Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#277507 - 05/12/05 11:00 PM Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I copied this from another site, it was not well recieved over there, B.S. was called instantly, if this type of thing is not welcome I appologize in advance..............


BY MICHAEL VENTURA

09/10/05 "Austin Chronicle" - - America is over. America is like Wile E. Coyote after he's run out a few paces past the edge of the cliff – he'll take a few more steps in midair before he looks down. Then, when he sees that there's nothing under him, he'll fall. Many Americans suspect that they're running on thin air, but they haven't looked down yet. When they do ...

Former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Paul Volcker, a pillar of the Establishment with access to economic information beyond our reach, wrote recently: "Circumstances seem to me as dangerous and intractable as any I can remember. ... What really concerns me is that there seems to be so little willingness or capacity to do anything about it" (quoted in The Economist, April 16, p.12). Volcker chooses words carefully: "dangerous and intractable," "willingness or capacity." He's saying: The situation is probably beyond our powers to remedy.

Gas prices can only go up. Oil production is at or near peak capacity. The U.S. must compete for oil with China, the fastest-growing colossus in history. But the U.S. also must borrow $2 billion a day to remain solvent, nearly half of that from China and her neighbors, while they supply most of our manufacturing ("Benson's Economic and Market Trends," quoted in Asia Times Online) – so we have no cards to play with China, even militarily. (You can't war with the bankers who finance your army and the factories that supply your stores.) China now determines oil demand, and the U.S. has no long-term way to influence prices. That means $4 a gallon by next spring, and rising – $5, then $6, probably $10 by 2010 or thereabouts. Their economy can afford it; ours can't. We may hobble along with more or less the same way of life for the next dollar or so of hikes, but at around $4 America changes. Drastically.

The "exburbs" and the rural poor will feel it first and hardest. Exburbians moved to the farthest reaches of suburbia for cheap real estate, willing to drive at least an hour each way to work. Many live marginally now. What happens when their commute becomes prohibitively expensive, just as interest rates and inflation rise, while their property values plummet? Urban real estate will go up, so they won't be able to live near their jobs – and there's nowhere else to go. In addition, thanks to Congress' recent shameless activity, bankruptcy is no longer an option for many. What happens to these people? Exburb refugees. A modern Dust Bowl.

For the rural poor it's even worse. They are the poorest among us, with no assets and few skills; they earn the lowest nonimmigrant wages in America, and they must drive. When gas hits $4, their already below-the-margin life will be unsustainable. They'll have no choice but to be refugees and join in the modern Dust Bowl migration. So, too, will people who live where people were never intended to live in such numbers – places like Phoenix and Vegas, unlivable without air conditioning and water transport (energy prices will rise across the board, regular brownouts, blackouts, and faucet-drips will be "the new normal" everywhere). In the desert cities, real estate will plunge, thousands will be ruined, most will leave – while all over the country folks will have to get used to "hot" and "cold" again.

But where will the new refugees go, and what will they do when they get there? They will migrate to the more livable cities, where rents are already unreasonable and social services are already strained, and where the new refugees will compete with immigrants for the lowest-level housing and jobs. Immigration issues will intensify to hysteria. Native-born Americans will clamor for work that only legal and illegal aliens do now. In a culture as prone to violence as ours, that will probably get ugly.

Meanwhile, suburbs and cities will be in various states of chaos, depending on their infrastructure. As inflation and interest rates rise, and the real estate bubble bursts, millions will see their assets plunge precipitously. In five years, many who are now well-off will live as the marginal live today, while the marginal will sink into poverty. With gas at $4-plus a gallon, real estate values will depend on nearness to working centers and access to transportation. As has already happened in Manhattan, the well-off will head for what are now slums, and the slum-dwellers will go God-knows-where. Places with decent rail service will be prime. Places without rail service will be in deep trouble.

One key to America's future will be: How quickly can we build or rebuild heavy and light rail? And where will we get the money to do it? Railroads are the cheapest transport, the easiest to sustain, and the only solution to a post-automobile America. (For reasons I haven't space to detail, hybrid cars and alternative energy won't cut it, if by "cut it" one means retaining anything like the present standard of living. See James Howard Kunstler's "The Long Emergency" on Rolling Stone's Web site. Also check Mike Ruppert's site http://www.fromthewilderness.com and the documentary The End of Suburbia.) A massive investment in railroad infrastructure could offer jobs to the unskilled and skilled alike, absorb much of the inevitable population displacement, and create a new social equilibrium 10 or 15 years down the line. Old RR cities like Grand Junction, Colo.; Amarillo, Texas; and Albuquerque, N.M., could become vital centers, offering new lives for the displaced. Railroads are key, but the question is: how to finance them?

There's only one section of our economy that has that kind of money: the military budget. The U.S. now spends more on its military than all other nations combined. A sane transit to a post-automobile America will require a massive shift from military to infrastructure spending. That shift would be supported by our bankers in China and Europe (that is, they would continue to finance our debt) because it's in their interests that we regain economic viability. What's not in their interests is that we remain a military superpower.

And that's where things get really interesting. The question becomes:

Can America face reality? If the government responds to the coming changes by attempting to remain a superpower no matter what, there is no way to underestimate the harm. The numbers speak for themselves. Soon we'll no longer have the resources to remain a military superpower and sustain a livable society that is anything like what we know today. It happened to England; it happened to Russia; it's about to happen to us. England sustained the transformation more or less gracefully; it lost its dominance while retaining its essential character. Russia is still in a period of transformation, but has remained a player thanks to its oil reserves. Europe in general – France, Germany, Italy, and Spain (all world powers in the fairly recent past) – is creating a post-national society, the most experimental form of governance since America's revolution. We have no appreciable oil, and we no longer have a manufacturing base. So what will the United States do? Sanely recognize its declining status and act accordingly, or make one last ignoble stab to retain its position by force?

Half a century ago James Baldwin wrote: "Confronted with the impossibility of remaining faithful to one's beliefs, and the equal impossibility of becoming free of them, one can be driven to the most inhuman excesses." Americans believe they're "No. 1," destined to lead the world. That is the America that's over. If we insist on that illusion, then this world is in for tough times. We will neither hold on to what we have nor create what we might have, but we will wreak untold harm (if we don't destroy the species altogether). Or we can face and embrace reality. And that reality is: There is no such thing as "No. 1" ... there is no such thing as an ideal destined country that is better than any other ... there is only us, doing the best we can, trying to live free and sanely, within limits that are about to become only too clear. Our glory days are done. What's next?

Remember, we're not talking about the far future. We're talking about the next decade.

No country gets two centuries anymore. The 21st will be China's century. That's what $4-plus a gallon means, and nothing can stop it. So: How will we change? But the question "How will we change?" is really the question "How will I change?" Because history isn't a spectator sport. It's you and me. Everything depends on whether we side with reality or illusion. Face reality, and we have a chance. Cling to illusion, and we are lost. The America we've known is over – very soon. The America we can create is up to us.

Michael Ventura will join Robert Bly, Joseph Chilton Pearce, Coleman Barks, and John Densmore, among others, at Bly's 31st annual Conference on the Great Mother and the New Father, May 28-June 5, in Wisconsin. For info e-mail greatmother@yelllowmoon.com

Copyright © 1995-2005 Austin Chronicle Corp

Top
#277508 - 05/13/05 09:31 AM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
I've been talking about peak oil around this place for two years.

Well written article. Unfortunately most on this board will choose to remain oblivious or in denial.
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

Top
#277509 - 05/13/05 12:17 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
People ignore it because it is based on a static model not a dynamic model. Oil will run out some day but we will mostlikely have transitioned to other resources, the economy will adjust over time or will have a pandemic and it will be a moot point.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

Top
#277511 - 05/13/05 02:25 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
Originally posted by Oregonian:


Quote:

Oil production is at or near peak capacity.
------------------------------------------------------------
Cough..cough...Bullsh!t


Quote:


China now determines oil demand, and the U.S. has no long-term way to influence prices. That means $4 a gallon by next spring, and rising – $5, then $6, probably $10 by 2010 or thereabouts.
------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone out there want to bet me that gas prices are going to be $4.00 a gallon next spring here in the United States, I say they won't...anyone...anyone, Bueller?


Quote:
Our glory days are done.


Remember, we're not talking about the far future. We're talking about the next decade.

No country gets two centuries anymore. The 21st will be China's century. That's what $4-plus a gallon means, and nothing can stop it. So: How will we change? But the question "How will we change?" is really the question "How will I change?" Because history isn't a spectator sport. It's you and me. Everything depends on whether we side with reality or illusion. Face reality, and we have a chance. Cling to illusion, and we are lost. The America we've known is over – very soon. The America we can create is up to us.

------------------------------------------------------------

They did a great show about the people who believe this crap last night on Southpark--the main advocate saying that the sky was falling was on a fake espsode of the O'Reilly Factor--the elderly, pony-tailed charactor's name was 'Aging Hippie Liberal Douche' \:D --the Southpark kids even started to believe that he had the answers and before they smartened up and realized, "dude, this is pretty gay" they made up a cute little song to help save the evironment...the chorus was something like , 'So ya' better Recycle that Can and Plant a Tree--because saving the Earth is up to you and me' \:D

...I think I'll go buy a Yugo, Scion, or Prius tomorrow and help do my part.
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

Top
#277513 - 05/13/05 04:49 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

Top
#277514 - 05/13/05 05:10 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Secondly, Americans are very adaptable people. Look how we have changed in 200+ years. Name a more adaptable society to ever inhabit this planet? besides insects \:D

The Chinese are the oldest culture but the avg. person there lives much the same as they did 1000 years ago.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

Top
#277515 - 05/13/05 05:47 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Quote:
Originally posted by Theking:
The Chinese are the oldest culture but the avg. person there lives much the same as they did 1000 years ago.
But that is changing: That is why China is now consuming so much energy - not nearly as much as us - but they are rapidly joining the industrialized world. After all, we need someone to produce all those cheap goods we buy form Wal Mart.

I do agree that peoples, not just U.S. people are very inventive and resilient. I suspect we will find alternate energy sources as well as ways to be much more energy efficient, but I also suspect that market forces may well cause dramatic changes in our life style.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

Top
#277516 - 05/13/05 06:08 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
Dave,

I hope so. We have lost our sense of what being connected to this world means.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

Top
#277517 - 05/13/05 09:33 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Howdy Rory.

Thanks for the intro Aunty M;
After the scorching intro you gave me on Rory, I'm curious how you'd describe me ?


You must all realize that I copied that article from another site where SOMEONE ELSE had posted it, and my aim was to see you people reactions/thoughts. My own thoughts are a little different than some folks....


I see that us rural people are coming out of the closet, so here I am....can't see any houses from my place, but can holler over to the neighbors if need be, pee off the poarch, plink with .22 rimfire and pellet guns in the yard at will, Hate to go into a Walmart, and almost never do !

oops, got company............

Top
#277518 - 05/13/05 09:57 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
I voted for W , believe in the wise use of our resources, and do think China is wanting to become a Bully someday, but I think much of the article above is pure B.S. !

Top
#277519 - 05/14/05 03:52 AM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
I really shouldn't be bothered to keep trying, but...

http://www.oilcrisis.com/us/NETL/OilPeaking.pdf
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

Top
#277520 - 05/14/05 12:03 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Oregonian:
I voted for W , believe in the wise use of our resources...
How do ya reconcile THIS???

That's like saying you are for Stalin but against mass murdering.


Top
#277521 - 05/14/05 02:03 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
Not looking to personally scorch anyone here Oregonian--just trying to bring a different perspective and add some levity to the board from time to time--I happen to think Southpark is funny as he!!, and in the same episode that spoofed liberals that I spoke of they gave it pretty good to conservatives as well.

Welcome to the forum.

_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

Top
#277522 - 05/14/05 06:51 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
RB: Something else we agree on ! I love Southpark. Yeah, they lampoon both sides. Thats fine with me. They both need it occassionally.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

Top
#277523 - 05/14/05 07:24 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Quote:
Originally posted by pacificnw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Oregonian:
I voted for W , believe in the wise use of our resources...
How do ya reconcile THIS???

That's like saying you are for Stalin but against mass murdering.

That's easy.................in general the libs want to stop logging, mining, and industry in general, and take away all firearms, as well as my right to use one to protect myself and my family if need be, and then on top of that, they want to tell people ***s are normal...including telling that kind of thing to little kids in school...


Wereas the Repubs want to use our resources to keep/get people working, and supplying our needs, I think if there was a way to do it, they'd probably like to get about a billion deadbeats off of welfare and back in the workforce too.....


I don't know if either party is perfect, but the Repubs are an easy choice over the libs for me.

Top
#277524 - 05/14/05 07:39 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Wereas the Repubs want to use our resources to keep/get people working, and supplying our needs, I think if there was a way to do it, they'd probably like to get about a billion deadbeats off of welfare and back in the workforce too....."

You've GOT to be kidding me, right? Do you actually BELIEVE this horse pucky? Seriously, I know LOTS of hard core R's and even they don't believe that "Repubs want to use our resources to keep/get people working." The R's have a ton of reasons to extract every last natural resource that is worth any money... but "keep/get people working" ain't on the list there pal.

As for the Dems wanting to "take all your guns"... PUUUULLLLEEEAASE... that line has gotten real tired by now. You can give a rest.

Top
#277525 - 05/14/05 07:54 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
Well when/if the libs dig up an electable candidate, you can show me, but it's been a while since that has happened, unless you are still proud of Slick Willie, who by the way, embarrassed you all quite well in case you didn't notice.


Let me see if I understand your point on gun control...Is gun control not on the Liberal agenda, and if not, then who is behind it ?

Top
#277526 - 05/14/05 07:54 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1557
Loc: Third stone from the sun
Quote:
Originally posted by pacificnw:

As for the Dems wanting to "take all your guns"... PUUUULLLLEEEAASE... that line has gotten real tired by now. You can give a rest.
------------------------------------------------------------

When was the last time you saw an National Rifle Association membership sticker on a Suburu or Hybrid car?

I see them (N.R.A. membership stickers) all the time on cars and trucks owned by God fearing republicans.

The cars you see on the road owned by democrats (Suburu', Scion' and Prius') usually only have Kerry/Edwards, Rainbow, Darwin/Walking Fish and Vote your Vagina! stickers on them--protecting law abiding citizens rights to keep and bear arms doesn't seem to be high on the democrats list of priorities.

Just an observance.

_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

Top
#277527 - 05/14/05 08:14 PM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Just an observation.......your head is WAAAY up your ass, Rory.

Bumper stickers are for dorks.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#277528 - 05/15/05 06:32 AM Re: Contoversial topic anyone ?
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
No fan of stickers on cars myself.


I think Rory's point was that in fact it is the Democratic party which is pushing tighter gun control, not really any way to dispute that. I also think there have been multiple examples in history of what a bad idea it is to remove the citizens firearms....remember that it was with firearms that WE became our own Nation !

Can you imagine the drop in violent offenses if every citizen were REQUIRED to learn safe gun handling, and carry a weapon all the time......... The bullying drug addicted gangsters would think twice about robbing a citizen if they KNEW he/she was preparred to defend themself, and others in need of assistance.


Guns are responsible for crime like silverware is responcible for obesity......

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  The Moderator 
Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
Al Gore, czer, Robb92, wallyw
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (steely slammer), 1217 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13526
eyeFISH 12767
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63781 Topics
645410 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |