth in the criminal statutes, but it is determined by Americans who know instinctively what actions and statements taken and uttered violate the obligations of responsibility and citizenship they deem applicable in time of war.

David Brooks, in a brilliant New York Times column on June 26, collected some of the statements that Michael Moore has been making in other countries which denigrate the U.S. and, in my opinion, cross the line. Brooks writes:

“Before a delighted Cambridge crowd, Moore reflected on the tragedy of human existence: ‘You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.’ In Liverpool, he paused to contemplate the epicenters of evil in the modern world: ‘It's all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton…We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants...Don't be like us,’ he told a crowd in Berlin. ‘You've got to stand up, right? You've got to be brave.’ In an open letter to the German people in Die Zeit, Moore asked, ‘Should such an ignorant people lead the world?’ In an interview with a Japanese newspaper, Moore helped citizens of that country understand why the United States went to war in Iraq: ‘The motivation for war is simple. The U.S. government started the war with Iraq in order to make it easy for U.S. corporations to do business in other countries. They intend to use cheap labor in those countries, which will make Americans rich.’ But venality doesn't come up when he writes about those who are killing Americans in Iraq: ‘The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not `insurgents' or `terrorists' or `The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow — and they will win.’ Until then, few social observers had made the connection between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Paul Revere.”

Undoubtedly, too long a quote, but there is no substitute for the original. A year after 9/11, I was part of a panel discussion on BBC-TV’s “Question Time” show which aired live in the United Kingdom. A portion of my commentary at that time follows:

“One of the panelists was Michael Moore, writer and director of the award-winning documentary “Roger & Me.” During the warm-up before the studio audience, Moore said something along the lines of “I don’t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightening than die from an act of terror.” I was aghast and responded, “I think what you have said is outrageous, particularly when we are today commemorating the deaths of 3,000 people resulting from an act of terror.” I mention this exchange because it was not televised, occurring as it did before the show went live. It shows where he was coming from long before he produced “Fahrenheit 9/11.”

Many in the audience assembled by the BBC included Americans and people from other nations. Their positive responses to Moore on this and other comments he made during the program convinced me that the producers had found a lair of dingbats when looking to fill the studio with an audience. Moore later called President Bush a “dummy,” denigrating him for having threatened Iraq with consequences including war if it did not comply with the United Nations resolutions to which it agreed when it was defeated in the 1991 Gulf War. Again, I couldn’t contain myself and said, “That’s what you radicals on the left always do. You don’t debate issues, you denigrate your opponents. You did it with President Reagan, saying he was dumb. After he left office, 600 speeches, many hand-written by him, demonstrated his high intelligence.”

In World Wars I and II, the U.S., suffering great casualties to its military personnel, saved the world, particularly in WWII, from occupation by the German Nazi Reich and Japanese empire. We currently are fighting the battle against a minority of fundamentalist Islamists whose objective is to destroy Western civilization. They are willing to use every act of terrorism from suicide bombers to hacking off heads to destroy and terrorize us into surrender. And Michael Moore weakens us before that enemy. How should we respond? With scorn, catcalls, the Bronx cheer and the truth. Of course, we should recognize the outrages and criminal acts committed by Americans in military service and civilians at the Iraqi prison Abu Ghraib. We should continue as we have done and take action to punish those involved. But we ought not in the media show again and again the pictures of the atrocities to simply flagellate ourselves and give aid and comfort to our enemies. A good rule of thumb might be to show the pictures of Abu Ghraib as many times as we show the beheadings of Danny Pearl, Nicholas Berg and Paul Johnson.

I am a movie critic, so I went to see “Fahrenheit 9/11.” The movie is a well-done propaganda piece and screed as has been reported by most critics. It is not a documentary which seeks to present the facts truthfully. The most significant offense that movie commits is to cheapen the political debate by dehumanizing the President and presenting him as a cartoon.

Newsday reported some of Moore’s misstatements as follows: “At the start of ‘Fahrenheit 9/11,’ filmmaker Michael Moore shows a clip of CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin saying that if ballots had been recounted in Florida after the 2000 presidential vote, ‘under every scenario Gore won the election.’

“What Moore doesn't show is that a six-month study in 2001 by news organizations including The New York Times, the Washington Post and CNN found just the opposite. Even if the Supreme Court had not stopped a statewide recount, or if a more limited recount of four heavily Democratic counties had taken place, Bush still would have won Florida and the election…Moore suggests Bush's conflict of interest was manifest shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks when the White House ‘approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis’ who, fearing reprisals, were flown out of the United States. Embellishing the well-known scenario, Moore interviews a retired FBI agent who says authorities should have first questioned the bin Ladens.

“But the bin Ladens were questioned. The commission investigating the attacks reported in April that the FBI interviewed 30 passengers: ‘Nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights who the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks’” It is clear to me from the tenor of the film’s off-screen commentary by Michael Moore that he would have denounced WW II. Did he support the United States and NATO going into Bosnia to save the Muslims from ethnic cleansing and destruction? Would he agree that we should have attempted to save the Muslim men from death at the hands of the Serbs in Srebrenica? Should we now be going into the Sudan and saving perhaps a million black Christian and Animist Sudanese from Arab marauders who are murdering, raping and starving the blacks and even selling some into slavery? Weren’t we right to go into Iraq on the basis of United Nations Resolution 1441 which stated the Iraqis had weapons of mass destruction and that was a cause for war unless they accounted for them and destroyed them, which they refused to do?

Now that no WMDs have yet been found, was the invasion to end the reign of Saddam Hussein, who had killed and tortured hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, still supportable? Moore thinks not. I think, yes.

The movie’s diatribes, sometimes amusing and sometimes manifestly unfair, will not change any views. They will simply cheapen the national debate and reinforce the opinions on both sides.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edward I. Koch, who served as mayor of New York City from 1978 to 1989, is a partner in the law firm of Bryan Cave.

Guess I'm not the flavor of the month anymore huh?
BTW tell Mike happy birthday for me

Good for Ed Koch. He has his opinion, Moore has a differing one.

Next!

It's sad to see political "debate" ruin a friendship...

You put two fisherman of the same method side by side the politics go away . They will lie to each other and speak poorly of each others abilities and upbringing. But all in friendship.

I went to see it (F 911) and enjoyed it. Michael Moore did a wonderful and masterful job making this film. Definately a must see. Don't let bullys keep you from seeing it. We are not terrorist's or a threat to National security by going to see this movie. The Patriot Act doesn't forbid us from going to the movies. Just tired of this scare um and keep em quiet bull. For those extreme control freaks, no need to Call Home Land Security because the number's seeing this movie is to great for them to come kicking down everyone door.

It does'nt make you any less patriotic or American, as anyone else, by checking it out. Tired of this one upsmanship with patriatism crap. Debates are healthy and this movie definitely adds abundant material. Unless you see it for yourself, you have no reference or basis for a factual critique of THIS MOVIE. Definitely an improvement from his other works.

There are a variety of movies out there and a variety of newspapers and tabloids. Some people skoff at them and some swear that what they see and read is absoulute fact. In fact I was in Westport this weekend with 6 other fishermen and politics didn't come up once. I did see a newspaper that had a front page story about the BigFoot baby that was just born..There was even a picture. Michael Moore has every right to make a movie just like tha author of the bigfoot baby story. Some will suck it up and some won't.

I have been fishing for years and the older I get the more I strive for positive and healthy life affirming fishing experiences. Lieing to and criticizing others is to must of a distraction for me. Let alone, attacking someone because of their upbring. I'v seen my share of bigoted Rednecks and their mischief hate, while out trying to have an enjoyable day. Don't try to make every fisherman you see your personal good OLE boy and expect him to take a bunch of crap. That **** is to dangerous . I stay away from guy's that do that crap, so I don't have to go fishing while packing heat, in order to be left alone. I will continue to pick and choose carefully the people I share my fishing adventures with.

I can do without friends like that.

my .02

Yeah it is but that's the way it goes sometimes.

I was driving in to see the movie but instead I pulled the car over and decided to slam my testicles in the car door. Now I feel like a liberal

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124079,00.html

The Truth About 'Fahrenheit 9/11'
Tuesday, June 29, 2004




Michael Moore's (search) "Fahrenheit 9/11" broke records this weekend, becoming the first documentary to debut as Hollywood's top weekend film — but there are holes in the controversial film's story.

For instance, in one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office — but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation.

The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana.

In "Fahrenheit 9/11" (search) Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke (search), he alone approved the Saudi flights.


In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed.

Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company.

Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members — in 1997 and 1998.

Stew

"Most people that bash Moore have never seen any of his work. They take their opinion from what others tell them
I've taken the time to at least read and listen to what the righties have to say before slamming them."

--------------------------------

Excellent Point Stew!

I agree with Michael Moore on one point that Americans are ignorant of things outside our own country. We think the world revolves around the US because it does for the most part. Americans are lazy when it comes to education and would rather sit in front of the tube eating Doritios than doing something of merit. Yet in the work place Americans are number one in productivity.

Michael Moore had a real funny TV show in the 90's called TV nation. I enjoy his sense of humor. He got off the bus with me on Gun control issues and has been diving deeper left recently. He is just like Rush Limbaugh only on the left side not the right. Both are big fat discusting pigs that lie.

This is kinda funny.

A month or two ago, Clarke was the guy the Demos were saying "listen to him" about how inept the Bush administration was at dealing with the terrorist threat. The GOP said "don't listen to him, he's trying to sell books".

Now, Clarke is the guy the GOP is holding up saying "listen to him" about the Saudi flights and the Dems are now silent on the issue.

Makes me wonder who we're supposed to listen to next week.

"Makes me wonder who we're supposed to listen to next week"


That's the whole point and maybe you agree with me on this... It's not which one was rigth or wrong as much as it points out that these guys are less concerned with the facts and more concerned with getting their agenda out.

This doesn't mean we suddenly trust Clarke. I'm sure much of what he said was accurate. But many of us believe he had an agenda and like mooore, probably didn't always tell the whole story or check all his 'facts' carefully...

Dan S

"Clarke is the guy the GOP is holding up saying "listen to him" about the Saudi flights and the Dems are now silent on the issue.
Makes me wonder who we're supposed to listen to next week."


I 'm with you on that. Who are we to listen to?

Don't listen to anyone. it's more fun making it up as you go along. Just like MM does in most of his movies. Listen to some partial quotes editied nicely to make your case and there you go a new reality. One that meets your needs and you have to do very little homework.

TK,

You’re too funny as you undermine your own credibility, should anyone here think you have some. You haven’t seen Farenheit 9/11, but you criticized it on 6/22, prior to its release saying, “If lies and mistated facts can be considered good,” based on what you think and what others speculate, rather than on what you know. Then you posted later that day, “Those unwilling to do the work to reasearch the facts or devlop an informed opinion will love it much like they did Bowling . Moores dilevery is engaging and his storytelling ability is there. Do a little work to peel the layers and you find all the mistakes half truths etc. Most Americans are too lazy and it easy to accept it as fact or out right deny it has any merit.” It looks to me as though you were almost referring to yourself. Go see the movie, and then tell me what you think, instead of what someone else thinks.

I saw the movie last Saturday night. I was impressed. I saw the expected truths and half-truths, but I didn’t detect the outright lies I also expected. It will be interesting to hear what the opposition fact-checkers have to say. Unlike Bowling for Columbine, Moore allegedly put extraordinary effort into checking that this movie is factually correct. That’s not to say he didn’t put any spin on those facts. The film is an incredibly well threaded indictment of President Bush and his family.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo,

Just because something agrees with your view does not make it factual. As your posts show on the Palestinian vs Isreal issues you have a minimalist grasp of the issue's and even less of the facts . The are plenty of challenges of Moores representation of the facts by people that have seen the movie. Just do some searches and you will find them. To call this film a documentary is a joke as Moore himself admits his bias.

Did Moore call it a documentary?