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#306644 - 07/19/05 10:29 PM Snoqualmie R.
Yakutat Jack Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 175
well, been flogging the snoqualmie from plums to the falls...nuttin'. Seen a few roll here and there but no takers on my BC Steel or small jigs. Anybody doin' any better?

How is the Sky putting out if at all?

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#306645 - 07/19/05 10:45 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3113
Loc: Bothell, Wa
I've floated the Sky from Sultan to BH three times since the opener and haven't touched a thing. I've seen more deer then metal. Pretty darn slow \:\(
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"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#306646 - 07/19/05 11:57 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Gonefishing Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 22
Loc: Redmond, WA
Hit the Sky yesterday 7/18 did a lot of walking, threw a lot of stuff, one hit on a blue fox in the deepest pool I could find and not a thing else all day. Talked to one other fisherman just upriver of the Wallace, he said nothing even rolling in the hole at the mouth.

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#306647 - 07/20/05 09:40 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
CraigO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/30/02
Posts: 1409
Loc: Lake Stevens
I fished the upper sky two weeks ago with only one Dolly. Including us there were 5 Drift boats a 2 man pontoon and 2 single pontoons. Only that Dolly and a small Jack for all fisherman.
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#306648 - 07/20/05 10:34 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Yakutat Jack Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 175
...does this mean we all have to wait for the Reiter opener turkey shoot on Aug 1? Hope not.

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#306649 - 07/20/05 02:26 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
supcoop Offline
Lady Killer Deluxe

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 1132
Loc: Kirkland
reiter on aug 1... you done lost your mind! No way reiter will be opneing on time

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#306650 - 07/20/05 04:41 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Ron Bob Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/24/99
Posts: 343
Loc: Carnation, wa
whats going on? this is another year where the fishung sucks on these rivers. year after year it gets worse and worse. It's time that our game dept wises up and realizes what they are doing is not working.

Last month I was on the Kalama, the river was alive with creatures everthing from smolts to hellgramites. Today on the snocrummy I floated from FC to Reichters. nadda no smolts no steelhead and very damn few suckers and white fish. It almost looks dead.

10 years ago when they decided to spray that 2nd stage sewage on all the hills around the valley for timber production really wasn't very good to the river. We can thank the city of seattle, game dept, wyerhouser and the u dub for that one. It was classified as a study so no EIS was required. Not to mention all the golf courses and new homes in this area as well.

Sorry for the rant

I've been living and fishing the Snocrummy for 45 yrs and I just hate to see it go.

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#306651 - 07/20/05 09:06 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3113
Loc: Bothell, Wa
Only 63 fish have returned to Reiter thus far so don't expect to be claiming a rock anytime soon.

The hatchery program on the Sky is a joke. They not only don't seem very good at raising steelhead but those that do return seem to return only during a two day high water event. They also don't bite very well until after they have spawned wich seems to be within a couple of days of being in fresh water. Over the last several years my wild v hatchery catch ratio is about 10 to 1. Of course I'm not one to claim a rock during the one week hatchery run!

Although small the wild run seems to be holding steady on the Sno system. I think this is where the efforts should be aimed. I would rather have ten fresh wild fish in the river most days of the year than a week of 10 brat days every Dec.

There are a few things that I think would help.

Wild Sky needs to become law in order to preserve the headwaters of the Sky. http://www.house.gov/inslee/issues/environment/wildsky.html

The hatcheries should be used only for the propagation of wild fish ala Snider Cr.

The whole system should be open for catch and release every day of the year.

I've seen lean years before and am hopeful things will improve!
_________________________
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#306652 - 07/20/05 09:45 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
bank walker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/26/99
Posts: 771
The Sky is indeed going through some leen times for Steelhead. Ive only fished it three days since june 1 and found a fish everyday but it consisted of long hours of flogging every drift i knew. My buddies that fish it everyday tell me things are really tough now. There are a few fish behind the usual rocks, not many

I agree with Brood. I could care less about the winter hatchery pukes. They shoot through to Reiter in 4 days, leaving 40 miles of beautiful water nearly void. The Nates need full protection and habitat enhancment in certain spawning areas. I landed my two biggest steelhead in Feb this year.

Steelhead with shoulders rock

Problem is; without Reiter the river would be shutdown even to CNR...
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"I have a fair idea of what to expect from the river, and usually, because I fish it that way, the river gives me approximately what I expect of it. But sooner or later something always comes up to change the set of my ways..."
- Roderick Haig-Brown

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#306653 - 07/21/05 12:39 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Points to ponder:

1. In order to have above average return years like the last couple, you have to have below average years. Maybe it's reality that sucks.

2. The Sky has the highest hatchery smolt to adult return rate of Puget Sound steelhead streams according to WDFW. So yeah, reliance on hatcheries is a crutch, but what do you expect when we extend more lip service than action to habitat protection?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#306654 - 07/21/05 01:53 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
dizzy fisherman Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 109
Loc: Oregon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Salmo g.:
[QB] Points to ponder:

2. The Sky has the highest hatchery smolt to adult return rate of Puget Sound steelhead streams according to WDFW. So yeah, reliance on hatcheries is a crutch, but what do you expect when we extend more lip service than action to habitat protection?


If this is true than the other Puget Sound rivers must really suck. Since I've lived in Washington which has been 4 years now, the Skykomish has been added to my list of one of the worst rivers I've ever fished. Granted it has it's moments, but it's usually only good for one day, like when Reiter opens. I think the WDFW has really let this river go to hell in a hand basket, which is a real shame.

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#306655 - 07/21/05 11:57 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Dizzy,

Sorry about putting you on the spot, since you've lived in WA only 4 years, but please tell me exactly what WDFW has done, or not done, that has let this river system go to hell in a hand basket.

The Snohomish system has among the healthiest wild coho, pink, and chum salmon populations anywhere in the state. All Puget Sound steelhead populations, hatchery and wild, have been in the bucket the last few years, and the proximate cause appears to be something in the marine environment that WDFW nor any other natural resource government agency controls. So for clarity's sake, please advise what WDFW's doing wrong, as I know people there who can change things.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#306656 - 07/21/05 12:40 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
lupo Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1571
Loc: seattle wa
salmo- i respect your wealth of scientific knowledge and have learned alot from the info you have brought to the board , however; i must ask---why do you keep saying that we need to have below average years to have above average years? its a statement that is so true that it is absolutely useless! thats just the definition of an average isnt it?

isnt that analagouse to a politician saying "im tired of half the population living under the median income" thats what a median is the halfway point

we have averages that are moving towards ZERO!!!!! who cares if you have above average years and below average years- you will have that with any arithmetic mean with any polulation of anything!!!! your only repeating the definition of an average.

when the average is two fish per year returning and an above average year is three fish and below average year is one fish will you guys still be saying the same thing? the statement will be no less true than it is today.

a cantinued reliance on hatcheries with no attempt at controlling the commercials and environment is like picking cocaine out of the carpet......it may make you feel better for the next ten minutes but it does nothing to solve the real issue which is overdependance and dwindling supply
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#306657 - 07/21/05 05:29 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Lupo,

Yes, my statement was of the obvious. But I make it because so many anglers don’t seem to get it. For example, we have two above average returns like the last two on the Sky, or the last three on the NFL and Cowlitz. Next thing ya’ know, that becomes the bar that fishermen expect to see, and when we get a below average year like this summer, suddenly WDFW doesn’t know how to manage the fishery. It’s no secret that I’m happy to criticize any agency (including my own) and any party for what they actually do, however, it’s just plain stupid to think, let alone expect, well above average run sizes each and every year - because then they wouldn’t be average for one thing. The average would be at a new and higher level. Not that that’s a bad thing, if it’s actually sustainable. But it generally isn’t.

Sorry if the term about above and below average is over-worked for you, but a lot of posters here clearly don’t understand this, and it’s evident from what they write. That’s the simple reason for my stating and re-stating here from time to time.

Yes, we have some averages that are moving toward zero. In Puget Sound those appear to be wild chinook and steelhead. It does not include wild pink and chum salmon or any hatchery population that I’m presently aware of. In fact, some of those wild pink and chum populations are very near historic known highs. Some PS coho are in really good shape, like the Snoho, and some, especially in south Sound, and not so good. And the condition of the habitat tends to show the reason why.

Also to reiterate for the nigh-on-umpteenth time, fishery agencies have very little influence on the condition of the habitat. The things that affect habitat are mostly regulated, or not regulated, as the case may be, by DOE, DNR, WSDOT, and county planning depts. and Commissioners. And for every fish friendly action they cause, they also approve 9 or 10 unfriendly ones. Which is why some wild fish populations are heading toward an average run size of zero.

I’ll be sure to say that the average has gone to hell well before the 10 year average return of any population reaches two fish.

Not to defend WDFW on this, but I’m still waiting to hear what WDFW did wrong to cause this poor return of Snoho summer steelhead, which BTW, there weren’t a heck of a lot of prior to the Reiter program that began in 1974, first returns in 1976.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#306658 - 07/21/05 06:05 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
"Snoho summer steelhead, which BTW, there weren’t a heck of a lot of prior to the Reiter program that began in 1974, first returns in 1976"

Wanna bet. as a kid I used to fish the summer run all the way up from Index to monte Cristo and from index to the falls. Seemed like they where behind every rock. I remember the first one I ever hooked. I cast my single 3 natual colored Pautzke salmon eggs to the opposite bank where a big rock set up a nice eddy with a big log providing cover for the hole. I had been catching cutts all day and had set my drag a little tighter on the Johnson Century reel. A big summer run that my dad later estimated at 15lbs + grabbed my bait and head back under the log to deep water. My dad yelled loosen the drag . I was trying to loosen the drag as the fish bent my rod nearly double. I was using 8 lb test as we always did and when the fish took off out of the eddy down stream with a couple of head shakes and a snap of the line . The fish did not stay hooked but I did. Almost no one fished for them back then. It was the Summer of 1966 and I was 8 years old.
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#306660 - 07/21/05 08:17 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
dizzy fisherman Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 109
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
Originally posted by Salmo g.:
Dizzy,

Sorry about putting you on the spot, since you've lived in WA only 4 years, but please tell me exactly what WDFW has done, or not done, that has let this river system go to hell in a hand basket.

The Snohomish system has among the healthiest wild coho, pink, and chum salmon populations anywhere in the state. All Puget Sound steelhead populations, hatchery and wild, have been in the bucket the last few years, and the proximate cause appears to be something in the marine environment that WDFW nor any other natural resource government agency controls. So for clarity's sake, please advise what WDFW's doing wrong, as I know people there who can change things.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.
I'm not talking about the salmon I'm talking about the steelhead. How can you narrow it down to poor ocean conditions. It seems like that is everyone's default answer. When I lived in Oregon I fished rivers with the same characteristics as the Skykomish and the numbers were always there. I have many friends that guide in Oregon and they seem to be doing fairly well. The fish that return to Oregon migrate out to the same ocean that the steelhead returning to Washington rivers migrate to.

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#306661 - 07/22/05 11:39 AM Re: Snoqualmie R.
centerpin Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/24/00
Posts: 381
Loc: The Terrace
I to have fished the Sky sense the 70s . I think that we are having a low return year.

To slander the river or the game dept shows ones lack of understanding of the fishery and the surrounding environment.

The Sky has always been a popular river,now the Sky valley is popular place to live.With all the new housing,and all the new people that live in the valley ,coupled with a low water summer,You have to expect some impact on the fishery.
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#306662 - 07/22/05 12:41 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
TK,

Sure, I’d take the bet, but what is being bet on is unverifiable, and therefore not suitable for betting.

Relative to the summer steelhead returns since Reiter began returning adults in 1976, native summer steelhead returns to the NF Sky and the Tolt in the Snoq were necessarily small in number by virtue of the relatively small amount of habitat available to produce them. The fact that you hooked one in 1966 is indicative of a fish you hooked, but not the runsize. You may not recall, but the WA state human population was about 1/3 of what it is today in 1966, and far fewer people were fishing for anything, summer steelhead included. It didn’t take much of a run to provide good fishing for the smaller angling populations that existed then.

Not that it matters, but Puget Sound native summer steelhead are predominately one salt fish, with large fish being rare. Thousands of native Deer Creek steelhead were caught and recorded over the years from the NF Stilly, and they rarely topped 14 pounds, which is not to say that none did.

Further, that would have been quite a run from Index to Monte Cristo, seeing how Index is on the lower NF Sky and Monte Cristo is on the SF Sauk. A mountain pass separates those locations, and it isn’t and wasn’t inhabited by steelhead. Enos Bradner described the NF Sky native summer run in his book from the 1950s. I don’t recall the title at the moment, sorry to say. Maybe it was “The Inside on the Outdoors”

Dizzy,

OK, let’s talk about the steelhead then. Biologists have narrowed it down to something in the marine conditions because the usual culprits of freshwater floods and droughts were isolated from the rest of the data. The upshot is that even with good spawning escapements and good freshwater rearing conditions and good smolt production from the systems where that can be estimated or counted, the recruits per spawner has averaged less than one, meaning the populations are barely replacing themselves. (If that isn’t complicated enough, wild winter runs are surviving at a lower rate than wild summer runs lately.) If it isn’t a freshwater factor, it must be a marine factor, but we don’t know what marine factor. Additionally, low returns are occurring among hatchery runs as well, which are not subject the same freshwater limitations as wild fish. But hatchery fish are subject to the same marine factors as wild fish. This isn’t simply default; it’s strong inferential evidence of a marine factor limitation.

All steelhead migrate into the same Pacific Ocean, but they don’t all migrate to the same places in that ocean. Not all areas of the ocean are equally productive at any given time. The current depressed steelhead runs are those originating in Puget Sound and British Columbia as far up as the north end of Vancouver Island. Steelhead populations north of there and from the WA coast and south, including those you refer to in Oregon, are not experiencing this effect. Something along the migration route taken by Puget Sound and lower BC steelhead is impacting survival.

You still haven’t explained what WDFW is doing wrong. Like I said, I know people there who can change things, but they need relevant information to make intelligent changes.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#306663 - 07/22/05 01:01 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: The right side of the line
SG,

There was a Marioposite mine just above Troublesome called Monte Critso. Only old timers would know about it . It marked the uppermost reaches of where you would find steelhead. I have seen salmon up further towards Bear falls. Bit of a test there. I spent equal time if not more on the Stilly from GF to Verlot. Lots of summer runs there as well.
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#306664 - 07/22/05 04:03 PM Re: Snoqualmie R.
dizzy fisherman Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 109
Loc: Oregon
Salmo g.

I think that your statement "the steelhead don't all migrate to the same places once in the ocean" is a poor excuse.
The fish go where the the food is. So my arguement was that if the fish are returning to Oregon rivers, but not to Puget Sound rivers than I believe the problem to be something other than "poor marine conditions". If it was poor marine conditions than wouldn't the Coho, Chum, and Pink salmon runs be impacted too? I don't see as big of an impact on the Salmon (excluding chinook) returning to the Puget Sound rivers as I do the steelhead.

I can't tell you exactly what the WDFW is doing wrong but I can tell you that they could do more. For example; they could close Reiter Ponds for awhile. They could place some logs/boulders in the river where the water gets especially low in the summertime. They could see about planting more trees along the banks to control water temperature, and create ideal holding areas. I don't think any of these ideas are currently being done. I'm not rambling on because I like to complain. I just love to fish and I hate to see the steelhead in trouble on a rive that has so much potential.

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