Perhaps. My purpose here is simply to promote and communicate what I feel Christianity is really about, and to try and answer any questions and clear up any confusion regarding the Bible and Christianity.

Would anyone really benefit from more 'Christian in-fighting'? Instead, I'm relying on your logic\reason and intellect to discern what true Christianity should look like, vs what it shouldn't. By clearly presenting the 'Truth' you should be able to draw your own conclusions about who is or who isn't living up to the 'label' of "Christian". The tricky thing is, nobody can really 'live up to it' 24x7 since nobody is perfect. So that is why I try to paint a picture of Jesus as described in the Bible - he is the model you should look to in understanding Christianity. Looking to me, TK, Pat Robertson, GW, etc will just help reinforce your copout of saying "look, more supposed Christians who are just as screwed up as anyone else, so Christianity must be a useless religion..."

Most religions, the works of men, fraternal (hah) organizations are quite useless except when they find the wherewithal to help some folks out... Faith in a supreme being, now that's another matter entirely.

Copout my butt. Facts are not copouts. A copout is what you just did by sidestepping and avoidance. One more reason I tend NOT to listen to any religious dogma you share here, because your judgment is poor. Maintaining your silence condones their behavior. If you don't separate yourself from them and their agenda, you are one of them.

It's about trying to hurt and humiliate non believers then? Because that's what your two cohorts attempt to do, while you sit there telling us how great Christianity is.

Why would you call it infighting? When Jeff'e'd spoke out about some of the "Christian" behavior he saw displayed here, he gained a great deal of my respect. No fight occurred. TK and Rory didn't challenge his condemnation, because they knew he was right.

You think "goodness" and all the desirable qualities lie with Christianity and it simply isn't the case. The people I consider to have the highest moral values and contribute the most to humanity are not Christians.

Aunty,

If you ever want to know why I say or do anything, you can always just ask.

It would be nice if you just let people talk for themselves. Most particpants on this board, myself included are fully capable of explaining their posts (or lack thereof) if someone wants to know the reasoning behind them.

The fact is that I never have anything negative to say about Jeff'e'd because ever since I've been reading his posts here on PP, I've noticed and respected the polite, considerate and articulate ways he contributes to this forum. I may not always agree with what he says, but it's pretty hard to shoot the messanger when the message is delivered with so much maturity and class.

When you learn to follow his example, you'll be treated the same way he is. If you can't respect anyone else's view if it's different from yours, don't expect any in return. Note... IN RETURN!

You start every thread with "Liberals are this or that." We don't even need to read what you copied and pasted to know you're insulting a group here, AGAIN. Then, when we treat you like you deserve, you whine.... boo hooo hooo...

Do unto others Rory. Something I would have thought you would have learned a long time ago.

Show me where i've ever said that?

I'd be interested in seeing your list (top 5 even) of "those who contribute most to humanity".

What I said...

And your response;

The "people" I'm referring to are people that I know personally. There is no reason for me to list them for you, since you don't know them. They sure don't deserve to have their names plastered on the internet.

If you were thinking I meant famous people, I can understand your curiosity. Since I don't really "know" anyone that falls into that category, I certainly wouldn't (and didn't) make that claim. I was referring to ordinary people that I know or have known.

I didn't claim that you said it. Most of your posts "imply" that's what you, and the other Christians think. I was giving you my summation of the message I hear.

I am like a mirror refelcting the anger you have in yourself. Divorces, Failed relationships. Unfulfilled dreams, estranged family relationships. Humanism is not providing the answers.

OK, last one and I'm caught up.


>>>“THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS.. “

***What are your personal credentials for being the bearer of the “TRUTH”?? Or did you mean “your opinion of the truth”?


>>>“God has never told anyone, anything, at any time.. ever. “

***Your faith seams pretty strong in this conviction…


>>>“Most organized religion hold on to the theory that God told some folks ( directly mind you) how it is and should be many thousands of years ago.. and never has said another word since... “

***This again is by logical design. We have enough trouble now days with churches disagreeing on the slightest doctrinal issue. Imagine what it would be like if we had every tom, dick, and harry telling everyone that God gave them a ‘NEW MESSAGE’ last night? Actually that is just what many cults have been doing for years, but again, that is another topic… Instead, God gave us all we need to know via the Bible. Like the US Constitution, we know what it says (some healthy and some not so healthy disagreements aside) and we know for sure when someone tries to add or take away from it. We have a solid baseline. You see lots of Bible translations simply flop because they just stray too far from the Word. You see man pastors (and even political leaders) flop because they try to twist the Bible and lead the church members astray. They rely on ignorance from the people and if they are ‘good’ and persuasive, they have a successful little (or big) cult… But with enough educated and thinking people out there, we can keep this kind of thing in check.


>>>>“However, as far as Christians go, they all interpet his words ( what or if there were any and I doubt it ) actually mean. Most often to the tune of some cash profit or control of the population. Organized religion discredits itself by discrediting each other”

***Interpreting the Bible isn’t as tough as a lot of you try to make it. Sure, there are certainly some tough and confusing areas, but 95% of it is clear as day. Most people just don’t really try. They read an old King James version with all the confusing language like Thou and Thee and Shalt – and just give up.

In my church, we all study the Bible together. The pastor teaches directly from the Bible and covers about a book per month (some books take several months). Then we have small groups of bible studies. We work through the confusing stuff and once in a while we just have to agree to disagree. But most often we can see that with some understanding the context (historical, cultural, biblical, etc), we reach the same conclusions.

There are many bad apples in the Christian world (historically and currently), but the fact is, if you REALLY understood all the Christianity has done historically and currently in promoting education, freedom, equality, helping the truly poor and sick, etc etc it would surprise you.

As far as ‘organized religion’ goes, just keep in mind that the Christian church is made up of the church members from all walks of life. Christianity is about individuals coming together for a common cause – to serve as Christ served. But it is easy and common for church leaders (many who start out with good intentions) to get caught up in the power, money, control, etc. This is one reason I like that there are so many various denominations (and non-denominational) churches in the world. If we all had only one choice – like in the times when the Roman Catholic Church was the only choice, there would be way too much room for mass corruption, gov’t control\manipulation, etc.

Not to you, maybe.

And religion is providing the wrong answers, like it always has.

I guess it really depends on what questions are being asked and who is being asked...

Here are some answers that many would consider 'right':

http://www.worldvision.org/worldvision/master.nsf/home/

================================================
World Vision has been at the forefront of AIDS prevention, care and advocacy for more than a dozen years. In 1990, the Christian humanitarian organization launched its first AIDS-related program, helping orphans in Rakai, Uganda – the epidemic's ground zero. Other early programs involved helping Romanian children infected with the AIDS virus and providing support for Thai women and girls trying to escape prostitution. By the mid 1990s, World Vision began requiring its health programs worldwide to include HIV/AIDS-related training. Read more...

========================================

The government of Niger declared a national emergency May 27 in response to the West African country's growing food shortage after drought and locust swarms destroyed most of the last year's harvest and nearly 40 percent of livestock fodder.

In his official declaration, Niger's Prime Minister Hama Amadou appealed to the international community for aid to help feed 3.6 million people, including some 800,000 children under the age of five.

Niger, with a population of about 12 million people, is one of the world's poorest countries. Most families earn less than a dollar a day. Even in the best years, 40 percent of children are malnourished and 25 percent die before they turn five.

World Vision has signed a contract with the World Food Program to distribute nearly 1,500 metric tons of food in response to the crisis. But nearly 224,000 tons will be required to meet the national need.

=========================================

In Gulu, a northern district of Uganda, World Vision runs the Gulu Children of War Center, a counseling center for former child soldiers. Started in 1995, the center receives abducted children, provides medical support and therapeutic feeding to the malnourished, and facilitates smooth reunion of the children with their families. More than 9,000 children and adults have passed through the center. The center also provides vocational skill training for formerly abducted children.

============================================

and much more:

http://www.worldvision.org/about_us.nsf/child/ways_we_help_main?Open&lid=sector&lpos=body


PS - World Vision is a local (Fed Way) Christian relief and development organization.


Here's another one you may have heard of - the Salvation Army and a link to their services:

http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_...CB?openDocument


And this is just in tiny sampling of what is going on out there...

In my current church, we just had a team of over 30 people return from building houses in Mexico for the poor. This is an annual trip.
Our pastor (a carpenter by trade) is currently in Mississippi with another team of church members helping rebuild after the hurricane dammage. We have something going on year round locally and internationally.


And of course I'm NOT saying that only Christians are doing good things around the world....

No more than 2 kids per couple... replace yourself and the growth rate will flatten out. Learn how yo live within our means with a cap on population. Then, when we can figure out how to supply the energy, housing, food and water needs of more people, lift the lid accordingly.

:D Some here will call you bad names for posting such extreme ideas. However, it's well grounded in good old common sense. One of those qualities possessed by our forefathers that made our country great.

There are also some here that believe technology will get us out of this "energy problem" we're having.

There are even those that believe we should continue our current economic growth programs with unwavering support because...

"there is no scientific proof that our economic and energy policies are having an impact on the global climate." (some Bush flunky)

So what the hey... if there is no proof then climate change must not be happenin' and it must be OK to keep on doing what we're doing. Wrong.

We had better change and we had better do it now, and not for the next generation (or the next adminstration) where we may have grown by another 20, 30, or 40% (depending on how vigorously people of child-bearing ages reproduce).

There is one big problem with the concept of self impossed limits on kids... A great example of this issue can be seen in France today. The more 'enlightened' people are quickly fading away (population wise) and the amount of foreigners (mostly muslim) are taking over. Basically, unless you can enforce it globally, all your're really doing is allowing your 'kind' (those who agree with limitting the amount of kids they have and other environmentally friendly life choices) to be replaced at a faster rate by those who could care less beyond what happens today.

hmmmm...

I've heard of the "arms race" (in military terms) but I don't think I've heard of the "offspring race."

If we assume that this is what is occurring I would make an observation. The problem with the "offspring race" is that in most regions of the globe where it is practiced, people do not produce enough food to provide for the populations... and many die a horrible death. More reason to implement change.

PS Not being negative here but I would not use anything that is going on in France as an example of something happening anywhere else... the government in that country is unique if not totally bizzare.

"PS Not being negative here but I would not use anything that is going on in France as an example of something happening anywhere else... the government in that country is unique if not totally bizzare."

The same thing is happening in Italy, Germany, The Netherlands and a few more European nations.

Guess they needed to have a stricter immigration policy, just like we SHOULD.

Funny, this administration "doesn't get it" either.