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#279227 - 08/01/05 09:37 PM Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
Oh I am royally pissed. Last night at work some individual offered to put a bullet in my head. He said it in front of 4 Olympia PD officers. I called them to have him removed from the ER for making threats to harm staff out in the parking lot. He made a death threat towards me, in front of all four of them, and they refused to arrest him for it. The man was not drunk, was not high, and was not insane. I was told "He only said that because he wants to go to jail".

Any Oly PD on here who want to explain officer Johnson and Sgt Hutchinson's thinking?

The only time anybody gets arrested in the ED is after they've broken someones ribs, or stabbed one of the nurses. Otherwise its a free for all. Anybody can say anything they want and they are never held accountable. From what I've been told, if that same person returns to our ER we are obligated to treat him. Imagine someone at your workplace threatening to put a bullet in your head and the law states you can't refuse to serve him in the future.

I've let all 80 or so nurses in the ED know what has happened. I've written to my Union. I'm planning on chatting with the Mayor about it. My administration recieved my write up. The Olympian will be finding a letter to the editor. And depending on how my hospital admin reacts I might be talking with KOMO news.

I've already had discourse with my administrators about the level of physical violence, and potential for worse, in our ED. A staff member is going to be killed unless things change. This is not the first time those particular officers responded with less then full interest in the safety of the emergency room staff.

Anybody have any suggestions?

.


Vince

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#279229 - 08/01/05 09:52 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1714
Loc: brier,wa
Maybe there is a special deferral because of your left leaning postings on this BB?
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#279230 - 08/01/05 10:03 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
GP: Are you gettign grouchy cuz you can't get out fishing? Bet its cuz of your right wing posts!! \:D \:D
_________________________
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#279231 - 08/01/05 10:30 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
You know GP that post is in seriously bad taste. They've had a couple nurses stabbed at my work already, and of course threats of rape and violence. If you find that amusing something is seriously wrong with you.

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#279233 - 08/02/05 12:03 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
BMF Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Olympic Peninsula
Bro-

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#279234 - 08/02/05 12:09 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
BMF Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Olympic Peninsula
Bro-
I think that is complete BS what the cops did. They must be afraid of something. Why would they not take that guy to jail or at the least, haul him of the premises. It smells fishy to me. The must either be really lazy, incompetent jerks, or they fear some sort of reprimand or consequence for arresting this guy. I don't quite understand it. If I was a police officer and I knew someone just assaulted a civilian (which is what a death threat or threat to harm some one is), I would feel obligated to remove that person at the minimum. Especially if it involved people at a hospital trying to save lives and do a job. What are these cops afraid of? Why wouldn't they make an easy routine arrest? This sounds a little more comlicated to me than just two dumb cops. it is almost as if they have been instructed by their command to NOT arrest these individuals; but why?

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#279235 - 08/02/05 07:48 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
Thank you very much AuntyM for finding the actual statute. That will be very helpful.


BMF,

I got the impression it was out of laziness and incompetence that the officers refused to arrest this individual. I sensed that there was some dissent by at least one of the three that this guy should have been taken in.

Vince

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#279236 - 08/02/05 11:11 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Maybe they are misogynistic \:D
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#279237 - 08/02/05 12:19 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
TK,

That wasn't offensive, just stupid. What exactly was the joke? I look like a woman? Does your wife know you have this trouble distinguishing men from women?
Oh, maybe its another male nurse joke. But honestly, if your a homophobe maybe you should keep that to yourself. Plus its not really that great a field to meet guys. I end up going to parties with where its 5:1 female to male ratio. So my chances of having 2:1 action can be pretty good. If I was gay I'd be working construction around a bunch of guys, not 25-40 y/o divorced horny women...who buy me beers. Yea, I'm laughing my azz off TK. Your really killin me.
There wouldn't be a nursing shortage is 18 y/o boys knew what was available for them after they slip RN after thier name.
And yea I'm bragging. Free beer is always worth braggin about.

I know there are a few other guys who work as RN's that read and post on PP. If I'm wrong about anything on this thread, now is the time to post.

Vince

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#279238 - 08/02/05 12:29 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Selling pretty hard there V.

It was a joke, relax watch Meet the Parents.

Are you the HEAD nurse? ;\)
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#279239 - 08/02/05 12:34 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Vic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/05/00
Posts: 553
Loc: Everett, Wa, USA
Unfortunately the police aren't interested in anything that doesn't generate revenue for the state. Since locking up violent people costs the state money it isn't nearly as sexy as say a seat belt violation.

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#279241 - 08/02/05 01:13 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
AM,

Where did I bash gays?

There is a statue but it is always at the discretion of the officer. If it is near the end of their shift they may not want to do the paper work. Happens all the time.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#279243 - 08/02/05 02:28 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Right or wrong does not matter it happens. Secondly the officers could have seen the situation differently. There is not involuntary commitment law in this state. So if they arrest the guy most likely he goes up for a 3 day eval. So they give thought to it. Heat of the moment etc. We have local crazy that I have had aresseted 2x. Mostly for his own protection.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#279245 - 08/02/05 03:19 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
If it was done out of laziness, I'll make sure it becomes more troublesome then they could ever have imagined. I've contacted my Union Local 141. I've finished filling out an "Allegation of Serious Misconduct" form, and its in the mail to the city manager. I'm waiting to hear from the Olympian regarding my letter to the editor. And my employer better take it seriously, especially since they had two nurses stabbed just a couple months ago.

Hmmm, how else can I make their lives more miserable? I'll wait till the Hosp Admin contacts me before I call the news stations. I figure 2 weeks is a reasonable length of time.

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#279246 - 08/02/05 03:58 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Vhawk,

If the guy is under the control of the DOC its a different issue. If JQ citzen goes whacko the judge can order an eval . The state can only hold you for 3 days. Then another hearing to determine competence. After that they can hold you until the docs say you are good to go not one day longer but then only if you are a suspect or charged in a crime. They could have arrested the guy and he would most likely have been kicked in 24 hrs or less. How safe are you then? You need to study up on the process and you need an eval if you think the system can protect you for even one second. You can write all the letters and talk to whomever you want it will not change a thing unless the guy is picked up for the same thing down the road. Then it might get him a hand slap instead of a stern talking . The system is FUBAR and has been for some time.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#279247 - 08/02/05 09:23 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
The guy is very manipulative. I wanted him arrested so that at least that process could get started. He is not under the control of DOC.

I can't go into much detail about why he was there, or I'll be the one arrested.

As long as we keep gently escorting him out to where ever he wants after he acts like a total ass, he will continue to act like a total ass. If he gets sent to jail, even if only for 2 days, and he doesn't get treated like a freaking princess (which is exactly how they treated him), has to wait for his dam sandwiches (he ate like a king while in the ER), his outbursts not tolerated (which they are now), then maybe he won't act the way he does.

I'm pretty sure the guy is not going to buy a gun. In fact if I ever see him outside the hospital his chances of being the injured party are probably 99% greater then it being me. Not that I would ever intentional assault anyone of course. I'm more concerned about OPD's lack of enthusiasm regarding the safety of ER staff. I never see it reported in the paper, but our staff is physically assaulted on a regular basis. If people were escorted out in cuffs before it reaches that point we might save someone from a disabling back injury, or worse. There us this assumption that because you think you are injured, your behavior is not accountable. BS. I'll call it when I see it, BS. Probably the same kind of thing was going on the public buses in order for bus drivers to get that kind of legislation passed. I only wonder.

Thank you AuntyM for your support.


Vince

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#279248 - 08/03/05 12:30 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
grandpa Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 1714
Loc: brier,wa
Sorry for the initial insensitive joke...If I am reading this correctly it sounds like the person who allegedly threatened to shoot you is some sort of regular in your ER. If your ER is like others, say Harborview in Seattle, there are no doubt some crazy folks hanging out along with the uninsured elite (sic). Basically a hotbed of losers who may or may not be responsible for their actions.

What is missing is some context. Why did this loser pick on you? Perhaps you routinely try to make him go away and he tosses some faux threats your way to shut you up>? Can't tell from your account. Perhaps the cops are jaded from seeing the same junk every night? So they don't take it seriously.

As one who has had a 9mm pressed against their head I can say I know the difference between a real threat of death and the hackneyed threat that I have also heard...something like this: " Shut up fool or I gonna put a cap in yo ass...." Cops have a tough job and maybe they spotted the phony threat for what is was and you took it too seriously...Like I said without a real context it is hard to tell.

A lot of victims will tell you that the perp gets the slack while the victim gets ignored...Thanks to the liberal ACLU inspired view of justice...Perhaps the cops have been accused by ACLU types in the past for being too quick to jump on a poor misguided sole who was just acting up. Perhaps they have been drug into court time and time again only to see the perps walk on some ACKU inspired loophole?

Of course had I been assaulted by some loser who threatened to put a bullet in me I probably would have busted a cap in HIS ass and I would be in jail and he and his lawyer would be rich.

Maybe running to your union will work? Maybe you should call the ACLU and see if they want to sue the cops.
_________________________
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www.pugetsoundanglers.org

....Support the RFA rfawashingtonst.org

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#279249 - 08/03/05 01:24 AM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
VHawk. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2744
I was giving him his discharge paperwork. He was upset that he wasn't getting a free room and meal. He was pulling the "I'm going to kill myself if you don't admit me [to the hospital]." He frequently, over the course of years, has made that same threat when he doesn't get what he wants. I genuinely think that his behavior has gotten more aggressive with each visit, and each time his behavior is excused.
I am angry that he was even allowed to make that threat and all he got was a shoulder shrug response. I will not tolerate being someones waiter/house servant/maid and then have them threaten my life afterwards. BS. Its a class c felony. It was committed in the prescence of law enforcement, and I requested the perp be arrested. They refused and now I will make those officers lives miserable for their laziness.
Actually I get the impression that 2 of the 4 officers would have hauled that guy down to jail, but they were not in the position to make that call. When supervisors start calling I will make sure that point is clear. I don't want to get a decent guy into trouble just because some other ahole is being lazy.

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#279250 - 08/03/05 04:10 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1459
Loc: Third stone from the sun
Vhawk,

I don't wish you any ill will and I empathize with the unfortunate way the patient treated you while you were simply doing your job (providing him care)--However, the very organization you applaud (the A.C.L.U.) is directly responsible for thousands and thousands of dangerous-unstable people like this man you're dealing with being on the street and not in a hospital getting the treatment and medication he may desparately need.

Since there so many nut jobs, criminals and plain thugs running around these days, I'd suggest joining the N.R.A. http://www.nra.org and taking one of their gun safety courses and advanced personal protection/legalites classes --then get yourself a 27 http://www.glock.com/g27.htm and continue practicing while you apply for a C.W.P.--then (and only then) if you or your families lives are ever is seriously threatened and there aren't any police immediatley around to help--you can have the person(s) 'Talk to the Glock'.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/psyc/addington.htm

http://www.cqc.state.ny.us/counsels_corner/cc44.htm#back4

Quote:
Although the Supreme Court has since 1975 addressed other rights of persons with mental illness, recently it has issued two very significant rulings involving the treatment of mental illness which will be analyzed in this article. The first, Washington v. Harper,(3) is the long-awaited decision on the requirements of due process needed for involuntary treatment with psychotropic medications. The second decision, Zinermon v. Burch,(4) deals with a rather technical point of law, but one which is nevertheless very significant because the context of it is the issue of informed consent for psychiatric treatment.


Due Process and Involuntary Administration
of Anti-Psychotic Drugs

Treating a person with powerful anti-psychotic medications is a very serious matter. While such drugs might well be crucial for the amelioration of a mental illness, they often have well-known negative side effects which could include extrapyramidal movements, and even death in some circumstances.(5)
The legal issue that has arisen is not whether a competent person with mental illness has the right to refuse treatment with anti-psychotic medications in non-emergency situations; everyone agrees that they do. Rather, the issue is who determines the competency or validity of the patient's objection (i.e., should it be taken seriously?); and, if treatment over the patient's objection is to proceed, then who determines what treatment is in that patient's best interests?

Generally speaking, there are three possibilities, two of which involve a "clinical" determination of incompetency (i.e., by a clinician or other qualified professional) and the third involves a "judicial" determination of incompetency (i.e., by a court or quasi-judicial body).(6) Assuming in all of the following cases that the patient expresses an objection or refusal to the proposal for anti-psychotic medication, such treatment can proceed nevertheless under three types of due process:

Type-I a physician, with optional or mandatory consultation from another physician, can make the determination of the patient's competency to object and treat accordingly;
Type-II a psychiatrist's proposal to administer anti-psychotic medications can be submitted to a facility committee for ratification or rejection (an administrative-type proceeding); or,
Type-III the case must be brought to a court of law for a judicial proceeding on the patient's competency and the appropriateness of and any subsequent course of treatment.


Up to now and in general, state courts have increasingly been opting for type-III, by requiring judicial hearings for patients who object to anti-psychotic medications. The federal courts have tended to approve types I or II, as long as some judicial review was eventually or ultimately available to appeal from the administrative process.

In one very stark example of this dichotomy between state courts and federal courts, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, having jurisdiction over New York, Connecticut and Vermont, held that New York's mental hygiene regulation providing for a type-I proceeding was constitutional because that decision could ultimately be reviewed by a New York State court.(7) However, subsequently New York's highest court, the State Court of Appeals, ruled that New York's administrative process was unacceptable under the New York State Constitution in the case of Rivers v. Katz,(8) ruling that: "[s]uch a determination [of competency] is uniquely judicial, not a medical function." The Court of Appeals failed to make reference to the prior federal precedent even though it involved precisely the same State regulation.

On December 27, 1989, the Supreme Court addressed the involuntary psychotropic medication issue in the context of a prison inmate who was being treated in the prison's mental health unit. The patient was paroled on the condition that he participate in psychiatric treatment. The State revoked the parole after he assaulted two nurses at a private hospital where he was continuing to obtain this psychiatric treatment.

Now back at prison, the inmate was referred to the psychiatric unit once again and this time refused the offer of psychotropic medication. The legal procedure in the State of Washington for deciding on the validity of the refusal was a type-II, i.e., there was a special committee consisting of a psychiatrist, psychologist and the associate superintendent of the prison (none of whom could be involved in the inmate's treatment or diagnosis) to determine by majority vote whether the inmate suffers from a mental disorder and is gravely disabled or dangerous and should therefore be medicated against his will. Furthermore, there is a right to appeal the committee's decision to the superintendent of the center within 24 hours, and ultimately judicial review may be sought.
]The Supreme Court made two very important rulings in this case. The first was that the United States Constitution protected a person's liberty to the extent that a State must provide some acceptable form of due process before overriding that objection and forcibly medicating the person. Secondly, and more significantly, the Supreme Court held that satisfactory due process may be in the form of an administrative proceeding; it need not necessarily be a judicial one because a: " . . . State may conclude with good reason that a judicial hearing will not be as effective, as continuous, or as probing as administrative review using medical decision-makers. We hold that due process requires no more."

In light of the Washington v. Harper decision, it appears that the federal courts will not insist that an objection to psychotropic medications be decided by a judicial forum in all cases, as New York and other states have done. However, state courts may still do so in interpreting state constitutional requirements which often contain language identical to the federal constitution
-----------------------------------------------------------
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

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#279251 - 08/03/05 06:18 PM Re: Death Threats now legal in Olympia
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
That's right, blame the ACLU.

Don't blame the Supreme Court, who issued the ruling.

And certainly don't blame the US Constitution, which the Supreme Court was interpreting.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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