In order to control population growth in the US, should the number of children people can have be limited?

I'm more in line with reducing the number of people hopping the fence and comming here. That in itself would make the problem self resolving. In fact, it would make a lot of problems self resolving.

No.

I would rather they have to obtain a license first and provide proof that they have good parenting skills and the financial means to raise children. You could cut the poverty level drastically in just 2 decades.

Science will enable us to pull this off some day. Mandatory birth control.

Make divorces harder/more expensive to get, and make marital counseling free for those in need. ( )

And sterilize extreme right wing republicans!

LOL. The left wing doesn't need sterilization. They are emasculated by their political stance.
Even better after your third year on welfare you get an automatic vasectomy or fallopian ligature.

Aunty

Not sure if you meant this as a joke or were serious but the more I see of peoples parenting skills lately I couldn’t agree more with you. This would mean however that my nephews would have never been born.

I think AuntyM is on the right track and agree that borders need to be fixed...

We need to make adoption much easier and afordable - it is literally a crime how they are doing it now days... 2 kids of your own, and then you should be STRONGLY encouraged to adopt if you want more kids (and can show that your family is stable and can afford them...). I don't think it should be 'forced', but it should be practically free and come with increased tax cuts...

Marriage AND Divorce should be taken more seriously. A marriage license should be required and given after a simple class or counciling session (no more vegas style weddings between to drunks who don't even know eachothers real names ). Then to have a baby, the process should be similar.

Not sure how this could be enforced though. I think the best approach is to offer insentives. In a sense, offer money, tax cutts, etc for 'doing the right thing'. Trying to force this kind of thing on people just won't work - invasion of privacy, religious freedom, etc etc.

Now the idea of mandatory birth control while you are on Welfare sounds good to me. When you go to pick up your monthly check, they give you a birth control shot that lasts a month... Probably not realistic though... (PS, this goes for men too. Guys who live off the gov't wagon shouldn't be making babies all over the state that they can't afford to pay child support for...)

I know 3 people that are going to China in the next two weeks to pick up babies. Much easier than doing it here.

Well, China can be easier, and cheaper - especially for the girls who are litteraly dumped on the street because the value boy babies much more and are limitted to how many they can have (one or 2 I think).

It can get ugly though. I've heard of horror stories about couples finding a baby, then it takes 2 years of back and forth traveling, paper work, gov't beaurocracy (sp?) etc. Then when you are so far into it emotionally and financially and just want to get your now 2-3 yr old child home - you have to fork out even more money on bribes or force more 'delays'....

LT, I am sorry to say, I'm serious.

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that my idea is rascist or picks on the poor, let me point out that there is no shortage of low income families that do a good job of parenting. I see more middle class young parents who make grave mistakes parenting than I can stomach.

A trend that sociologists need to recognize is the new generation of welfare queen. Instead of living off welfare completely, which has become difficult to accomplish, she now has decided to become impregnated as many times as she can by different fathers, to collect enough child support so that she doesn't have to work. She may not get cash from the governmentt, but she still gets medical for her kids and food stamps and her housing is nearly free! Oh, and she has an apartment with pool, spa, sauna, gym etc...

The cash comes from the daddys (and she choses men who have good income potential, but think with their peckers!)

I just described my ex daughter in law. What is sickening, is that she has a large network of female friends and they actually TEACH each other how to work the system and the men! They also cover several states and will relocate if it's finacially beneficial.

And my experience is they are lousy mothers to boot!

Until men have safe and effective choices in birth control, these disgusting examples of women will get away with adding to the population and continue to burden our society.

(Can you tell I am bitter? )

Aunty

Your not bitter, just wise to the having baby's for the welfare check game.

Yea, Aunty M!

A loving God would never have made viable gonads the sole requirement of parenthood.

If I had my ruthless way, there'd be no simple monthly check for welfare mothers. Pregnant moms who want society to pick up the tab would have to check in to a gov't institution, giving up most of their personal freedom, especially freedom of further reproduction. While there, they get good housing, education, job training, and pre and post natal care. Sort of a boot camp for pregnant idiots.

Then a gov't goon squad would make sure the dads contribute $ support for the system. Those who don't volunteer are hunt down as dead beat dads as get their nads whacked to prevent repeat offenses.

We can't make people make good decisions, but we can create disincentives for bad ones and incentives for making good ones.

Children should not be born into poverty and condemed to be "raised" by parent(s) not up to the task.

Gee, did ya' think I had a strong opinion on a matter like that?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

How do these dad's get away with out paying child support?

I know they do but where does the system fall short of them having to actually pay?

AM,

I agree with what you say but the men are not victims but willing participants. I feel no sorrow for men in this situation. I only feel for the kids.

LT,

I think the cost of hunting down dead beat dads is pretty high. Many move out of state and make it hard for the originating state to find them and then shake them for the support they owe. There was federal legislation I believe that facilitates inter-state cooperation on that. I know of a Nevada dad getting his check garnisheed by WA, but it took so long that he only ended up paying like 3 out of 18 years of child support.

That's why I propose a goon squad. Some of these dimbulbs can't read letters on state agency letterhead, but they get a clear understanding of broken bones and how to prevent repeat breakage.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

SG

I'm all for the goon squad, my tax $$ could be put to better use then paying for someone else's children because they are too irresponsible.

Funny how the government (IRS) has no problem tracking people down to get the money owed to them but will do little to help the average citizen. Heck even the local gov has a good system for collecting money. Many people are arrested for not paying parking tickets but the wellfare of a child means nothing.

It would seem that tracking down the non paying dad’s would be cheaper then forking out well fair for years.

Can not emphasize just how correct that is. They DESERVE to have a good home life and loving parents.

TK, victims are still victims even if they are willing. In my son's case, he was 17 and still in high school and she was in her second year of college. We regret not having her arrested for statutory rape.

She got pregnant (not by my son) while she was still in high school. After she graduated, the state paid for 2 years of JR college and one year at University. She decided it was too hard. She got pregnant again, this time by my son, so she could drop out.

A few years go by, she has 1 MORE baby, (his) she breaks up with my son, because he isn't making enough money to buy her a new house and new car.

She had to go back on welfare, since she had 3 kids, one under a year old. The state then paid for technical school training (plus food stamps, housing and child care over and above what she received for child support) for a medical insurance billing course that took over a year to complete.

I am not done!

After she finished the technical course, working and being a single mom was too hard and she wanted to stay home so she got pregnant AGAIN by some other guy before she was even divorced from my son.

My son made his bed (tic) and he has to lie in it. It got so bad during the 2 year divorce process he had to endure, he finally gave up all visitation so he wouldn't ever have to set eyes on her again. It was the right thing to do, since she was attempting to get him to be violent every chance she got.

So TK, you can make most any claims about how viscious and terrible women are and I won't argue.

Sorry to hear about that AM. At 17 the big brain does not listen to the little brain. But number child nuber two what was he thinking?
Is it hard as a GP not to want to go after the kids?

Even though I don't get to see my grandaughters now, there is some consolation. The oldest takes after me BIG TIME (even to the extent that she liked fishing!) and will be giving her mother grief for many years. They already don't get along very well. It will only get worse when she becomes a teenager.

It's been harder on my hubby. He thinks being away from home all those years and not "being there" was the cause. I don't happen to agree.

#2 came along due to trickery and lies. My son was raised in a trusting and honest environment. Stupid me! He had no idea that any human could be that cruel and devious. Neither did we.

Anyway, I lacked drama in my own marriage and have been spoiled rotten, so I expect I deserved this in some wierd way.

I will admit, the daughter in law had enough baggage from her own childhood to cause her to do much of what she did. Her mother set her up for failure by raising her to think men should be used and abused.

I could imagine it is hard for parents not to blame themselves. I am not in that position with just young kids. I have always manintained that at about the age of 16 one is responsible for ones own life as by then you really know right from wrong. You can only take them so far.

"A loving God would never have made viable gonads the sole requirement of parenthood."

Hmmm, interesting perspective... kinda.

So if Salmo was 'god' for a day (think Jim Carey's recent movie...), how would you create the human body differently?

Keep in mind that you have to allow for 'free will'.

You don't have any control of Gov't - so making laws won't cut it - and even then you need to think internationally- laws\rules would need to apply world wide.. A huge percetage won't believe you even exist and many who do don't really listen to you anyway...

Keep in mind the history of man (let's just say the last 10,000 years for grins....). At times, people's life expectancy was 30-35yrs of age. Getting married as early teens was \ had to be common practice. If you didn't start a family young, you wouldn't survive...

I'm sure there are many other factors, but i'm curious as to how our bodies could have been designed better to match the demands of human history, cultures, etc.


Something else to ponder - why isn't teen pregnancy and 'welfare queen' syndrome pretty much unique to the the US and really only in the last 30yrs? (not that there haven't always been problems with sex\pregnancy throughout history of mankind - but not nearly as widespread as today in the US and I think some African nations)


Also, consider this from God's perspective (assuming that there is one at this point - just for conversation)...

Let's say God is like a auto manufacturer. He designs the 'perfect car'. It has manufacturers guidlines of operation and is intended for commuting on paved roads - a Honda Accord if you will... So some dude takes this Accord offroading, doesn't read the owners manual, never maintains the car other than give it gas - then acts suprised and complains to his friends when the car breaks down on him... Should we blame God when the result of a person's 'free will' basically ruins what should have been a 'good thing' if it was just used as it was designed?

(I didn't really think that through, so not sure how good of a metaphor it is...)

I don't know what Salmo would do, but I would create one that doesn't wear out, doesn't need replacement, and doesn't need me (God) as a crutch.

"but I would create one that doesn't wear out, doesn't need replacement, and doesn't need me (God) as a crutch."

Well, that is exactly what he did if you believe what the Bible says about Heaven.

Who needs God as a 'crutch'? Is a child's parent a 'crutch' to him\her? I guess some kids do use their parents in that way (as some use the gov't that way too) - but with God and with a healthy family, the relationship is based on love.

As Tina Turner would say, "What's love got to do with it?"

Unless God suffers from some sort of self esteem issues, why does he create man so that man can shower love and devotion on him?

------------------------------------------------------------

You can do better than that--next time have God manufacturing Harley Davidsons.

"Unless God suffers from some sort of self esteem issues, why does he create man so that man can shower love and devotion on him?"

Why do most (healthy) parents have kids? If love isn't part of it, I can see where a lot of problems are stemming from...
But anyway, do parents have kids so they can force them to love, respect, admire, and just like to be with them? Forcing them to do this would defeat the whole point. But when you show your kids love and they freely give love back - that is a big part of what life is all about and a model of what God wants our relationship with Him to be like... Love has everything to do with it. Unless of course you just enjoy bitterness, lonliness, etc

So we don't have to mow the lawn for the rest of our lives.
G

Not according to what I read here. I "must" obey God's word and accept his son as my personal savior or go to hell.

That isn't love to me. That's a demand.

Your just an infidel Aunty, a heathen, and soon, an enemy of the state.


KK

If obeying God's Word was a 'requirement', nobody would pass the mustard... (or whatever that expression should be...)

It actually works like this...

You see yourself for what you are - a non-perfect human being. Someone who makes mistakes, does selfish things from time to time, etc etc. Even if you are practically a 'saint', you realize you could never truely be 'perfect'.

You then see God for what He is. Perfect in everyway.

No matter how hard you try, you can never be 'perfect enough' to earn your way to be with Him.

If you take a gallon of pure water and add the smallest drop of contaminated water to it, you no longer have pure water. Or if you have something that is perfectly light, and add a tiny bit of darkeness, that light is no longer perfect. The point is, our imperfection and God's perfection are simply incompatible.

God solved that problem through Jesus Christ. A perfect sacrifice. He sits at the right hand of God (so to speak) and when God judges our imperfect selves, Jesus steps in for us and says "he is one of mine, I paid the price for his sins".

If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you have the 'way' to bridge that gap between the perfect God and the imperfect person.

It is a natural following of making this free choice to accept Him as your Saviour, that you show your love and appreciation for what He did for you (being crucified on the cross as the ultimate and perfect act of self sacrifice) by trying to follow His teachings...

I'm sure you are pounding your head against a wall about now or maybe just laughing or even a little freaked out

But I just wanted to clarify what you said a little (or maybe just confuse you more...).

And there in lies the problem. Please explain WHY he can't just give unconditional love to that which he himself created. He can't BE perfect without that unconditional love! There are too many "conditions" to your religion, and I believe they are man made, not God's requirements.

That's why your Cristianity does not work for me. I don't believe God requires that which you believe at all.

The inventor of the Harley-Davidson motorcycle, Arthur Davidson,
died and went to heaven. At the gates, St. Peter told Arthur, "Since
you've been such a good man and your motorcycles have changed
the world, your reward is, you can hang out with anyone you want in
Heaven."
Arthur thought about it for a minute and then said, "I want to hang out
with God

St. Peter took Arthur to the Throne Room, and introduced him to God.
God recognized Arthur and commented, "Okay, so you were the one who
invented motorcycles, eh?!"
Arthur said, "Yeah, that's me..."
God commented: "Well, what's the big deal in inventing something that's
pretty unstable, makes noise and pollution, and can't run without a
road?!"
Arthur was apparently embarrassed, but finally spoke, "Excuse me, but
aren't you the inventor of woman???"
God said, "Ah, yes."
"Well," said Arthur, "professional to professional, you have some major
design flaws in your invention:
(1). There's too much inconsistency in the front-end protrusion
(2). It chatters constantly at high speeds
(3). Most of the rear ends are too soft and wobble
(4). The intake is placed way too close to the exhaust
(5). And the maintenance costs are outrageous!!"
"Hmmmm, you may have some good points there," replied God, "hold on."
God went to his Celestial super-computer, typed in a few words and
waited
for the results. The computer printed out a slip of paper and God read
it.
"Well, it may be true that my invention is flawed," God said to Arthur,
but
according to these numbers, more men are riding my invention than
yours".

But it actually is unconditional love. Just not unconditional justice at judement time. There must be justice and accountability for all sin to bring that which is not perfect in unison with that which is. He fixed that problem by offering up His son to take the full measure of the required judgement for those who simply accept this offer of salvation\grace.

As a Christian, I still sin. I am not perfect. But when I sit before God and am held accountable for my sins, Jesus will be my advocate. It's free and unconditional. But there will be justice and accountabilty in the end...

You turned the Key Auntym. Most of the religions dogma is just that, dogma. The fraternal orgnizations that call themselve the manifestation of God on earth are full of themselves. I personally believe that none of the creations of man, religions in this case, is the work of God. God is out there in the forest, on the mountain top, at sea, and in your heart and head. The rest of it is froth. That is not to deny the obvious rules a society must live by to survive.

You turned the Key Auntym. Most of the religious dogma is just that, dogma. The fraternal orgnizations that call themselve the manifestation of God on earth are full of themselves. I personally believe that none of the creations of man, religions in this case, is the work of God. God is out there in the forest, on the mountain top, at sea, and in your heart and head. The rest of it is froth. That is not to deny the obvious rules a society must live by to survive.

You turned the Key Auntym. Most of the religious dogma is just that, dogma. The fraternal orgnizations that call themselve the manifestation of God on earth are full of themselves. I personally believe that none of the creations of man, religions in this case, is the work of God. God is out there in the forest, on the mountain top, at sea, and in your heart and head. The rest of it is froth. That is not to deny the obvious rules a society must live by to survive.

The perfect God is also the perfect environmentalist. Look at all the cool stuff he made!

God took care of the 'doing' part via Jesus. We just have to recognize it.

Why did he bother sending Jesus? Unconditional love. Nobody 'deserved' it based on their own 'doing'...

Christians follow the teaching of Jesus. Some get a little side tracked and mislead in areas... But all we need to do is look to the Bible. The NT was written by the direct apostles of Jesus. Our current Bible translations are pretty darned close to the original texts\letters....

------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:16, John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

http://www.gotquestions.org/John-3-16.html

God does love everyone--Man and woman (Adam and Eve) were created and had 'heaven on earth' in the Garden of Eden~and had all their needs met with no pain or suffering of any kind for them or their offspring for all eternity and all God asked of them is that they not eat from the Tree of Knowledge --Then Satan, in the form of a snake convinces Eve that God has lied to her and her partner Adam concerning the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It convinces her to eat the fruit of the tree so that they will become as gods.

They were then cast out of the Garden of Eden after she ate from the tree (this is where we get the phrase 'she ate me out of house and home.'

Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps some people took a good and decent man and turned him into the Son of God. Maybe the idea to control simple people led others to expand upon the idea.

WHAT PART OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

I post about simple minds, and look who shows up! Rory!

Aunty,

It's unfortunate you're so turned off by Christianity-- It seems as though your only knowledge and/or exposure to it is the gloom and doom, fire and brimstone judgement that you always talk about. There are some churches that unfortunately give that impression to people--but what you and others (including many of those who describe themselves as Christians) don't get about salvation~is that according to the Bible, God states clearly that we don't earn our way into Heaven by our acts or 'good deeds'--if the was the cost of entry no one could ever afford it--We are given the gift of forgivenes for our sins (or transgretions) and eternal life for the price of reaching out to him (God) with faith and accepting his Son as our Savior.

The 'conditions' you speak of (living our lives free of sin and following God's rules as outlined in the Bible) are not required to get into heaven itself~but rather a guide for living here on earth with the most ease, peacefullness, joy and fullfilment as is possible.

ALL those who a become Christians will invarably sin or fall short of what God wants from us at some point. The story of the Prodigal Son is a great illustration into God's unconditional love for his children:

The Parable of the Lost Son

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[b]'

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

Salmo this is one of the best posts I've read on this board.....ever! Another HUGE problem is that the loving, caring GRANDPARENTS of these kids get dragged back into child rearing duty at the time in their lives when they deserve to relax and go fishing whenever they want! My own father in law got stuck with this....his loser son's girlfriend dropped off their 2-year old "for a visit" one fine day....well, that friggin' visit has lasted 15 years. We lost my mother-in-law 5 years ago........can you imagine being essentially a "single father" at age 82? Uncle Mingo handles fishing duty (she took her first smallie, a nice 3 pounder, under my tutelage recently ) and yard maintenance and my wife is more or less a surrogate mother....like many of you have said, the kids deserve better but this society has got to STOP REWARDING IRRESPONSIBILITY! All day long people flap their gums about "my rights, my rights"..............but they never ever flap their gums about "my responsibilities"....NO, they'd rather play now and let the rest of us pick up the tab.

Nicely stated Salmo.......you too, AuntyM!

Rory, again WHAT PART OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE DON'T YOU GET?

When there is a price charged, it's a condition. I never said ANYTHING about how God wants people to live their lives free of sin, so why try to claim that's what I said? READ IT AGAIN! WHAT PART OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Neither you nor PhishPhreak can alter the truth and the truth is, it IS conditional love you're preaching.

A perfect God would NOT put a price on salvation, because there isn't anyone that needs saving in the first place. It's a long running hoax as far as I am concerned and only the gullible fall for the "doctine" created by men to control others.

Wow.. any subject and its about God again.

I think there is a God. Jesus was a man. Nothing more. The Bible was written by people who knew for certain that the earth was flat.

Live your life with the hope that people treat you today like you treated them yesterday and you will be fine.

There is a place for organized religion. Problem is, the majority of wars, killing etc have been instigated and carried out in the name of God, by organized religion.

No matter how right you think you may be about whatever religion you follow, you are in a minority group as most of the rest of the world disagrees with you.

Christians ( from all groups) seem to pick and choose which teaching from the rules book ( the bible) that they want to follow. If there is a God, and I am sure there is, his love is unconditional, or this planet would be empty with the exception of whoever it happens to be thats actually right.

Sorry to hear about all the single mothers ruining peoples lives etc. At the same time, it takes two idiots to make it happen. End of story.

" The reason there is hair on it is so you can't see the hook "... My Grandfather.. 1976 or so.

This is becoming a very wide spread problem, didn’t they coin a term for this?

There was a show on 20/20 or something like that. The show went over how today’s generation of parents are lacking in responsibility and leave much of the parenting duties up to the Grandparents.

I am 35 and my wife and I have our first kid on the way. He will be born around November 19th. I can tell you this, if I were to become a slacker parent, I would fear the can of whoop ass my mom would come deliver on me.

Aunty
Sounds like the perfect marriage to me
My side of the family has little drama, actually none at all. My wife’s side is filled with it. She gets off the phone with here family and just starts shaking her head at the crazy stuff her family gets into. After seeing so many marriages go bad my wife and I sure are glad we found each other.

LT is gonna have a baby!

One thing that gets repeated over and over again on this board is that new dads lose fishing time. That doesn't have to be the case!

Find a way to plunk if you have to. We pier fished when my son was a few months old. Especially at night. We were able to drive onto the pier, so he stayed in his car seat a few feet from where our rods were. Just keep them bundled, warm and fed and they will grow up loving the outdoors!

When I was a small baby, my parents took me and my brother to Lake Erie on the weekends so my dad (and sometimes my mom if one of my aunts was available to babysit) could go fishing. I must have liked it.

"Wow.. any subject and its about God again. "

Hmmm, that is interesting. Who mentioned God