After today, Bush will no longer be able to lie about his AWOL service in that dangerous job he shirked in the TANG. The guy who arranged to get him into the TANG even though his score was too low, will go on 60 mins tonight to talk about what he did for the first time in 30 years, at great cost to his reputation and livelihood. They (60mins) will then follow up this story with new info concerning irrefutable documentary evidence that Flightsuit Boy did indeed go AWOL without any repercussions, just as he expects as the rich boy drunk coke head that he is. Info still to come concerns why he failed to show up for his Med exam, and got disqualified from flying without any follow-up investigation to find out why he did so, wasting over 1 million dollars of taxpayer money to train him to wear a flight suit so he could get laid.

I had to laugh when I heard that there's a new "Texans for Truth" group looking into W's NG service. As the saying goes, "What goes around, comes around." Unfortunately, more distractions from real issues.

WHO IS BEN BARNES?
A Deep-Pocketed Kerry Partisan Who Can't Keep His Stories Straight
_________________________________________ __ ___

Barnes Under Oath

Under Oath, Barnes Testified He Had No Contact With Bush Family Concerning National Guard. "Ben Barnes, then the speaker of the Texas House, said in 1999 that Sidney Adger, a Houston businessman and longtime friend of the Bush family whose son also won a slot in the 147th, had asked him to help get Mr. Bush into the Guard. Mr. Barnes, who acknowledged a role only after he was questioned under oath, also said that he had spoken to the head of the Texas Air National Guard on Mr. Bush's behalf, but had no contact with anyone in the Bush family. And there is no direct evidence that Mr. Bush's family pulled strings to get him into the 147th. Mr. Bush is firmly on record denying it, as is the commander of the unit, and there is no paper trail showing any influence by the Bush family." (David Barstow, "In Haze Of Guard Records, A Bit Of Clarity," The New York Times, 2/15/04)

Barnes Said Reports He Helped Bush At His Father's Urging Were "False." "Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes denied a magazine report Thursday that he helped George W. Bush get a place in the Texas Air National Guard at the urging of Bush's father. Bush, the Republican presidential front-runner, has repeatedly denied that he received preferential treatment in being accepted into the Guard during the Vietnam War. … 'I never spoke to Congressman Bush about his son,' Barnes said Thursday. 'The story is false.'" (Renae Merle, "Barnes Denies Report That He Helped Bush Into The National Guard," The Associated Press, 7/15/99)

In Fall Of 1999, Barnes Said Bush Family Never Asked To Get President Bush Into National Guard. "Mr. Bush has consistently said he never requested special treatment, though Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House in 1968, said in 1999 that he had been asked by a Houston businessman -- not by the Bush family -- to recommend Mr. Bush for a pilot's slot, and that he had done so." (David M. Halbfinger, "Three Decades Later, Vietnam Remains A Hot Issue," The New York Times, 8/29/04)

But Now, Barnes' Story "Subject To Change"

Today, Barnes Claims He Is "Ashamed" He Got President Bush Into Texas Air National Guard. "Former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes said he is 'more ashamed at myself than I've ever been' because he helped President Bush and the sons of other wealthy families get into the Texas National Guard so they could avoid serving in Vietnam. 'I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard ... and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it,' Barnes, a Democrat, said in a video clip recorded May 27 before a group of John Kerry supporters in Austin. Barnes, who was House speaker when Bush entered the Guard, later became lieutenant governor." (Bobby Ross Jr., "Former Lawmaker Says He Got Bush Into The Texas Guard," The Associated Press, 8/28/04)

Yet, According To February 2004 New York Times Article, Barnes' Story "Was Subject To Change And There Were No Documents To Support His Claims." "Local reporters could coax one former Democratic state official into admitting, off the record, that he had interceded on Mr. Bush's behalf at the request of either a prominent Dallas businessman or George H. W. Bush, who was then a member of Congress. But the official's story -- the source was later revealed to be former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes -- was subject to change and there were no documents to support his claims." (Mimi Swartz, "In Search Of The President's Missing Years," The New York Times, 2/27/04)

Barnes Is Kerry Fundraiser And Advisor

Ben Barnes Is Kerry Campaign Vice-Chair, Raising Over $100,000 For Campaign. (Kerry For President Website, http://www.johnkerry.com/fec/, Accessed 9/4/04)

Barnes Considers John Kerry Close Personal Friend. "Barnes, a government consultant with offices in Austin, Chicago and Washington, said: 'I'm just an enthusiastic participant' who considers as personal friends Corzine, Daschle and Kerry, whom he got to know during summer vacations in Nantucket." (W. Gardner Selby, "Texas' Last 'Old Lion' Still On Prowl For Funds," San Antonio Express-Texas, 7/30/04)

"Texans For Kerry" Website Links To Barnes Video. (Texans For Kerry Website, http://www.texansforkerry.com/texansforkerry/, Accessed 9/7/04)

Barnes Is Considered "A Definite In" In Kerry Administration. "[Barnes has] known Kerry since the 1980s. 'I don't know who's going to be in and who's going to be out' of a possible Kerry administration, Barnes said. 'But John Kerry has been sympathetic to Texas in the past. ... I would expect him to listen to our problems if he's in the White House.' Barnes is a definite in, though he says he'll keep working as a lobbyist based in Austin." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)

Barnes Owns Home Near Kerry's In Nantucket. "Now a lobbyist and consultant, Barnes has a house near Kerry's in Nantucket, Mass., and committed to Kerry's White House bid nearly three years ago on the grounds of the Nantucket Golf Club." (Jay Root, "Texas Democrats Are Waiting In The Wings," Fort Worth Star Telegram, 7/31/04)

Barnes Is Kerry "Super-Bundler" Fundraiser. "Eleven [Kerry super-bundlers] are from Texas, including Dallas plaintiff's lawyer Fred Baron and lobbyist Ben Barnes, a Lyndon Johnson protégé who served as lieutenant governor and is one of the national Democrat Party's most prodigious fund-raisers. 'If someone had told me last quarter that John Kerry would have raised as much money as he's been able to, I'd have said it couldn't happen. But I'm seeing it happen,' said Mr. Barnes, whose lobby clients have included American Airlines and the chemical giant Huntsman Corp." (Wayne Slater, "Vested Interests In Kerry Lawyers, Lobbyists Top Donors List," Dallas Morning News, 7/26/04)

Opening Night Of Democratic Convention In Boston, "Kerry Adviser And Veteran Political Fund-Raiser"Barnes Hosted Party For Convention-Goers. "On the opening night of the Democratic National Convention, more than 250 well-dressed people strayed from the convention, enjoying bubbly drinks and appetizers such as tablespoon-sized shrimp salads at a party hosted by former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes. Barnes, a Kerry adviser and veteran political fund-raiser, said he scheduled his event to remind potential donors about the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee, which seeks to help Democrats recapture a majority in the U.S. Senate, where the GOP has a two-vote majority." (W. Gardner Selby, "Texas' Last 'Old Lion' Still On Prowl For Funds," San Antonio Express-Texas, 7/30/04)

In October 2003, Barnes Hosted Fundraiser For John Kerry. "Democratic presidential contender John Kerry, counting on the Texas-Massachusetts connection that played better in the 1960s than it did in the 1980s, made three fund-raising stops in Texas on Wednesday as he campaigned toward primary season. Kerry, a senator from Massachusetts, spoke to about 60 supporters at the Four Seasons Hotel here between stops in Dallas and Houston….In introducing Kerry here, former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes likened him to Kennedy. 'He possesses the talent, the courage, the experience and the depth that will make him, as Jack Kennedy was in 1961, a president that has the determination to lead this country,' Barnes said." (Ken Herman, "Kerry Plays Up Texas' Link To His Home State," Austin American-Statesman, 10/2/03)

Barnes Is A Partisan Democrat

Daschle Called Barnes "The Fifty-First Democratic Senator." "Yet here he is in the rarefied atmosphere of big power and big-time politics -- one of the chief financial and strategic architects of the Democratic resurgence to parity (and subsequently control) in the Senate. Majority leader Tom Daschle has called him 'the fifty-first Democratic senator.'" (Paul Burka, "So What If He Never Got To Be Governor Or President?" Texas Monthly, 9/01)

Barnes Attended Clinton Coffee Intended To Raise $500,000. "Newly released White House documents show that President Clinton's political operatives expected to raise $500,000 from a White House coffee for wealthy Texans in the summer, calling into question Clinton's assertion that 'no price tag was placed' on White House events. In a July 14 memo to White House officials, campaign Chairman Peter Knight suggested adding the Texas coffee klatch to Clinton's schedule as part of an effort to raise $7.8 million in the state. Knight predicted that the event would generate $500,000 in political contributions. About 20 Texans, including former Gov. Dolph Briscoe, Land Commissioner Garry Mauro and former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes, attended the Aug. 23 get-together with the president." (Ron Hutcheson, "Clinton's Fund-Raising Assertion Questioned," Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 2/27/97)

In 1996, Barnes Endorsed Clinton/Gore '96. (Lisa R. Davis, "CEOs And Business Leaders Endorse President Clinton," Press Release, 10/8/96)

Ben Barnes Has Donated At Least $380,750 To Democratic Candidates And Campaign Bodies Including:

ü John Kerry For President Inc.

ü Kerry Committee

ü Kerry-Edwards 2004 Inc. General Election Legal And Accounting Compliance Fund

ü A Lot Of People Supporting Tom Daschle Inc.

ü Bob Graham For President Inc.

ü Cantwell 2006

ü Citizens For Biden

ü Citizens For Sarbanes

ü Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee

ü Democratic National Committee

ü Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee

ü Evan Bayh Committee

ü Friends Of Byron Dorgan

ü Friends Of Dick Durbin Committee

ü Friends Of Max Cleland For The US Senate Inc.

ü Friends Of Schumer

ü Friends Of Harry Reid

ü Friends Of Hillary

ü Friends Of Patrick J Kennedy Inc.

ü Friends Of Senator Carl Levin

ü Gephardt For President Inc.

ü Gore 2000 Inc.

ü Hillary Rodham Clinton For US Senate Committee Inc.

ü Joe Lieberman For President Inc.

ü Kennedy For Senate 2006

ü Leahy For U.S. Senator Committee

ü People For Patty Murray US Senate Campaign

ü Stabenow For US Senate

ü Tony Knowles For US Senate (Political Money Line Website, http://www.tray.com, Accessed 9/8/04)

Barnes' Ethical Mishaps

Sharpstown Bank Scandal In 1971 Ended Barnes' Political Career. "The Sharpstown Scandal: This scandal involved quick-profit stock sales for lawmakers and state officials in 1971-72. Houston financier Frank Sharp arranged the stock loans from his Sharpstown State Bank, purportedly to grease the passage of two banking bills. Two dozen former and sitting officials were accused, and others suffered by association. House Speaker Gus Mutscher and another legislator were convicted of conspiring to accept a bribe. Gov. Preston Smith lost the governorship after his profit was disclosed. Half the Texas House was voted out of office or didn't seek re-election. And Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes, a rising political star, was caught in the housecleaning when he tried to win the governor's seat. LBJ had even predicted that Barnes would make it to the White House." (Carolyn Barta, "Texas Has Left A Lasting Mark In The World Of Politics," The Dallas Morning News, 3/4/99)

In 1998, Barnes Was Accused Of Funneling $500,000 To Former Sales Manager Of Corporation Running Texas Lottery. "The former national sales manager for Gtech Holdings Corp., which operates the Texas lottery, was sentenced to 63 months in federal prison Thursday for stealing from the company. …His sentencing two years after his conviction was delayed by a controversy over information released by prosecutors linking him and former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes to a similar kickback scheme. In a sentencing memo in the Smith case, New Jersey prosecutors alleged that Mr. Barnes, then Gtech's chief Texas lobbyist, funneled $500,000 to Mr. Smith. The memo containing the allegations was posted on the Internet. Mr. Barnes denied that he had done anything wrong, and Judge Politan ordered prosecutors to apologize. In August, they acknowledged that they had disclosed secret information. Mr. Barnes said at the time that the money he gave Mr. Smith was for work not connected to the lottery. Mr. Barnes has never been charged with wrongdoing in connection with the allegation. Gtech bought out Mr. Barnes' contract for $23 million after Texas lottery commissioners questioned Gtech business practices." (George Kuempel, "Ex-Official For Gtech Sentenced," The Dallas Morning News, 10/9/98)

Investment Partnership With John Connally Went Bust In 1988 After Connally And Barnes Racked Up $200 Million In Debt. "He joined with his protégé Ben Barnes, the former lieutenant governor of Texas, to embark on the business of building offices and condominiums and shopping malls, borrowing millions of dollars on the strength of his famous name, arguably the most famous in the state. At the time, Connally's real estate and energy investments appeared to be solid. Oil was selling for $33 a barrel and seemed destined to go higher. Texas was on a roll and John Connally was riding the crest of an economic surge that was making millionaires overnight. But Connally's timing was off. The decline of Texas and the rest of the energy belt began in 1982, just about the time he and Barnes began their spending and borrowing spree in earnest, taking the big chances. Files for Bankruptcy. Five years later, after a fruitless struggle for economic survival, Connally admitted that betting big had been a mistake. On July 31 of last year, he filed for bankruptcy. At the time, he and Barnes owed creditors more than $200 million." (J. Michael Kennedy, "Symbol Of Troubled Texas," Los Angeles Times, 1/22/88)

If Ted Bundy says the sky is blue, is it not blue?

Barnes is obviously a slime. It's also obvious that influence was peddled to get GW into the TANG. How else do you leapfrog better-qualified candidates?

And the Kerry/Bush stinkfest continues..........

Who cares. Bush did not make it the cornerstone of his campaign. His actions where like many in TANG after 4 years of service. Tit for tat and a bore.

So? Is not making it a campaign cornerstone a reason to ignore failing to meet his responsibilities......or should those who were leapfrogged not care because Bush didn't mske it a campaign cornerstone?

Gimme a break. You're just ignoring it because it's about YOUR guy.

-----------------------------------------------------------

'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.

The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.

The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.

But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com honed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.

"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."

The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.L.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."

Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.

"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."

He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.

"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"

The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.

"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.

"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."

But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.

"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."

"So? Is not making it a campaign cornerstone a reason to ignore failing to meet his responsibilities"

He did almost 5 years and was honorably discharged. thier is nothing that states he failed to meet his responsiblities. If in fact he did not participate in the Alabama guard unit they did not care and it was common practice. Evidenced by the same situation as Kerry. If you want to hold Bush to that standard there is a simialr 6 year period in Kerrys service before he was discharged. In that period Kerry met with veitnamese leaders making him in violation of the UCMJ and he should be charged with treason. So pick which one you find a more serious issue to question someone character.

It's being reported that the memo is a fake

possible fake?

here we go. :rolleyes:

I think during debates they should play the circus music in the back ground. It would probably be more appropriate there than under a tent with three rings...

PM

I love the spin factor that the two parties throw out can't wait to see this one unfold.

RB
Can't you people see that your Chimperor lied to you, lied about his service. There's
witnesses to vouch that Bush didn't pull his full term.

To bad the wingnuts weren't as scrutinizing of the administration's so-called evidence of Iraq's WMD as they are of 1970's era typewriter fonts and look they got it wrong as always.

In 1941
IBM announces the Electromatic Model 04 electric typewriter, featuring the revolutionary concept of proportional spacing. By assigning varied rather than uniform spacing to different sized characters, the Type 4 recreated the appearance of a printed page, an effect that was further enhanced by a typewriter ribbon innovation that produced clearer, sharper words on the page. The proportional spacing feature became a staple of the IBM Executive series typewriters.

See link to IBM archived timeline
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html

Dumbyas boys can't even get the facts for the cover up right

Is It a Hoax?
Experts weigh in on the 60 Minutes documents. Says one: "I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but . . . I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."
by Stephen F. Hayes
09/09/2004 7:20:00 PM




DOCUMENTS CITED Wednesday by 60 Minutes in a widely-publicized expose of George W. Bush's National Guard Service are very likely forgeries, according to several experts on document authenticity and typography. The documents--four memos from Killian to himself or his files written in 1972 and 1973--appear to indicate that Bush refused or ignored orders to have a physical exam required to continue flying. CBS News anchor Dan Rather reported the segment and sourced the documents this way: "60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file," he said. The 60 Minutes story served as the basis for follow-up news reports for dozens of news organizations across the country. The memos were almost immediately questioned in the blog world, with blog Power Line leading the charge.

And according to several forensic document experts contacted by THE WEEKLY STANDARD say the Killian memos appear to be forgeries. Although it is nearly impossible to establish with certainty the authenticity of documents without a careful examination of the originals, several irregularities in the Killian memos suggest that CBS may have been the victim of a hoax.

"These sure look like forgeries," says William Flynn, a forensic document expert widely considered the nation's top analyst of computer-generated documents. Flynn looked at copies of the documents posted on the CBS News website (here, here, here, and here). Flynn says, "I would say it looks very likely that these documents could not have existed" in the early 1970s, when they were allegedly written.

Several other experts agree. "They look mighty suspicious," says a veteran forensic document expert who asked not to be quoted by name. Richard Polt, a Xavier University philosophy professor who operates a website dedicated to typewriters, says that while he is not an expert on typesetting, the documents "look like typical word-processed documents."

There are several reasons these experts are skeptical of the authenticity of the Killian memos. First the typographic spacing is proportional, as is routine with professional typesetting and computer typography, not monospace, as was common in typewriters in the 1970s. (In proportional type, thin letters like "i" and "l" are spaced closer together than thick letters like "W" and "M". In monospace, all the letter widths are the same.)

Second, the font appears to be identical to the Times New Roman font that is the default typeface in Microsoft Word and other modern word processing programs. According to Flynn, the font is not listed in the Haas Atlas--the definitive encyclopedia of typewriter type fonts.

Third, the apostrophes are curlicues of the sort produced by word processors on personal computers, not the straight vertical hashmarks typical of typewriters. Finally, in some references to Bush's unit--the 111thFighter Interceptor Squadron--the "th" is a superscript in a smaller size than the other type. Again, this is typical (and often done automatically) in modern word processing programs. Although several experts allow that such a rendering might have been theoretically possible in the early 1970s, it would have been highly unlikely. Superscripts produced on typewriters--the numbers preceding footnotes in term papers, for example--were almost always in the same size as the regular type.

So can we say with absolute certainty that the documents were forged? Not yet. Xavier University's Polt, in an email, offers two possible scenarios. "Either these are later transcriptions of earlier documents (which may have been handwritten or typed on a typewriter), or they are crude and amazingly foolish forgeries. I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but I won't let that cloud my objective judgment: I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."

Says Flynn: "This looks pretty much like a hoax at this point in time."

CBS, in a statement Thursday afternoon, said it stands by the story. The network claims that its own document expert concluded the memos were authentic. There are several things CBS could do to clear up any confusion:

(1) Provide the name of the expert who authenticated the documents for Sixty Minutes.

(2) Provide the original documents to outside experts--William Flynn, Gerald Reynolds, and Peter Tytell seem to be the consensus top three in the United States--for further analysis.

(3) Provide more information on the source of the documents.

(A spokeswoman for CBS, Kelly Edwards, said she was overwhelmed with phone calls and did not respond to specific requests for comment.)

Stephen F. Hayes is a staff writer at The Weekly Standard.

False Documentation?
Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service


Sept. 9, 2004 — Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.




Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.

"The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.

Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind."

Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said.

"We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member."

Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television."

Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th."

Experts Question Veracity

Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter.
The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers

The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November.

CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED

**Exclusive**

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

Son of Late Officer Questions Bush Memos

By BOBBY ROSS JR., Associated Press Writer

DALLAS - The authenticity of newly unearthed memos stating that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote the memos.



"I am upset because I think it is a mixture of truth and fiction here," said Gary Killian, son of Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.


Another officer who served with Killian and a document expert also said Thursday the documents appear to be forgeries.


Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said one of the memos, signed by his father, appeared legitimate. But he doubted his father would have written another, unsigned memo that said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.


"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "The only thing that can happen when you keep secret files like that are bad things. ... No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."


News reports have said the memos, first obtained by CBS's "60 Minutes," were found in Jerry Killian's personal records. Gary Killian said his father wasn't in the habit of bringing his work home with him, and that the documents didn't come from the family.


The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.


"They looked to me like forgeries," Rufus Martin said. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years."


CBS stood by its reporting. "As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the '60 Minutes' report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, '60 Minutes' also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."


Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software, which wasn't available when the documents were supposedly written in 1972 and 1973.


Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.


Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.


"I'm virtually certain these were computer-generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.


The White House distributed the four memos after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.


___


Associated Press Writer Matt Kelley in Washington contributed to this report.

RB
Notice how none of your news reports state any facts. The first talked about proportional-spaced fonts and I proved that to be wrong. I am not about to weed through layers of crap postings and try to prove something that is factual or not to you because no amount of debating will change your mind. However notice how none of your post call out any hard data. I mean statements like the following are hard to dispute.


which ones?

Again, then if you cannot dispute them why are you spouting of they are fakes?

That says nothing

Your sources don't say anything...sorry come back with some data and I will blow it out of the water.

Oh and for the record this is my favorite
[QUOTE]Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

Ya a 1941 typewriter is pretty high-end.......
Here's your sign

Oh and for the sake of argument lets say you are correct....just prove it with some hard data.

It's funny how even the DNC says they believe the 60 minutes documents are a fake but LT maintains they're legit.

You should shoot them (DNC) an E-mail--with 'Kerry's Not So Swift Campaign Boat' taking on water fast and about to capsize--I'm sure they could use your help!

All that needs to be looked at in this case is the fact that the white house released the very same documents as soon s they learned that CBS was going with the story. If you think that there is any chance that they are fake and the white house missed it you are living in a dream land, dudes. this is the same hyperventilating done by wingnuts over the Sandy Berger "stuffing secret papers in his pants " story and other phony stories that have and will continue to happen from the right. we watched how they work for 8 years during Clinton. this is so easy to see through and yet uninformed wingnuts have to cling to any shred of innuendo to prop up the flightsuit boy. get a grip, folks...

LT,

Calm down and take a few deep breaths---You're obviously not a dumb guy, but if you've been following the story--the White House re-released documents that were FAXED to them by 60 minutes.

They did this in the interest of full disclosure (having signed Form 180 to release all military records--the same form Kerry refuses to sign).

They (WH) never vouched for their authenticity.

60 Minutes did vouch for their authenticity, and claimed they had a document expert examine them--and rushed this story to air because they wanted so badly to discredit the president. They (60 M) were given these documents we're learning from the DNC.

The DNC is now saying they believe the documents were forged.

Stay tuned.......

RB
I agree with ya on that. Sometimes my attempt at sarcastic humor may come off wrong. I did not mean anything by it and hope you do not take any of my posting personally. When I reply to your posts I generally write them as if I were replying to the entire right

We will both stay tuned

oh one more thing
I find this funny because they already stated they had released ALL records.

Anyway we shall see

WBAP Exclusive
AUDIO - Daughter of Ben Barnes Disputes Father's Claims as Political


The Former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes' recollections over how he helped President Bush get into the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War have evolved over the years from fuzzy to distinct.

Barnes, who once claimed he did not help Bush enter the National Guard, reversed his story and told CBS News 60 Minutes that he in fact did help Bush.

Mr. Barnes daughter called the Mark Davis Show and spoke with Monica Crowley on WBAP September 9th dismissing Barnes' claims as political and opportunistic.

Click here for audio (Windows Media).

Excerpt of Call:

BARNES: I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fund-raiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with. ... He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.

CROWLEY: Did he tell you, Amy – and I'm glad I have you on the line with me – did your father tell you that he was prepared to do this on behalf of John Kerry – go after President Bush like this?

BARNES: He told me he was going to do it. In fact, I talked to him a couple of months ago. He told me he was writing the book. He told me that he was going to be talking about this. And he knows that I – we have very diverse political opinions. He knows my opinions and we get into this debate every time I see him. But, you know, he said that he was going to be talking about it.

CROWLEY: Now you're saying, Amy, that he has had two separate stories on President Bush's Guard duty during the Vietnam era?

BARNES: Yes, yes. This came out in 2000 and I asked him then, at the time, if he [helped get Bush into the Guard]. He said: "No, absolutely not. I did not do that." -

CROWLEY: So, I hate to put you in this position, but I will ask you, do you think your father, Ben Barnes who was on "60 Minutes II" with Dan Rather last night – do you believe that he lied on the air to the American people last night about President Bush?

BARNES; Yes, I do. I absolutely do. And I think he's doing he's doing it for purely political, opportunistic reasons – trying to get John Kerry elected and trying to make Bush look like the bad person. ... Like I said, he's going to be trying to promote his book that he's got coming out.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf

Somehow there's a program out there that can simultaneously apply inky residue to letters like 'e' and 'd' individually, raise and lower individual letters from the baseline and then can as well duplicate the obviously printed elements of the forms - and then get itself turned into a .pdf file.

Ya and the Easter Bunny is real. :rolleyes:


Did you see who the experts where?

Philip Bouffard is the expert who shows up on the Web only in a UFO case and as the writer of a program to compare font faces (not a very well known one, either).
For the main "expert" the Washington Post relied on, William Flynn?

The guy who claimed John Demjanjuk was a victim of Soviet forgery?

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/williamflynn.htm
more on John Demjanjuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

That's quite a roster of "experts." One works for UFO nuts, and one for Nazi war criminals. Why am I not surprised?

LT ,

You OK? Looks like two of your neighbors had a little falling out. :p :p

Sultan man shot in the head during neighbor dispute

By Jennifer Sullivan
Times Snohomish County bureau

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A 41-year-old Sultan man is in satisfactory condition this afternoon at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle after he was shot in the head during a dispute with a neighbor.
Snohomish County sheriff's investigators say the victim's 44-year-old neighbor at a Sultan trailer park shot him during an argument. Both men had been drinking, said sheriff's spokeswoman Jan Jorgensen.

The 44-year-old Sultan man was booked at the Snohomish County Jail on investigation of first-degree assault.

Jorgensen said the victim was "alert and conscious" when deputies arrived at about 12:50 a.m. She said a neighbor called 911 after hearing "screaming" inside the older man's trailer.

It's unclear what the men were arguing over.

Yes King I'm OK

OK that was dang funny on your part

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News


AP
George W. Bush sits in an F-102 fighter jet while he was serving in the Texas Air National Guard. The date of this file photo is unknown.

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AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows.
An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time.

And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.





The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service, and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.


Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company

From ABCnews.com
------------------------------------------------------------

The 60 Minutes Documents:

Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".
CBS responds: ""We believed Col. Hodges the first time we spoke with him. We believe the documents to be genuine. We stand by our story and will continue to report on it."

RB

They are lying again

During the 2000 election season, the Bush campaign claimed that Bush had released all of his
military records. That was false. Early this year, under pressure, the White House released another batch of records, claiming that it had now released all of Mr. Bush's military records. That, too, was false. On Sept 7, 2004 under lawsuit from the AP, the White House released another batch of
documents, claiming once again that all documents had now been released.
On Sept 8, 2004, for reasons not publicly explained, the White House centralized authority over all responses to requests for Mr. Bush's military records. This seemed strange if all the records had already been released.

After the 60 Minutes report, the White House released two of the documents 60 Minutes had
just presented. Were they just copying CBS, or did they have those documents already? And what other documents do they have, or know about, that they're trying to prevent other parts of the government from releasing by centralizing authority to respond to FOIA requests?

LT,

It's been reported in dozens of stories
(print/tv) that the documents that the WH released were the ones FAXED TO THEM BY CBS--if you're going to chime in on the story--try to keep up with all the developements would ya.

Ya ya...I just find it humorous how they keep having to release more information and every time they claim they have released everything. :p

Those Discredited Memos

The "documents" put forward by CBS News about George W. Bush's service have all the earmarks of forgeries. By WILLIAM SAFIRE

Washington - Alert bloggers who knew the difference between the product of old typewriters and new word processors immediately suspected a hoax: the "documents" presented by CBS News suggesting preferential treatment in Lt. George W. Bush's National Guard service have all the earmarks of forgeries.

The copies of copies of copies that formed the basis for the latest charges were supposedly typed by Guard officer Jerry Killian three decades ago and placed in his "personal" file. But it is the default typeface of Microsoft Word, highly unlikely to have been used by that Texas colonel, who died in 1984. His widow says he could hardly type and his son warned CBS that the memos were not real.


Cooperative agreement between SPIEGEL ONLINE and the "New York Times"

SPIEGEL ONLINE and the online version of the "New York Times" offer their readers a new service. Approximately twice a week, you can read selected analyses and commentary from the "New York Times" on SPIEGEL ONLINE. In return, our colleagues in New York will publish selected and translated articles from DER SPIEGEL on their website each week.
When the mainstream press checked the sources mentioned or ignored by "60 Minutes II," the story came apart.

The Los Angeles Times checked with Killian's former commander, the retired Guard general whom a CBS executive had said would be the "trump card" in corroborating its charges. But it turns out CBS had only read Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges the purported memos on the phone, and did not trouble to show them to him. Hodges now says he was "misled" - he thought the memos were handwritten - and believes the machine-produced "documents" to be forgeries. (CBS accuses the officer of changing his story.)

The L.A. Times also checked out a handwriting analyst, Marcel Matley (of Vincent Foster suicide-note fame), who CBS had claimed vouched for the authenticity of four memos. It turns out he vouches for only one signature, and no scribbled initials, and has no opinion about the typography of any of the supposed memos.

The Dallas Morning News looked into the charge in one of the possible forgeries dated Aug. 18, 1973, that a commander of a Texas Air Guard squadron was trying to "sugar coat" Bush's service record. It found that the commander had retired from the Guard 18 months before that.

The Associated Press focused on the suspicion first voiced by a blogger on the Web site Freerepublic.com about modern "superscripts" that include a raised th after a number. CBS, on the defense, claimed that "some models" of typewriters of the 70's could do that trick, and some Texas Air National Guard documents released by the White House included it.

"That superscript, however," countered The A.P., "is in a different typeface than the one used for the CBS memos." It consulted the document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise Valley, Ariz., and reported "she could testify in court that, beyond a reasonable doubt, her opinion was that the memos were written on a computer."

The Washington Post reported Dan Rather's response to questions about the documents' authenticity: "Until someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill" and questioned the critics' "motivation."

After leading with that response, Post media reporter Howard Kurtz noted that the handwriting expert Matley said that CBS had asked him not to give interviews, and that an unidentified CBS staff member who had examined the documents saw potential problems with them: "There's a lot of sentiment that we should do an internal investigation."

Newsweek (which likes the word "discredited") has apparently begun an external investigation: it names "a disgruntled former Guard officer" as a principal source for CBS, noting "he suffered two nervous breakdowns" and "unsuccessfully sued for medical expenses."

It may be that CBS is the victim of a whopping journalistic hoax, besmearing a president to bring him down. What should a responsible news organization do?

To shut up sources and impugn the motives of serious critics - from opinionated bloggers to straight journalists - demeans the Murrow tradition. Nor is any angry demand that others prove them wrong acceptable, especially when no original documents are available to prove anything.

Years ago, Kurdish friends slipped me amateur film taken of Saddam's poison-gas attack that killed thousands in Halabja. I gave it to Dan Rather, who trusted my word on sources. Despite objections from queasy colleagues, he put it on the air.

Hey, Dan: On this, recognize the preponderance of doubt. Call for a panel of old CBS hands and independent editors to re-examine sources and papers. Courage.

ttttt

So far it is all speculation......time will tell

Key Challenges to National Guard Documents Answered: Type Style, Typewriter and Superscript Function All Existed in the Early 1970s, The CBS Evening News Reports Tonight (10)

NEW YORK, Sept. 10 /PRNewswire/ -- The biggest challenges to the
authenticity of the documents featured in the 60 MINUTES segment on President
Bush's Texas National Guard service are answered in a report to be broadcast
on the CBS EVENING NEWS tonight (6:30-7:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television
Network. The report states that the type style, typewriter and the
superscript function critics claim did not exist at the time the memos from
President Bush's former Texas National Guard commander were typed were indeed
all available. In fact, similar raised "th" superscripts have been found on
other National Guard documents the White House has released from the
president's file.
Furthermore, Marcel Mately, the document and handwriting expert used to
authenticate the documents for CBS News and 60 MINUTES, asserts that copies of
the memos critics are examining have been degraded by reproduction though
photocopying, computer scanning and faxing and are not reliable
representations of the memos.

A transcript is attached:

BUSH DOCUMENTS
EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER
9-10-04

Rather Lead In: There were attacks today on the CBS News "60 Minutes"
report this week raising new questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era time
in the Texas Air National Guard. The questions raised by our report include:

-- Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence
with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives .. to get
George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard .. keeping him out
of the draft and any probable service IN Vietnam?

-- Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

-- Was Lieutenant. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?

-- Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered
to take? If not, why not?

-- And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the
Guard?

These questions grew out of new witnesses and new evidence -- including
documents written by Lieutenant Bush's squadron commander.
Today, on the internet and elsewhere, some people -- including many who
are partisan political operatives -- concentrated not on the key questions the
overall story raised but on the documents that were part of the support of the
story.
They alleged the documents are FAKE.

Rather: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE
FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT ... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A
RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S.
BUT SOME MODELS DID ... IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY
OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.
HERE'S ONE ... .. FROM 1968.
SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS
NEW TIMES ROMAN ... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.
BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE ... . SAYS
IT HAS BEEN AVAILABLE SINCE 1931. DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL
MATLEY ANALYZED THE DOCUMENTS FOR CBS NEWS.
HE SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL ... BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT
IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS ... .BECAUSE
DETERIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED ... ..AND THE
DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVE BEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED
AND DOWNLOADED ... . AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH
WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.
DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH US
PRIOR TO THE 60 MINUTES BROADCAST.
HE LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THE SIGNATURES OF COLONEL JERRY KILLIAN ...
COMPARING KNOWN DOCUMENTS WITH THE COLONEL'S SIGNATURE ON THE NEWLY DISCOVERED
ONES.

Matley: "WE LOOK BASICALLY AT WHAT'S CALLED SIGNIFICANT OR INSIGNIFICANT
FEATURES TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S THE SAME PERSON OR NOT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM
IDENTIFYING THEM.
I WOULD SAY BASED ON OUR AVAILABLE HANDWRITING EVIDENCE, YES. THIS IS THE
SAME PERSON."

Rather: MATLEY FINDS THE SIGNAT'URES TO BE SOME OF THE MOST COMPELLING
EVIDENCE ... WE TALKED TO HIM AGAIN TODAY BY SATELLITE.

Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS ...
THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."

Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT
I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."

Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I
KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY
THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES
FROM IT."

Rather: ROBERT STRONG WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER FOR THE TEXAS AIR
NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM YEARS. HE KNEW COL. JERRY KILLIAN, THE MAN
CREDITED WITH WRITING THE DOCUMENTS .... AND PAPER WORK ... LIKE THESE
DOCUMENTS ... WAS HIS SPECIALTY. HE IS STANDING BY HIS JUDGEMENT THAT THE
DOCUMENTS ARE REAL.

Rather: "WHEN YOU READ THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR
MIND THAT THESE ARE GENUINE?"

Strong: "WELL, THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE WAY BUSINESS WAS DONE AT THAT
TIME. THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAN THAT I REMEMBER JERRY KILLIAN BEING. I
DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT'S DISCORDANT WITH WHAT WERE THE
TIMES, WHAT WERE THE SITUATION OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED."

Rather: STRONG SAYS THE HIGHLY CHARGED POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE GUARD
AT THE TIME ... WAS PERFECTLY REPRESENTED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS

Strong: "IT VERGED ON OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN TERMS OF THE FAVORS THAT WERE
DONE, THE POWER THAT WAS TRADED. AND IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. FROM A MORAL AND
ETHICAL STANDPOINT. IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE."

Rather: IT IS THE INFORMATION IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS THAT IS MOST COMPELLING
FOR PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORD IN THE NATIONAL GUARD.
AUTHOR JIM MORE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.

Rather: "YOU'VE STUDIED PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORDS FOR 10 YEARS ... ARE
THESE DOCUMENTS CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW IT?"

Moore: "THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORDS AS I KNOW IT."

Rather: "PUT IT IN CONTEXT AND PERSPECTIVE FOR US ... THE STORY AND WHAT
WE CALL THE COUNTERATTACK ON THE STORY. WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?

Moore "I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS SOME INCRIMINATING DOCUMENTS HAVE COME
OUT. THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU SHOULD REMEMBER, HAS NOT DISCREDITED THE DOCUMENTS.
THEY'RE RELYING ON THE BLOGOSPHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE
WHITE HOUSE PROBABLY KNOWS THESE DOCUMENTS ARE IN FACT REAL."

Rather Tag: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered
documents ... but on a preponderance of evidence ... including documents that
were provided by un-impeachable sources ... and interviews with former
officials of the Texas National Guard. If any definitive evidence to the
contrary of our story is found, we will report it.
So far, there is none.
----------------------------------------------------
For the record I am getting very bored with this issue.

LT,

Reality check

------------------------------------------------------------


Expert Cited by CBS Says He Didn't Authenticate Papers

By Michael Dobbs and Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, September 14, 2004; Page A08

The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

"There's no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them," Marcel Matley said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. The main reason, he said, is that they are "copies" that are "far removed" from the originals.

_____Documents' Differences_____

• Compare: Memo obtained from Pentagon differs from disputed memo obtained by CBS.

____Matley's comments came amid growing evidence challenging the authenticity of the documents aired Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes." The program was part of an investigation asserting that Bush benefited from political favoritism in getting out of commitments to the Texas Air National Guard. On last night's "CBS Evening News," anchor Dan Rather said again that the network "believes the documents are authentic."

A detailed comparison by The Washington Post of memos obtained by CBS News with authenticated documents on Bush's National Guard service reveals dozens of inconsistencies, ranging from conflicting military terminology to different word-processing techniques.

The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

Newcomer drew an analogy with an art expert trying to determine whether a painting of unknown provenance was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci. "If I was looking for a Da Vinci, I would look for characteristic brush strokes," he said. "If I found something that was painted with a modern synthetic brush, I would know that I have a forgery."

Meanwhile, Laura Bush became the first person from the White House to say the documents are likely forgeries. "You know they are probably altered," she told Radio Iowa in Des Moines yesterday. "And they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really."

Citing confidentiality issues, CBS News has declined to reveal the source of the disputed documents -- which have been in the network's possession for more than a month -- or to explain how they came to light after more than three decades. Yesterday, USA Today said that it had independently obtained copies of the documents "from a person with knowledge of Texas Air National Guard operations" who declined to be named "for fear of retaliation."

It was unclear whether the same person supplied the documents to both media outlets. USA Today said it had obtained its copies of the CBS documents Wednesday night "soon after" the "60 Minutes" broadcast, as well as another two purported Killian memos that had not been made public.

A detailed examination of the CBS documents beside authenticated Killian memos and other documents generated by Bush's 147th Fighter Interceptor Group suggests at least three areas of difference that are difficult to reconcile:

• Word-processing techniques. Of more than 100 records made available by the 147th Group and the Texas Air National Guard, none used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. Nor did they use a superscripted "th" in expressions such as "147th Group" and or "111th Fighter Intercept Squadron."

In a CBS News broadcast Friday night rebutting allegations that the documents had been forged, Rather displayed an authenticated Bush document from 1968 that included a small "th" next to the numbers "111" as proof that Guard typewriters were capable of producing superscripts. In fact, say Newcomer and other experts, the document aired by CBS News does not contain a superscript, because the top of the "th" character is at the same level as the rest of the type. Superscripts rise above the level of the type.

• Factual problems. A CBS document purportedly from Killian ordering Bush to report for his annual physical, dated May 4, 1972, gives Bush's address as "5000 Longmont #8, Houston." This address was used for many years by Bush's father, George H.W. Bush. National Guard documents suggest that the younger Bush stopped using that address in 1970 when he moved into an apartment, and did not use it again until late 1973 or 1974, when he moved to Cambridge, Mass., to attend Harvard Business School.

One CBS memo cites pressure allegedly being put on Killian by "Staudt," a reference to Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, one of Bush's early commanders. But the memo is dated Aug. 18, 1973, nearly a year and a half after Staudt retired from the Guard. Questioned about the discrepancy over the weekend, CBS officials said that Staudt was a "mythic figure" in the Guard who exercised influence from behind the scenes even after his retirement.

• Stylistic differences. To outsiders, how an officer wrote his name and rank or referred to his military unit may seem arcane and unimportant. Within the military, however, such details are regulated by rules and tradition, and can be of great significance. The CBS memos contain several stylistic examples at odds with standard Guard procedures, as reflected in authenticated documents.

In memos previously released by the Pentagon or the White House, Killian signed his rank "Lt Col" or "Lt Colonel, TexANG," in a single line after his name without periods. In the CBS memos, the "Lt Colonel" is on the next line, sometimes with a period but without the customary reference to TexANG, for Texas Air National Guard.

An ex-Guard commander, retired Col. Bobby W. Hodges, whom CBS originally cited as a key source in authenticating its documents, pointed to discrepancies in military abbreviations as evidence that the CBS memos are forgeries. The Guard, he said, never used the abbreviation "grp" for "group" or "OETR" for an officer evaluation review, as in the CBS documents. The correct terminology, he said, is "gp" and "OER."

In its broadcast last night, CBS News produced a new expert, Bill Glennon, an information technology consultant. He said that IBM electric typewriters in use in 1972 could produce superscripts and proportional spacing similar to those used in the disputed documents.

Any argument to the contrary is "an out-and-out lie," Glennon said in a telephone interview. But Glennon said he is not a document expert, could not vouch for the memos' authenticity and only examined them online because CBS did not give him copies when asked to visit the network's offices.

Thomas Phinney, program manager for fonts for the Adobe company in Seattle, which helped to develop the modern Times New Roman font, disputed Glennon's statement to CBS. He said "fairly extensive testing" had convinced him that the fonts and formatting used in the CBS documents could not have been produced by the most sophisticated IBM typewriters in use in 1972, including the Selectric and the Executive. He said the two systems used fonts of different widths.

On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said "60 Minutes" had done a "content analysis" of the memos and found, for example, that the date that Bush was suspended from flying -- Aug. 1, 1972 -- matched information in the documents. He also noted that USA Today had separately obtained another memo from 1972 in which Killian asked to be updated on Bush's flight certification status.

CBS executives have pointed to Matley as their lead expert on whether the memos are genuine, and included him in a "CBS Evening News" defense of the story Friday. Matley said he spent five to eight hours examining the memos. "I knew I could not prove them authentic just from my expertise," he said. "I can't say either way from my expertise, the narrow, narrow little field of my expertise."

In looking at the photocopies, he said, "I really felt we could not definitively say which font this is." But, he said, "I didn't see anything that would definitively tell me these are not authentic."

Asked about Matley's comments, CBS spokeswoman Sandy Genelius said: "In the end, the gist is that it's inconclusive. People are coming down on both sides, which is to be expected when you're dealing with copies of documents."

Questions about the CBS documents have grown to the point that they overshadow the allegations of favorable treatment toward Bush.

Prominent conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh are insisting the documents are forged. New York Times columnist William Safire said yesterday that CBS should agree to an independent investigation. Brent Bozell, president of the Media Research Center, called on the network to apologize, saying: "The CBS story is a hoax and a fraud, and a cheap and sloppy one at that. It boggles the mind that Dan Rather and CBS continue to defend it."

So both sides spin the story to benefit themselves

This would be nice

Casting Further Doubt
Document Analysts: CBS News Ignored Concerns About Disputed Bush Military Records
By Brian Ross and Howard Rosenberg
ABCNEWS.com
Sept. 14, 2004— Two of the document experts hired by CBS News say the network ignored concerns they raised prior to the broadcast of a report citing documents that questioned George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.


The authenticity of the documents in the report by CBS News' 60 Minutes II has been widely questioned. The documents were allegedly written by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.
Emily Will, a veteran document examiner from North Carolina, told ABC News she saw problems right away with the one document CBS hired her to check the weekend before the broadcast.

"I found five significant differences in the questioned handwriting, and I found problems with the printing itself as to whether it could have been produced by a typewriter," she said.

Will says she sent the CBS producer an e-mail message about her concerns and strongly urged the network the night before the broadcast not to use the documents.

"I told them that all the questions I was asking them on Tuesday night, they were going to be asked by hundreds of other document examiners on Thursday if they ran that story," Will said.

But the documents became a key part of the 60 Minutes II broadcast questioning President Bush's National Guard service in 1972. CBS made no mention that any expert disputed the authenticity.

"I did not feel that they wanted to investigate it very deeply," Will told ABC News.

"I Did Not Authenticate Anything'

A second document examiner hired by CBS News, Linda James of Plano, Texas, also told ABC News she had concerns about the documents and could not authenticate them. She said she expressed her concerns to CBS before the 60 Minutes II broadcast.

"I did not authenticate anything and I don't want it to be misunderstood that I did," James said. "And that's why I have come forth to talk about it because I don't want anybody to think I did authenticate these documents."

A third examiner hired by CBS for its story, Marcel Matley, appeared on CBS Evening News last Friday and was described as saying the document was real.

According to The Washington Post, Matley said he examined only the signature attributed to Killian and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

At the heart of the dispute is whether any typewriter existed in 1972 that could have produced the documents, with their distinct type style, even spacing, and the tiny raised "th" known as superscript.

Two experts told ABC News today there was no such machine, not even the IBM Selectric Composer, the most advanced typewriter available in 1972.

"This machine is not the culprit for these documents," said software engineer Gerry Kaplan.

Other new questions were raised today by National Guard officials who told ABC News that some of the language and abbreviations in the documents were not in use at the time.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The growing controversy over President Bush's National Guard records, and whether some of the memos aired on CBS were fake, took another turn Wednesday night.

CBS News reported that the documents it first broadcast last week on "60 Minutes II" appear to be forgeries to the woman who would have typed the original memos in 1972 and 1973.


Could this be another nail in the sKerry presidential campaign coffin?

Guess that solves it. They're correct. Thanks AM. The issue is solved...
Facts? We don't need facts, we got money..

Killian's wife "just can't believe these are his words" and says he'd "be turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman." In fact, she says that her husband thought Bush "was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the guard and was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th". She also says her husband didn't type.

Killian's daughter says that her father "admired George Bush and was proud of the fact that he pinned his [flying] wings on him."

So whom do we believe, Killian's secretary or his family? Why is CBS afraid to disclose where they came from? Until CBS coughs up the source of the documents, I think I would have to side with his wife over his secretary.

Thanks for the laugh!

Detracts the pain from my neck...

From the AP:

Interesting. I wonder what Barton knows that he doesn't want everyone else knowing?

I think bouncing around in a boat 12hrs a day for three days in a row had something to do with it I think the epidemic is called Coho fever!?

I dunno AM, them river banks are really muddy right now. PM could slip and fall on his ass, then his lower back would REALLY hurt!

You can't be serious with that question. Who'd be more familiar with Killian's job than his secretary? Only Killian himself.

Are you calling Ms. Carr-Knox a liar?

Rather asked her what she thought about Killian's son disputing the memos. She said he'd have no way of knowing....he wasn't there, and she was.

I'll take the word of someone who was there, before I'd take the word of someone who wasn't. But that's just my opinion.

I can't say that I'd be surprised if the son of a wealthy man somehow leaped up front to get into the TANG. Seems to me it's been that way for a long time. President Bush himself says that Kerry's service was "more honorable".

That having been said, President Bush isn't running on his VietNam experience. He'll still get my vote, because I still haven't heard much I like from Kerry on how he'd lead the nation....

I would not take the word of anyone I did not know personally in such a situation. What was the response of your teacher 34 years ago when you turned in your homework in the 5th grade? did she think you where a good kid ,a bad kid , what did she think? She spent 30 hours a week with you for 9 months I doubt that she could even recall you and if she could it would be with rose colored memories that where an amalgam of all her students.

Don't have much of the back side left after I told my wife that as of about 14:30 tomorrow she wont see me till Sunday evening. Think she'd be happy?? I'll be out along with about 4,000 of my closest fishing buds this weekend... She'll get to see me for a brief moment when she drops our daughter off for the afternoon bite.

We'll, now it's looking like Rather is having his own doubts. I wonder how much pressure it took for him to have those doubts though?

post

I once stated that I would like an independent investigation of this matter to resolve it. I now relinquish that statement. To have a congressional investigation would not be a good thing. Why the rush for an investigation of this and no congressional investigation of any number of other much more important issues that would make repubs look bad. All an investigation of this would do is to keep the republican agenda in the news for as long as they wish to distract people from the content of the memo's which is the really important issue. They want to make it look like the dems are responsible for the phony documents, if they are in fact phony.

This is better done by the press and the public, IMHO. I think that way; the issues aren't going to be dictated by a set agenda. The focus will drift all over the place and finally land with what resonates most with the public. This could be construed as a ploy to keep the bad press with Bush and the Republican slander is off of Kerry. See what the current administration has taught me

------------------------------------------------------------

WOW Dan S,

For someone who's normally 'fair and balanced'--you really 'jumped the shark' on that one.

Look into it for yourself--Killian's son WAS there--he was in the 'Guard and stationed on the same base that Bush 43 was during the period in question.

------------------------------------------------------------

Pmartin,

Are you heading to Grays Harbor? If so what side?

I'll be in 8-2 and 9 for the Everett Coho derby..

Good luck PM

I bet the winning fish goes 18lb plus they are big fish this year :p

And he knows better what was going on in Killian's office than Killian's secretary?

Not buying it............

If Killians Secretary knew morethan Killians family then how do you explain the performance evaluations that are signed by Killian himself??

"A 1971 evaluation said Bush had the potential to "promote well ahead of his contemporaries" and added, "Lt. Bush's main strengths are his eagerness to participate in the unit's activities and his ability to work harmoniously with others." A 1970 letter recommending him for a promotion from second to first lieutenant called him "a dynamic outstanding young officer."

"Lt. Bush is possessed of sound judgment, yet is a tenacious competitor and an aggressive pilot," said the letter from Jerry Killian, then a lieutenant colonel in the Texas Air National Guard. "He is mature beyond his age and experience level."

"I read and helped write more than enough evals over the years"

As a wife\family member or as a secretary??


As for his secretary, anyone have a link to the interview she did where she claimed not to have any personal knowlege of GWs guard performance? Then suddenly when the time was right (or the money? or?) her 86yr old memory becomes crystal clear...

AM,
For the most part you are right, there is a lot of meaningless crap in there that tells you nothing about the individuals performance, that I feel is a waste of ink in any FITREP / EVAL, but.......
If you know anything about military selection boards, a statement from a commanding officer that says to promote well ahead of his contemporaries, is a very important statement in a military evaluation and very valuable at a selection board.

You are correct AM, I will not say that I will always vote for a Republican ( were there ever a Dem that I truely felt would be a better choice I would definately vote for him), but I will ALWAYS (and proudly) be a Navy Chief! And if Killian did lose his faith in GWB's performance, I feel confident that as a Commanding Officer he would have provided some sort of correspondance/documentation up the chain of command that was a bit more official than just telling his secretary. I doubt if she would have had much input on the LT's career progression. So if that is the case, where is the poor performance evaluation from Killian?

UM,

Dan Rather will produce a fax of the Poor Performance Eval shortly.........


Sorry, couldn't help myslef.

:D

Good one, Dan!

AM

Have you ever got that right here's a fine example of what you're talking about:

Here is a link to an interesting read: Rathergate

She is on the record saying that Bush wasn't elected and stole the election. This is before any of this memo bs came up. Credability? Agenda? Nah... But a good try.

I just got done flipping through the news channels while tying up leaders and every news channel had something to say about this. To me it seemed mostly like sharks smelling blood. The blood bing CBS. They have their agend too. That being watching the ship go down and having a slot to move into. Both sides really have to be loving this. Don't have to spend a cent and yet the majority of the american public onces again don't have to listen to issues that will affect you and I. Go press go.

Ouch there goes that twing again.. I think this will help

Some would say that serving in Vietnam was no badge of honor. Bush was a fortunate son...big friggin deal ..good for him. He was an officer who flew jets....does that make him a dick head? Kerry was antiwar and went to war for 4 months. Came back and trashed the war some more and his fellow vietnam vets. Does that make him honorable?

In both cases...who cares?>

Not at all. There were lots of fotunate sons out there that were lucky enough not to be shipped overseas. The rub comes from his apparent failure to fulfill his NG duties.

Marion Carr Knox said that Bush was given a direct order to submit to a flight physical, and failed to do so.

I don't put much weight behind this either. I'd like to see a some debates about the NEXT 4 years. Enough of this 30-year-old history, let's get with the hree and now.

Yep, the race is close now.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/default.aspx?ci=13066

September 17, 2004
Bush Bounce Keeps On Going
President leads Kerry by 13 points among likely voters; 8 points among registered voters

by David W. Moore

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- In a new Gallup Poll, conducted Sept. 13-15, President George W. Bush leads Democratic candidate John Kerry by 55% to 42% among likely voters, and by 52% to 44% among registered voters. These figures represent a significant improvement for Bush since just before the beginning of the Republican National Convention.

In the immediate aftermath of that convention, a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll showed Bush receiving a modest bounce from his standing before the convention. Among likely voters, Bush's support was up two points and Kerry's was down two points. Among the larger sample of registered voters, Bush's support was up two points, while Kerry's was unchanged.

No agenda for the memos. probable leak

Just like grandma being unbiased in her comments.. :rolleyes:


I am hearing that there was a new memo that was to be put out that stated JK was a legit war hero. No news station want to touch that though.. No fact to back it up :p

Here is an interesting litle article released today:

Friday, Sept. 17, 2004 12:38 a.m. EDT
Forgery 'Source' at Democratic Party Huddle

The Texas man who was named on Thursday as the source of forged documents aired by disgraced newsman Dan Rather accepted an invitation to address a local Democratic Party gathering earlier this year - and is a regular poster to pro-Democrat Web sites.

Retired National Guard Lt. Bill Burkett is viewed as "an intelligent activist or statesman of sorts" by local Democratic Party officials, reports Friday's Washington Post.

Why does this not surprise me? Know I am not implying in any way that the Kerry team had any knowledge or input on this issue, but does the fact that the "alledgedly" forged documents came from a pro-democrat activist kind of shed a cloud over this whole issue and could possibly wind up hurting the Kerry campaign in the long run? I think we will see Mr. Rather retract this story very soon now.

Never though about there being a tie and don't really care. The point is that is a news org like CBS is putting any kind of crap that THEY dictate to the American pub as fact what road are we traveling down? Might as well have the the National Enquirer Channel. Don't you think that a News org should hold some type of responsibility to what is broadcast as news and fact? To be honest I really hope that Dan Rather gets fired over this as an example. That guy must really think that he can spew any BULLSH!T he wants and that he is above everyone else. How many other "facts" has he put out as news that were lies? How many other lives has he ruined without any recourse? The only reason this story had any traction is due to the election year politics. Since this has happened with such a major org and by such a legend how often will you sit around asking yourself if this is news or is this being reported for some agenda?

Dan S

I am tired of arguing this point with the righties but this is for you in regards to the quote below. You are a middle of the row guy so you can make up your own mind. I didn't know if you knew this was a fact for sure and am just pointing ya towards the documents and you can decide on your own.

Link to actual document that shows Bush was ordered to report
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

Link to actual document that shows Bush failed to report
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

Do you really for one second think those are real?
When I first saw those I was surprised that anyone thought there was a possibility of them being real in the first place. LT, Have you seen the latest news about the guy in Texas?

BTW, The only fact is that they are fake! Just cause someone writes something down doesn't make it real. Maybe I should run off a bunch of $20's on the copy machine. They kind of look real so they must be right? I'll sell em to ya for ten buck's each

If you beleive Dan Blather you'll believe this:

Here LT. I just did this on word with the default times roman text. Go photo copy this a couple of times and see what you get.


Heck, do it for yourself and pass it to all of your lib friends and you can say you have a man on the inside who gave you a copy. They should beleive it if they beleive the other?

Yes, but I admit there is so much mud being slung I would not bet my check on it.

This is true but nothing tells me they are fakes as of yet.

Have not seen Texas news....inform please

Act
Go away :rolleyes:

Nope having to much fun pulling your and the other Bush Hater's chains.

As a conservatively leaning moderate registered Democrat I find that the DNC and WA State Democratic Committee's have completely abandoned the citizens of this state and repersent nothing but the views of the I-5 Corridor and to hell with the rest of the State and as a result of their total mismanagement of the public trust at all levels of Government from the building of Marble Palaces for DNR, DSHS, Dept of Licensing and other agencies to the hiring of total idiots, who haven't a clue as to what their job is or how to impliment that job and once they are on the job you can't fire them because the Union won't let you fire them, so the state moves them up the ladder to a job of greater responsibility. That's the Democrapic way.

The DNC and the Democratic Party needs to sh!tcan the sKerry's, Kennedy's , Shulmer's, Hildabeast's, Lowry's, McDermott's and the others who are leading their party down Leftist Path and bring their philosophy back towards a more centerist path and then and only then will they start to regain some of the Credibility that they have lost or the Democratic Party will become nothing more than a footnote in history.

Russia and the rest of the Communist Block Nations went down that same path to their own demise.

Word up to that. I couldn't agree more.

Ya can't pull my chain by posting pics, only by posts like your last one. Keep it up

You're right, but at the same time we need to get rid of the DeLays, Frists, Hatches, Inhofes, Bushes, Lotts, Cheneys, Santorums, and Roberts. They're leading their party, and this nation, to the far radical right, and they need to steer us back to middle where mainstream America is more comfortable.

If for no other reason, we need the guys on the far left to balance those on the radical right.

EXCLUSIVE // Mon Sep 20 2004 11:58:02 ET
STATEMENT FROM DAN RATHER:

Last week, amid increasing questions about the authenticity of documents used in support of a 60 MINUTES WEDNESDAY story about President Bush's time in the Texas Air National Guard, CBS News vowed to re-examine the documents in question—and their source—vigorously. And we promised that we would let the American public know what this examination turned up, whatever the outcome.

Now, after extensive additional interviews, I no longer have the confidence in these documents that would allow us to continue vouching for them journalistically. I find we have been misled on the key question of how our source for the documents came into possession of these papers. That, combined with some of the questions that have been raised in public and in the press, leads me to a point where—if I knew then what I know now—I would not have gone ahead with the story as it was aired, and I certainly would not have used the documents in question.

But we did use the documents. We made a mistake in judgment, and for that I am sorry. It was an error that was made, however, in good faith and in the spirit of trying to carry on a CBS News tradition of investigative reporting without fear or favoritism.

Please know that nothing is more important to us than people's trust in our ability and our commitment to report fairly and truthfully.

CBS DOC SOURCE SET TO SUE NETWORK FOR LIBEL
Wed Sep 22 2004 00:05:20 ET

Bill Burkett, the man identified yesterday by CBS as the source of the controversial documents used in its September 8 “60 Minutes II” report questioning President Bush's Air National Guard service, plans to sue the network, the NY SUN reports.

Burkett has had “several meetings with lawyers to determine the best course of action.” The planned lawsuit would center on “defamation of character and libel.”

Mr. Burkett “told me everything about the process” of his dealings with CBS and how he came into possession of the documents at the heart of the controversy, a lawyer close to Burkett said.

The lawyer said the CBS News producer, Mary Mapes, promised to protect Mr. Burkett with complete anonymity and CBS was to “expend both time and money authenticating” the memos.

“Bill Burkett went with CBS News on this over ABC News, the New York Times, and the Washington Post because they promised to work the hardest to protect him and authenticate the documents. ,” Mr.Van Os told the Sun. “Bill leveled with [CBS] about his doubts over the papers, and they promised him they would take their time. They spent all of three days, maybe less, on authentication.”

Developing...

CBS Producer on Thin Ice After Guard Story


Sep 21, 8:30 PM (ET)

By DAVID BAUDER

(NEW YORK (AP) - The fallout from CBS's doomed story about President Bush's National Guard service most endangers a woman few viewers know but who played a key role in two of the biggest television stories of the year.

Mary Mapes, a veteran producer at CBS News, reported most of the National Guard story, including obtaining the documents CBS now says it can't authenticate. She also passed on the phone number of her source, former Texas National Guard officer Bill Burkett, to the Kerry campaign.

Mapes, 48, was described by colleagues on Tuesday as a dogged and talented journalist who made no secret of her liberal political beliefs.

She's only a few months removed from a career-defining highlight. Mapes took a story that had received little attention - the abuse of prisoners by American soldiers in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison - and unearthed the photos that gave the story its visceral impact.

"She pursued stories very aggressively always," said Jeff ***er, executive producer of "60 Minutes.""She definitely has an investigative sense. She was responsible for the bulk of the work on Abu Ghraib. That was her story."

The Dallas-based producer, who declined through a spokeswoman to talk with The Associated Press, also landed the first TV interviews with Strom Thurmond's biracial daughter and Hillary Rodham Clinton after her husband's impeachment. Mapes was almost jailed in 1999 for refusing a judge's order to turn over a videotape of Dan Rather's interview with a white man convicted of killing a black man by dragging him behind a pickup truck.

She worked at Seattle's KIRO-TV before coming to CBS in 1989. In the "60 Minutes" tradition, producers like Mapes wield tremendous influence on the stories and operate with a great deal of independence - a status earned after many years of proving themselves, ***er said.

John Carlson, a former commentator at KIRO-TV who is host of a conservative radio talk show in Seattle, remembers Mapes as a talented producer with whom he often argued politics in the newsroom.

Mapes was "quite liberal" and disliked the current President Bush's father, he said.

"She definitely was someone who was motivated by what she cared about and definitely went into journalism to make a difference," Carlson said. "She's not the sort of person who went into journalism to report the news and offer an array of commentary."

Carlson spoke with Mapes about the National Guard story a week ago, and said that he believes she "put so much time into it that she wanted something to come of it."

"This was a woman with a good reputation," he said. "The mistakes she made were so obvious. This was a story that was rushed because they clearly believed it was true. They wanted it to be true."

Rather acknowledged Monday that Burkett didn't come to CBS. The network approached him about the documents, knowing he had been trying for several years to discredit President Bush's military service record, he said.

In a USA Today story, Burkett said he agreed to turn documents impugning Bush's service - widely considered now to be fake - over to CBS on the condition CBS would help arrange a conversation with the Kerry campaign. Burkett's lawyer, Gabe Quintanilla, said he could not immediately confirm that Tuesday.

CBS acknowledged Mapes passed on Burkett's number to Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart, and Lockhart called him. Spokeswoman Kelli Edwards said CBS wasn't aware that this was part of any deal, but it's one of the things that will be examined by an independent commission CBS will soon appoint to look into the incident.

"It is obviously against CBS News standards and those of every other reputable news organization to be associated with any political agenda," Edwards said.

It had to be tempting: get key documents you've long been seeking to nail down a story, and all you had to do was set up a phone call.

Still, it's a lapse in journalistic ethics if true, said Marvin Kalb, senior fellow at Harvard University's Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy.

"Journalists do all kinds of odd things these days to get a news story," Kalb said, "but one of the things they should not be doing is paying the price of a political contact."

It's particularly damaging when news coverage is being scrutinized by both sides of a bitter political divide, said Frank Sesno, former CNN Washington bureau chief and professor at George Mason University. Even before this story, Rather and CBS News were targets of groups concerned about an anti-Republican bias in the media.

The Lockhart contact "is going to cast more doubt on not just the practices, but the motives behind the story," Sesno said.

"She's done many, many solid stories in her career," ***er said. "How this went so horribly wrong is a mystery to many of us and I look forward to hearing the details."

This issue is not settled as Dan Rather has only admitted that the documents could not be verified, a bit different from admitting they are forged. I welcome a full independent investigation of the entire affair including the undisputed fact that the content of the documents is true. Let the facts be revealed and you all should be careful not to be crowing too loud until you are sure you aren't being spun by your hope of redemption for Chimpy Smirkster.

To live in a world of speculation and conjecture must be an interesting world LT. Kind of like Fantasy Island I suppose? But, MMoore like the world of the DNC.... Facts? We don't need facts we got imagination.

I guess if you say a lie enough people will start to believe it.

PMartin - Like, Iraq is an imminent threat against the US?????

Didn't a non-partasin already cover this? I guess you'd have to ask your man Kerry the same question...He voted for the same thing. He had the same info as everyone else..

You mean like the lie of WMD, which got us into this war and was proven to be a farce last week.

Hey all I was saying is he has not been proven anything yet little lone a lire.

The righties were wrong about WMD and they could be wrong about this.

LT was already right on WMD and is batting 100% so watch out he is on a role. Maybe LT should go look up who was so adamant there where WMD and see who was wrong.

Like Clinton and just about everyone else in the UN saying there were WMD's??? Maybe you could have told them years ago????

This conversation has nothing to do with Clinton, what Clinton believed was based on old information from 1991-1992.

Bush kicked the weapons inspectors out even though they were being given complete access. The only reason the rest of the world thought there were WMD is because Bush told them there were.


By the way you have convinced me not to vote for Clinton again :p

The whole world said that there where WMD in Iraq. What they did with them is worse than not finding them. If you want to hold GW to the WMD issue you them have to hold Kerry and 95% of congress and the rest of the NATO countries to the same standard. they all agreed based off the same evidence.

Based from Bush's account of the situation :p

This reply requires no response and is down right laughable. Pure speculation on your part

The buck stops with Bush as he presented the information to them :p

LT. Here is a little education for you. I guess this would be breaking news for you also. You only see what you want to.

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

PM

If you will notice, all the intelligence referenced by everyone in your post is from 10 or more years before the Iraq war. The UN had authorized the weapons inspectors in 2001, they were busy doing their jobs, and Bush told them to leave because he was preparing to attack, ready or not. Since then, all evidence says the inspections and sanctions were working, Saddam was not a threat. Bush went to war with Iraq against UN authorization in a rush to put our country at risk, against the opinion of the entire world. If that is the kind of judgment that you think makes us safer, then go ahead and support the Bush administration.

What are you smoking? I am going to assume you didn't even read the post or you are real terrible at math... Then again you are in the union right :p

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I'll second that--WOW!

LT,

There are so many holes in your logic (or lack there of) and the statements you purport to be facts--I have to ask if you did read all the posts above-- Are you on any 'special' medication we should know about?

LT,

The whole world believed it prior to Bush making the case. What they disagreed on was "Imminent threat" only.

The dates of your quotes may not be ten years old but they were based on very old intelligence.

And yes I read your post

We could argue this all day and still be in the same place so I am done. This article I will cut and paste sums up how I feel on this issue.


The war, illegal and founded on a vast lie, has produced two tragedies of equal magnitude: an embryonic civil war in the world's oldest country, and a triumph for those in the Bush administration who, without a trace of shame, act as if the truth does not matter. Lying until the lie became true, the administration pursued a course of action that guaranteed large sections of Iraq would become havens for jihadis and radical Islamists. That is the logic promoted by people who take for themselves divine infallibility -- a righteousness that blinds and destroys. Like credulous Weimar Germans who were so delighted by rigged wrestling matches, millions of Americans have accepted Bush's assertions that the war in Iraq has made the United States and the rest of the world a safer place to live. Of course, this is false.

But it is a useful fiction because it is a happy one. All we need to know, according to the administration, is that America is a good country, full of good people and therefore cannot make bloody mistakes when it comes to its own security. The bitter consequence of succumbing to such happy talk is that the government of the most powerful nation in the world now operates unchecked and unmoored from reality; leaving us teetering on the brink of another presidential term where abuse of authority has been recast as virtue.

The logic the administration uses to promote its actions -- preemptive war, indefinite detention, torture of prisoners, the abandonment of the Geneva Convention abroad and the Bill of Rights at home -- is simple, faith-based and therefore empty of reason. The worsening war is the creation of the Bush administration, which is simultaneously holding Americans and Iraqis hostage to a bloody conflict that cannot be won, only stalemated.

Over the last three years, practicing a philosophy of deliberate deception, fear-mongering and abuse of authority, the Bush administration has done more to undermine the republic of Lincoln and Jefferson than the cells of al-Qaida. It has willfully ignored our fundamental laws and squandered the nation's wealth in bloody, open-ended pursuits. Corporations like Halliburton, with close ties to government officials, are profiting greatly from the war while thousands of American soldiers undertake the dangerous work of patrolling the streets of Iraqi cities. We have arrived at a moment of national crisis.

At home, the United States, under the Bush administration, is rapidly drifting toward a security state whose principal currency is fear. Abroad, it has used fear to justify the invasion of Iraq -- fear of weapons of mass destruction, of terrorist attacks, of Iraq itself. The administration, under false premises, invaded a country that it barely understood. We entered a country in shambles, a population divided against itself. The U.S. invasion was a catalyst of violence and religious hatred, and the continuing presence of American troops has only made matters worse. Iraq today bears no resemblance to the president's vision of a fledgling democracy. On its way to national elections in January, Iraq has already slipped into chaos.

Ok Rory & PMartin - so, where are the WMD's??? Enquiring minds want to know...

There was lots of tough rhetoric and assumptions about WMD on both sides towards Saddham, to keep our eye on the ball, as there should have been. But when your weapons inspectors can't find anything and you don't have concrete intelligence demonstrating that it is being stockpiled, why loosten the noose in Afganistan and start this grand, expensive neocon experiment....??? We'll see if Mr Bush has had enough time to figure out his real position by now and finally explain this during the debates.

Jeff'ed,

The debates are so controled you will hear nothing new. Kerry cannot go there because he saw the same things and voted soley based on WMD. If he does GW will wear him out like the old french Whore he is.

Ah heck King you would be hard pressed to find anyone GW could wear out in a debate

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Only time will tell......smart money says Syria, Iran, deep below terra firma or all of the above. He had more than ample time to hide them (WMD'S) while we played footsie with the UN.

One thing I do believe is that with all the independant and objective sources from around the world suggesting that Saddam had WMD's--they didn't just vanish into thin air. If he had destroyed them he would have documented it and made the evidence public so as to save himself and his regime from a US led invasion.

With regards to seeking UN resolutions for several months prior to the invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam and his regime from power--I once posed a hypothetical question to another PP board member:

If when you were in High School your mother told you she was going to come into your bedroom in six months and search every square inch of it and announce her findings to the entire world---Would you leave anything lying around that would incriminate yourself or cause embarrassment?

The debates ought to be interesting considering that Kerry has both agreed and disagreed with everything bush has done...

They should just make them both sing "this land is my land"

CONTROVERSIAL TEXAS RANCHER SAYS LOCKHART WANTED DOCUMENTS

// The source of a disputed CBSNEWS report claimed Thursday that Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart tried to "convince me as to why I should give them the documents." Texas Army National Guard Lt. Col. Bill Burkett tells the FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM that he has suffered four seizures since being identified as CBS' source and dogged by the media... Developing

Man who swore Bush into Air Guard speaks out
2004-09-24
by Lance Coleman
of The Daily Times Staff

Ed Morrisey Jr. has his opinion about rumors President Bush received preferential treatment when he was allowed into the Texas Air National Guard in the late 1960s.

The Blount Countian also has firsthand knowledge.

The 75-year-old Jackson Hills resident is a retired colonel with Texas Air National Guard. He swore Lt. George W. Bush into the service in May 1968.

On Thursday, Morrisey said the argument that Bush got off easy by being in the National Guard doesn't take into consideration the context of the 1960s.

``Bush and the others were flying several flights day or night over the Gulf of Mexico to identify the unknown,'' he said. ``The Cold War was a nervous time. You never knew. There were other things going on equally important to the country, and the Air National Guard had a primary role in it.''

Morrisey said the commander he worked for at the unit in Texas was sent there to rebuild the image of the unit. There were only two to four pilot training slots given to them per year, he said. Individuals questioned by an evaluation board and then chosen by the commander had to be the best.

``Bush was selected and he turned out just fine,'' he said.

According to Morrisey, after Bush began working as a fighter pilot, he became regarded as one of the best pilots there. Unit commander Col. Maurice Udell considered Bush to be one of his top five pilots, Morrisey said.

``The kid did good,'' he said.

Each pilot had to perform alert duty where they patrolled for unidentified aircraft during the threat of the Cold War, Morrisey said.

``Bush Jr. did good for us,'' Morrisey said. ``He pulled alert and he did it all.''

Morrisey said that while Bush didn't get preferential treatment, not everyone was allowed into the National Guard.

``We wanted the best we could get. We never knowingly took an unworthy individual in the units I belonged to,'' he said. ``You're only as good your worst individual.''

This isn't the first time a reporter called Morrisey asking whether or not Bush received preferential treatment. Shortly after Republicans nominated Bush for president in 2000, a reporter from Texas called Morrisey.

``That floored me. The only people that got preferential treatment was when Jimmy Carter pardoned those guys that went to Canada,'' he said of individuals who fled to Canada to avoid the draft during the war in Vietnam.

Speaking of the controversy surrounding Bush's Guard service during the Vietnam era, Morrisey said: ``I think it's tragic. I think real people can filter through this. At least I hope so.''

Morrisey said he agreed with Bush's work as president and supported the administration's aggressive stance toward fighting terrorism and the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

``We've got to eliminate terrorists,'' he said. ``Let's get them where they're living instead of them getting my grandkids and great-grandkids here.''

Morrisey worked as the executive officer of the 147th Fighter Group from February of 1967 to July of 1968. From Texas he came to Alcoa where he was the first commandant of the Noncommissioned Officer Academy at McGhee Tyson Air National Guard Base. He also was ``dedicated to the development'' of the Air National Guard Leadership School and the Officer Preparatory Academy to commission Air Guard officers.

He was commandant for all three schools and became the first commander of the I.G. Brown Professional Military Education Center.

Morrisey has been involved in the community, including being a former member of the Blount Chamber of Commerce, president of the Maryville Kiwanis Club, Blount County Boys Club board member and on the ALCOA Scholarship Selection Committee.