H20. try this book it refutes every crackpot idea theory ever given about gun control.

More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott.

The dog ate his data...

No thanks....but since we are suggesting each other reading material have you looked at 'Imperial Hubris' by Mr. Anonymous, an acknowledged CIA insider and the former top man on Bin Laden?

How about a book of the day forum?

I will check out Imperial Hubris. What I have read so far on it shows it as being a bit short sighted. Given information that keeps pouring out of Russia (who trained Sadams army) that Al Queda had it's operatives working Sadams Iraq hard as it's best sorce for WMD's. It appears they have them in their hands as we speak.

If that's where they went you'd blame clinton.

No . I like Clinton. He agrees with GW for the most part. I think he did what he was capable of Re terrorism given the way he viewed it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stlhdh2o:

" Micheal Moore loves his country, if for no other reason than that he is willing to to challenge its leadership when he disagrees with it, stopping not at words but by taking action"--stlhdh20


How many bong hits did it take to get to the center of that tootsie pop?


Michael Moore doesn't love this country and just want to challenge it's leadership-- He wants to see her fall flat on her face.

How many times do you need to be reminded?--In referring to America he said in his movie The Big One,

"one evil empire down--one to go."--Michael Moore Or sthdh20, do you agree with him that America would be much better served with a Socialist form of government and economic system?


AuntyM has her concerns about Bush's leadership--but she's smart enough to recognize that Moore isn't just anti-Bush, he's anti-American. There's a profound diffrence!

We can all give our opinion of Moore's patriotism, but I haven't heard the ruling of the "Who Loves America and Who Hates It" council yet.

There isn't one? Oh. Never mind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stlhdh2o:


I'm not going to pick your ludicrous statistics apart line by line because 'shooting fish in a barrel' is boring--sthdh20


Please bore us a little about gun statistics--Or like most of those in favor of gun control you don't like to let facts get in your way.

You're really in top form today.

And since you said that you think Michael Moore is a Patriot and GW wipes his butt with the American flag insulting all the brave men that have served this country--How do you feel about John Kerry throwing his medals away and saying publically that his 'brothers in arms were baby killers and rapists?

Where? Inner cities and gang violence is where. Usually where gun control is strongest. i.e. D.C. As far as Moore is concerned, im worried about his health. Speaking of health care....

Nice paraphrase.

The Vietnam war DID turn soldiers into rapists and baby killers, just not all or even the majority of them. My Lai is only the most publicized instance, many veterans have their own personal horror stories.

Just as Abu Ghraib turned ordinary soldiers into torturers.

flip it, strip it, flip it, flop it, drop it, pop it, say whatever you want. Bush was cowering in a frickin backwater united states watering hole when the bullets were flying and the soldiers were dying.

...how do I feel about his tossing the medals? I laud his courage. The medals were awarded to him, they are his to do with what he wishes. I can think of no more powerful symbolic gesture....

The guy won the medals defending his brothers fer crissake...who gives a rats pointed a** what he did with them after that?

The only medal Bush ever wore on his chest was a pledge pin..... legacy, no doubt .

IMO, a man's patriotism isn't defined by how vigorously he falls into lock step with his countries leaders, its the effectiveness with which he expresses his dissension.

When war heros throw their medals in the garbage I consider that a pretty effective delivery of the message.

Your not SUPPOSED to like it. Its SUPPOSED to ruffle Righty's feathers.........

Now go ahead...explain to me how a decorated combat hero is a traitor and a privileged draft dodger is a patriot.

Explain it to my cousin whose Dad was drafted and died during the v war.

If you throw away your medals are you still decorated? My cousin, a decorated Marine, is disgusted by Kerry, politics aside. And by some of these justifications in the name of ideological bull****. "Get in the game you fukin scumbags" D.I. Perry

SCOWAK

Quote; "Please bore us a little about gun statistics"
--------------------------------------
Seems you got that covered very well.

Time to troll that RED Herring in hopes for a take down. :rolleyes: Gun control will not be a major issue in this election. I'm sure a diversion is needed to take the focus alway from what most peoples are concerned with in 2004. Today most voters (see polls) are concerned that the Bush Administration is to risky and careless with the lives of American soldiers and a failed foriegn policy, while generating more hate and terrorists in the process. Guess that's what you get when the leader of the free world, rides in on the back of ENRON and all the other scandalist and corrupted that he represents. Bet those cheated retiree's are doing all they can to get Bush out.

And to think that he (The commander in chief) was AWOL ( facts=F-911 paper trail) when he was active in the Coast Guard, as an enlisted man. I voted for Reagan and GW's father, Bush senior, but I never could get behind this guy. Always seemed unqualified and without the qualities of a true leader. He never will be accused of being a great communicator that's for sure.lol

In the mean time Kerry and McCain were representing themselves with courage and pride during a difficult times of Viet Nam. I am a big fan of John McCani, but he's not on the ballot. The only other real options is Kerry. You see, we independents have choices. We can choose from the best available candidate and not be bound by some cult idea that we have to vote as we are told, along party lines. Looks like this is the Year of the Democrat. If Kerry is elected and screws up, I want hesitate to vote his butt out in a New York second.

my .02

racerdan-

....and goharley is disgusted by Bush and his cowardice, politics aside........ what's yer point? What, you grunts check your disdain for draft dodgers at the door here or what?

Aunty-

I think characterizations like 'trickery' are pretty similar to when elvis or anyone else around here for that matter calls someone else a liar. Its all about how you interpret what you see and hear.

One of the big criticisms I hear about Bowling is that Charlton Hestion never held a gun over his head and said 'from my cold dead hand'.....the point of that edit, or at least my interpretation of the point is that he might as well have...by not having the sensitivity to reschedule gun advocate events in the face of such an enormous tragedy it was equivalent to having done so.

I don't call that dishonest.....anyone even remotely plugged into current events knows that file footage of Heston's.

I knew some (one) would try to defend Heston's 'ethnics' comments by telling everyone how gun violence is a problem of 'the inner city'. ...YOU EVER BEEN TO COLUMBINE? Tell that to that to the dead childrens parents.......

I realize its cold comfort, but lets keep **** in perspective, huh? We need more parachutes, thats where your anger should be directed. Think of all the lives saved. Keep the guns, give out chutes and the deaths drop considerably. Duh. Moore does need to lose a few pounds, or he wont be around for his next umentary or whatever. BTW, numero uno was auto accidents, mainly caused by buffoons that were not paying attention or driving under the influence of alcohol, drugs and shortened attention spans, like placing the DVD in the headrest so johnny will shut up or all the above. Soccer moms that tailgate kill more people than guns. Cant argue with ignorance. :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stlhdh2o:


The Vietnam war DID turn soldiers into rapists and baby killers--sthdh20

I would encourage you to do more than watch an Oliver Stone movie in forming your opinions
about the American men who fought in SE Asia.

------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, a man's patriotism isn't defined by how vigorously he falls into lock step with his countries leaders, its the effectiveness with which he expresses his dissension.--sthdh20

What war or major military conflict in the history of the world was ever won by expressing descension?

------------------------------------------------------------

....how do I feel about his tossing the medals?
I laud his courage. The medals were awarded to him, they are his to with what he wishes. I can think of no more powerful gesture--sthdh20


You do realize that John Kerry has said publicly that the medals he threw weren't his own, but rather the medals earned by others--He changed his story to that version after a focus group suggested throwing his own medals didn't track well with male voters between 18 and 49. Just the kind of man with firmly planted belief system and strongly held convictions this country needs at this critical point in our Nations history. If he's elected President let's just pray that his focus groups are always available to guide him and that the direction they move him- on a givin' day are in this countries best interest.

------------------------------------------------------------

Now go ahead...explain to me how a decorated combat hero is a traitor and a privileged draft dodger is a patriot.--sthdh20


John Kerry did earn some medals in Vietnam during the 4 months that he served over there(most of which he nominated himself for and their validity was questioned by his CO--Including one of his non-combat related boo-boos that required some Bactine spray and a band aid-He asked for and received the Purple Heart.)

In the olden days when I got a boo-boo my Mom would spray Bactine on and put a band aid on it and then just 'kiss it and make it better.

------------------------------------------------------------


Was it Bush you were referring to when you said,"priviledged draft dodger."?

If so please tell me how someone who served honorably in the Air National Guard is a draft doger?

Before you say that the Guard isn't really military service but rather some kind of club med for children of rich parents --Tell that to the thousands of them serving abroad putting themselves in harms way every day--Not to mention the thousands here at home working with homeland security to keep you, me and our loved ones safe.

So AM , you should enjoy the movie

So are all the people who chose not to join the military during the Vietnam war scumbags? I remember a whole lot of good folks who "dodged" the draft during those years and most did not join the National Guard or ROTC or anything else. If I remember right those who were in the military were not looked upon with much respect and were certainly not supported like they are now.

In regards to the president treating our soldiers as just expendable fodder that is pretty far off the mark. Soldiers in war always sacrifice their lives and those who are in the volunteer armed forces today relaize that and knowingly and willingly serve. It sould be argued I suppose that all wars are a waste of good men and women.

If Bush had engaged in civil disobedience to avoid the war and protest its very existence I would have some respect for him. That he allows people in his campaign to attack Kerry's service record in spite of his own personal cowardice is a clear indication of the true nature of this guy's 'character'.

I find it unfathomable that people could find a shred of honor in this disgraceful 'President'.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AuntyM:
[
This situation was well covered during the Republican primary 4 years ago. It's why many of us supported McCain, who could easily have hidden in the guard during Nam, but instead, spent 5 years as a prisoner of war after being shot down.--AuntyM

Who does John McCain feel is best suited to lead our Nation and it's military during these difficult times? Who is he supporting and actively campaigning for in the upcoming election?