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#299252 - 05/02/05 02:18 PM Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
barnettm Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 622
Loc: Maple Valley, Wa.
To me this was the important question regarding this fishery, and here is the response I received from WDFW:

*************************************

Michael:
Last year the winter treaty Indian troll fishery was managed as a season, October 1, 2004 - April 30, 2005, the catch assumption that was modeled was based on the most recent six-year average of 1,650 fish. This year the fishery is November 1, 2005 - February 28, 2006, 4 days per week, not to exceed a catch quota of 8,500 fish.

Phil Anderson
Intergovernmental Resource Management
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
*************************************

I personally am satisfied with this result and would like to suggest that maybe a boycott would not be productive as we have achieved about all that we could expect to achieve.

Any thoughts??

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#299253 - 05/02/05 02:26 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Hoghunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 463
I will continue to boycott Neah Bay and would encourage others to do the same. I don't see this as much gain for the sportsman. We still got nailed for making up the overage they took from the threatened chinook this year. They were willing to give up nothing there. And as far as that guideline the Phil writes about, as far as I'm concerned it's not worth the paper it's written on. The real issue here is that when (not if) the Makah exceed their quota next year nothing will happen to them. It never does. They get their hand slapped and told to stop and then the next time it's the same old same old again. The only thing that will ever stop the tribes from doing as they please is when they truly have to answer to some entity. Right now they answer to no one. Some may think I'm negative, but after 30 year's of watching what the tribes have done since the Boldt decision I have nothing to influence me to think differently.

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#299254 - 05/02/05 02:36 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
AkKings Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/13/00
Posts: 1865
Loc: Kelso Wa.
I agree with Hoghunter, we are basically powerless to stop them, about the only thing we can do is it them where it hurts, in the wallet. Send them a message, don't fish Neah Bay.

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#299255 - 05/02/05 03:29 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
DriftWood Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/22/01
Posts: 667
Loc: Tacoma, Wa, USA
8,500 is a lot more than the 1,600 that WDFW expected. What gives there???? It's still B.S.

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#299256 - 05/02/05 04:24 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
STRIKE ZONE Offline
GOOD LUCK

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 12107
Loc: Hobart,Wa U.S.A
Boycott Neah Bay.Westport here I come.
Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

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#299257 - 05/02/05 04:28 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
Quotas only work if the numbers being caught are accurately reported.

Given the Makah’s honesty track record, I would like to see independent (non-tribal) observers, otherwise I wouldn't frankly trust the reported numbers.
:rolleyes:

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#299258 - 05/03/05 02:26 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Jaydee Offline
2010 SRC Champion!

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 1002
Loc: Paradise City!
With all due respect to SZ and others, I must disagree with any boycott of the community of Neah Bay. From my prespective, boycotting that community is basically boycotting the best sportfishing opportunity for small-boat anglers in Washington's saltwater.
Makah fisheries managers agreed to a model that was presented at the table last year. And their troll fleet exceeded that. Nothin' new, except that it made the media.
Now, there is a publicized guideline (8000-9000).
Fishinut pointed out, in another post, that salmon in our state are substantially commercially harvested by our neibors to the north. The Makah troll fleet numbers published in the paper are a drop in the bucket when compared. Ironic that some of the folks would rather spend their $ on that side of the border over a print in the paper when infact, that commercial fisherman to the north have a greater effect to our salmon return.
The Makah's are easy to blame. They wave a certain finger in everbody's face when they are captured in the media, and could care less what you and I think. They have an ideal location at a major intersection of salmon returns to this area. And those customers of the media are sensitive to that.
Some complain of the loss of two weeks in July in MA 9. It's a supposed coho fishery according to the previous regs. No doubt that there are more migrator chinook present at that time than migritory coho. Instead we get greater oppurtunity in MA 8-1/8-2 from Oct.-Apr., with a greater retention limit for unendangered chinook.
Everyone seems to generalize that the tribe is at fault. Do you think that the tribe wants the negative publicity that the '04 winter troll fishery has brought? No. Did the fisheries managers make a mistake there? Yes. And how are the being repremanded for it? 5 day a week sport season..?
Was the troll fleet given the opportunity and did they take it? Yes. Why did they take it? Because managers within and outside sat at that particular table and agreed on a season in 2004, not on a guidline/quota. Now that there is one, we can only guess as to the outcome.
Some good points were made in previous thread(s) concerning the winter Makah troll fishery. And the efforts of all who contributed words of disapproval did not go in vain. The [(F)Makahs] should not be generalized as a communtity of selfish pillagers. I have no problem if their fishery's managers are.
But again, they are a small drop in the bucket.
_________________________
RIP Tyler Greer. May Your seas be calm, and filled with "tig'ol'bings"!


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#299259 - 05/03/05 11:39 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Hoghunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 463
Jaydee, your entitled to your opinion. In my opinion Neah Bay is the Makah so any support that I give anywhere in that community in one way or another ends up in their pocket. It's not just about the Makahs to me. It's about the way the tribes continually wave their finger at all of us, take more fish and shellfish than they're supposed to and get away with it. Then when they exceed quotas it's the sportsmen who have to suffer and make up for their misdeeds. You mention the opening of Area 8-1 and 8-2 from Oct to Apr for marked fish. Yes this gives opportunity for winter fishing that hasn't existed to us for years. However you notice we didn't get Area 9 which is where 70 to 80% of the winter blackmouth come from in the North Sound. I've fished the north sound for 35 years and yes 8-1 and 8-2 can be good at times but the consistent producer is are 9. Even the bulk of the Everett charter boats fish in Area 9 because that's where the fish are. Here again it's like we're thrown a bone to keep us quiet while the tribes continue to do what they want. Enough is enough. My motto is boycott anything and anywhere that the tribes do business and that includes all their Nevada casino's that nobody but them can have.

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#299260 - 05/03/05 01:08 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
barnettm Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 622
Loc: Maple Valley, Wa.
i believe that we were successful in our efforts because the "managed as an open season with guidlines" got changed to "manage as a quota with not-to-exceed limits".

I would assume that if these limits are exceeded, then arrests would be made.

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#299261 - 05/03/05 02:08 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Spirit of the Eagle Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Vancouver Island British Colum...
Well I didn’t really want to get involved with this thread, however being a First Nations fishing guide I couldn't let uninformed people keep making comments about my brothers in Washington State. First of all it is a privilege that you can go fishing at all. Whereas, it is the born right of every Native to provide fish for his family and to make a moderate livelihood. For thousands of years the natives along the Pacific Coast have been fishing and managing the fish stocks. They took only what they needed for food and for barter with interior tribes who had more access to deer and other game. At the time of contact with Europeans the rivers and coastline were teaming with fish of all species. That was only 250 years or so ago. Since that time the Natives have watched all the fish stocks plummet from degradation of the ecosystems from pollution, logging, industry, and over fishing by commercial fisheries. Some of these stocks are now at serious risk of failing all together.

Now to understand the rational of the average native of today’s world... we have basically sat back for the last two hundred years or so and watched this happen to our fish stocks. I understand why some natives might be frustrated by watching people come into there traditional territory and continue on the legacy of fishing what they feel are their fish stocks. Now I don't and would never condone the tactics of slashing tires. I am after all a fisherman too and would hate to have tire issues on any fishing trip... I would give up my spare tire to anyone in need.

I started my career as a fishing guide when I was 18 yrs old. Even at that age I could easily see that I was catching too much fish for my own preference. So I wanted to spend time working on rehabilitating the stocks. I worked as a fisheries officer for 7 years stationed on a River that had a fish hatchery on it. I patrolled the river and helped to write management plans and harvest plans and I also enforced these plans, among other duties. I don't think that there is any doubt that the continuation of fish stocks is the most important agenda item for the First Nations of the coast. And for any fisherman for that matter.

Personally I think the wonders of the Pacific North West should be shared with people from all walks of life it is one of the most stunning places on earth. I certainly hope that my children will be able to experience everything that I have experienced with the Great Pacific Ocean as I am sure we all do. Instead of standing around pointing fingers and dishing out blame we all need to work together to not only find common ground but we need each other if we ever get serious about trying to rebuild these fish stocks.
_________________________
Cheers, tight lines.

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#299262 - 05/03/05 03:24 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Spirit of the Eagle - Welcome to this BB and thanks for the inspiring words.

However, you missed the point. Many of us who live in the PNW recognize the same problems that you have pointed out. Pollution, habitat loss, hydropower, etc have reeked havoc on Pacific salmon stocks over the past 200+ years. Many of us, including the tribes, have shouldered the burden of trying to reverse that trend. Sometimes with great sacrafice of time and resources ($$'s).

Given that the tribes have been the one who have pointed out these problems for years, many of us expect them to either help in our efforts to recover Pacific salmon (which they do) or at least not get in the way. That's why the Makah's large catch of Chinook salmon earlier this year hurts so much. Yes, there are other folks who share the blame (Alaska and BC) but two wrongs don't make a right.

It's unfortunate that some folks say nasty things about the Tribes when they disagree with the circumstances. You are right to defend your brothers in Neah Bay but let's face it, their actions have hurt some folks. I hope you can understand the reaction, although it's not always constructive.

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#299263 - 05/03/05 06:11 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
If you want to boycott Neah bay, knock yourself out. Its your money to spend as you choose.

If you do this to make a statement against overharvest of endangered chinook and then go to canada to chinook fish, then in my book you are a hypocrite. Sure the makahs overharvested but so do the Canadians. Overall canadian impacts are much larger than Chinook impacts on PS fish. Boycotting one but supporting the other seems hypocritical to me.
_________________________
Dig Deep!

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#299264 - 05/03/05 08:08 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Spirit of the Eagle Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Vancouver Island British Colum...
Well I admit I don't really understand the complete issue... I take it some people feel like the tribe over harvested a run of spring Salmon, which in turn affected sport fisherman’s ability to catch fish as well as possibly impacting the run itself. This is kind of what I gather, but I don't think I missed the point at all. People are trying to blame a group for practising their inherent right to harvest Salmon. The fact of the matter is these people should be able to harvest as much fish as they possibly need. Now whether that impacts other people or not it is their right.

You can't possibly blame the tribes for the pollution of the rivers, the loss of spawning beds due to urban development, mis-management by over harvesting by both the Canadian and US governments ect. Although they are the ones most greatly impacted by all of these things as they have watched their resources being depleted more and more by all user groups. But as soon as they go and fish it is all too easy to blame them for the decline in fish stocks. If I ever heard a case of a pot calling a kettle black this is it!!! You are totally correct in thinking that this isn’t a very constructive topic it may be already to late to save the wild salmon. More and more houses are being built inland... taking more and more away from the habitat. The habitat for salmon doesn't stop 50 yards on either side of the rivers. It takes a strong healthy forest to filter the rain water properly before it enters a stream which feeds a river. The rain isn't supposed to run off a farmer’s field laden with chemicals... or off of city highways and roads and into the streams. NVM the gautlet of commercial fishing gear they have to run along the coast from Alaska to Oregon.

The best story I've heard regarding a Natives place in the ecosystem of the PNW...there was an old Indian man fishing on a River... and a fisheries officer comes up to him and asks him to see his fishing licence. The old Native who had been fishing the same spot on the river since he was a little boy, before him his father, and his father before him, turned to the fisheries officer and asked him... Do you see that bear 200 feet downstream? (Up till now the fishery officer did not see the bear), but he says yes I do see it now. The old man says well my people have been here fishing alongside the bears since time began, perhaps you should go and ask him to see his fishing licence also...

"You can't blame a broken window on a little crack when someone has thrown a rock through it."
_________________________
Cheers, tight lines.

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#299265 - 05/03/05 08:20 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Hoghunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 463
Your right Geoduck it is my right to spend my money as I choose. Knock yourself out at Neah Bay. I'm not boycotting them just for this issue. I've been boycotting them for years as they've been doing this for years.
Spirit of the Eagle, in this state the tribes are allocated 50% for all harvestable salmon and shellfish. They're not entitled to one iota over that amount, yet they regularly take more than that amount.

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#299266 - 05/03/05 08:38 PM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Hoghunter:
Your right Geoduck it is my right to spend my money as I choose. Knock yourself out at Neah Bay. I'm not boycotting them just for this issue. I've been boycotting them for years as they've been doing this for years.
Spirit of the Eagle, in this state the tribes are allocated 50% for all harvestable salmon and shellfish. They're not entitled to one iota over that amount, yet they regularly take more than that amount.
If that were true, you might have a legitimate argument.

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#299267 - 05/04/05 01:16 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Spirit of the Eagle Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Vancouver Island British Colum...
50% !!! We don't get near that in Canada!! I'm curious are they selling these fish or fishing them for food?
_________________________
Cheers, tight lines.

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#299268 - 05/04/05 02:20 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Quote:
Originally posted by Spirit of the Eagle:
50% !!! We don't get near that in Canada!! I'm curious are they selling these fish or fishing them for food?
A moment of enlightenment! Welcome to our world, SOTE.

Yes, treaty tribes get one half of all harvestable fish resources in this state. It is their legal and binding right to do so. A relative handful of folks are entitled to half the fish resources, while the masses are left to divvy up the other half. On a per capita basis, you can see the tremendous allocation disparity of a "common" resource. Now you can see why non-treaty users get all bent out of shape when the treaty allocation is exceeded.

EDIT: And yes, they sell most of that harvest.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#299269 - 05/04/05 02:50 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1799
200 years ago everything in the whole world was different...

All humans have depended upon the fruits of the Earth for sustainance, whether they huddled in a temporary shelter on the banks of a creek full of salmon, or worked the land raising crops, or trapped for furs to trade, or hired themselves out as guides, or toiled away building goods for other humans to trade......................all humans put their pants on one leg at a time, and the natives need to get off their high horse and just maybe get a real job/life.

If you want to play cowboys and indians, then I guess we could just put a little thing called a TAX on everything you have to trade with, and put a little thing called a price hike on everthing that you can't find on the beach.

Like I said before, IF the natives want to live the traditional lifestyle of their ancestors, in a camp on the creek with no modern B.S., then I could respect that, but trying to tell me that they can live a modern trailer trash lifestyle, and claim ancestrial rights to all the crap in the treaties is a farce at best !

If changing the treaties means that Uncle Sam lied, well then boo hoo, you don't think Uncle Sam has lied to everyone else a time or two ?

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#299270 - 05/04/05 03:54 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Spirit of the Eagle Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Vancouver Island British Colum...
50 % seems fairly reasonable. If the Canadian Government would offer the tribes here 50% of the TAC I think a lot of tribes would be quite happy with that. It would bring in some extra income to mostly low-income families

I think the biggest mistaken conception is still that this is “common” fisheries that were talking about. At least here in Canada and I don't know if it is true in the US also that the access to Salmon has been set out by the Supreme Court of Canada (the highest court in our land) that the access to fish stocks are as follows:
1 Conservation
2 Native Food, Social, and Cerimonial fisheries.
3 Sporty's
4 Commercial

Here in Canada it is still up to debate how the treaty tribes are to be dealt with. I have a feeling that my cousins across the strait signed the same treaty as my own tribe, in which it states we are free to carry on our fisheries as formally. This means unlimited access to the resources second only to conservation. We here have never signed any agreements to diminish these rights, yet virtually no one practises these rights for fear of being subjected to prosecution. There has to be some common ground found for everyone’s sake and especially for the sake of our fish stocks. And that actually brings up a bigger question..?

Time for a brief editorial...lol
There is obviously a growing demand for fish as all of our population grows. So the obvious thing to me would be why not make more fish. With the technology available today it would be no problem for us to pump up production of almost all species of shellfish and finfish. However, I feel it is actually the Commercial industry that is somewhat responsible... here is my theory... If we had say 1 million fish returning to every river and creek... I mean wall to wall fish... and commercial fisherman were called in to catch them because there were just too many fish...What do you think that would do to the price of fish on the open market. A backlog of fish would definitely mean lower market prices. I feel that the management of our fish stocks is based a large part on market driven morals. And both the natives and the Sporty’s are caught somewhere in the midst.

Let me just end my discussion on this topic. There is no easy solution to the problems we all face with our stocks. Maybe eventually we will all find a way to work together to find solutions to the many complex issues that surround our fisheries, but I hope it doesn’t take the total collapse of fish stocks to do it.

“I bet it’s a tough life being a fish”
_________________________
Cheers, tight lines.

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#299271 - 05/04/05 04:24 AM Re: Makahs have not-to-exceed quota this year
Spirit of the Eagle Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Vancouver Island British Colum...
Quote:
Originally posted by Oregonian:

the natives need to get off their high horse and just maybe get a real job/life.

If you want to play cowboys and indians, then I guess we could just put a little thing called a TAX on everything you have to trade with, and put a little thing called a price hike on everthing that you can't find on the beach.

Like I said before, IF the natives want to live the traditional lifestyle of their ancestors, in a camp on the creek with no modern B.S., then I could respect that, but trying to tell me that they can live a modern trailer trash lifestyle, and claim ancestrial rights to all the crap in the treaties is a farce at best !

If changing the treaties means that Uncle Sam lied, well then boo hoo
LMAO...Is this even worth a reply...I mean really what ru like 12?
Time to grow up and take on some resposibliity for being part of the major cause of the problem.
_________________________
Cheers, tight lines.

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