#391042 - 11/25/07 04:58 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: Achmed]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1420
Loc: Puyallup, WA
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Blue Jay, to say that I disagree is an understatement. However, you know the arguements on my side, I won't bore anybody with that.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"
R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
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#391046 - 11/25/07 05:24 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: blue_jay]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2810
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Well I guess I will put my 2 cents in. Coming from the perspective of the conservative point of view. Feel free to voice your freedom of speech afterwards as you prolly will.
Anti-war protestors have the God given right to say anything they want to and do anything they want to as long as they aren't breaking the law. People need to respect the opinions of others and be able to deal with it. Not everyone is going to agree with what they say or do. From what I gathered from the news there was just a small group of people that were causing the problem and they were dealt with. They got what they asked for and some of them got away with felonies. Some of them got away without being bothered by child protective services - which should have been there to intervene, but didn't when stupid parent put their children in harms way.
I know alot of you guys on this board are liberal, which is fine. I respect your opinions. Coming from the other side of the coin I feel the war was right and justified. MY opinion comes based on the fact that we live in a world where modern technology has given people the ability to kill whom have wanted to hurt us and anyone whom doesn't believe in their religion should die. They have been lingering there for thousands of years waiting to force their religion upon us and to kill those who don't believe.
I have a good Iraqi friend who left Baghdad and was sent to southeast Asia. He was part of the elite Iraqi guard before the first gulf war. He is a scientist and doctor by profession no longer practicing but working in the automotive business and living here in the United States. He had a very large family in Iraq when he left. They are no longer alive. The reason he was sent to southest Asia was part of Saddam's Jihad to develope biological weapons to poison crops and fields that would be exported to the United States for consumption such as rice. After he refused to do so and sought refuge and came to the United States his entire family and extended family - hundreds of people were executed. Some of the people in his family were Kurds in northern Iraq that survied being gased by their own country in the late 80's. Again that was before the first Gulf war. Saddam's plans according to him were on a much grander scale for the future. He was planning to take over the middle-east, put a choke hold on the United States and it's Allies by cutting oil supply making them beg for mercy and accept islam because he knew politics and environmentalist in the United States would keep us from refining oil rich sections of the United States such as Anwar and making more oil refineries which we haven't done in 25+ years. If accepting Islam after a huge gasoline crisis wasn't the answer, he had planned on using his neighboring country's nuclear weapons to remove those that don't.
After coming here to the United States and seeing all the wonderful things our country had to offer him that he had heard about you couldn't find a more patriotic person as him. He is now a citizen and teaches people to find peace in Islam here.
Now all you liberals are going to argue there was never any chemical weapons they found which is fine, they never did. But that still doesn't erase the fact they did have A LOT and used them against their own people and Iran prior to the wars. IT still doesn't erase the fact that Iraq had the Osiraq reactor that they tried to purchase and did purchase equipment from France to process that material into weapons grade which thankfully Isreal took care of by bombing it and later the United States by destroying it during the gulf wars. IT still doesn't erase the fact that Saddam had much larger plans and he would have followed through on them by now if our coalition didn't prevent them. Now I know you all you liberals are going to argue the reasons for which lead up to our last invasion were bogus and lies. Intelligence whether it was good or when it actually turned out bad from our country and many other countrys intelligence communities is either here nor there and doesn't erase the fact Saddam violated a decades plus worth of sanctions - The real true reason why we went there. Everyone has forgotten because of our leftist media and its controlling interest groups pushing the George Soros type mentality has warped reality of the matter blaming it solely upon The Bush Administration for lack thereof finding WMDs. Well atleast half of our country has forgotten.
No one likes war. But when it comes to preserving and protecting our freedom, it's justifiable.
Has everyone forgotten the lessons of 911? The lesson will be re-educated to the non-believers when we drop our guard. Thank god we have many upon thousands of people protecting us, monitoring, watching and preventing things like that from going on.
Just my 2 cents. When did Ahmed Chalabi get into the automotive business? Careful not to take any personal checks from that guy. And make sure you don't pay him until after he's fixed your chevy.
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#391067 - 11/25/07 07:57 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: VHawk.]
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Spawner
Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 903
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BJ, I don’t consider myself a liberal. People who disagree with the war are not liberal as much as you would like to disregard them as so.
911 was an emotional time for our Country. I watched Hillary at congress, she looked in shock. She voted for the war but considering New York is her state, I don’t fault her that, especially since her husband was pres so she believed what Bush said.
To me it seemed that Sadam had no means of intercontinental missiles. Milosevic’s weapons were interceded & accounted for thru NATO by Gen Clark, without loss of life btw. I figured Sadam was pursuing them but couldn't figure how he could have acquired them. What we were led to believe was that he got Plutonium from Africa?
You must be talking about the import of weapons – so wouldn’t that be an at home security issue? Our troops needed here to protect us in that case. Instead we go to Iraq, to do what? So how long do you think we should we stay, until we bring them around to our way of thinking? Do you REALLY see that happening?
911 commission said Sadam had nothing to do with 911. I remember C. Rice being drilled about a pre 911 memo that stated the hijacking of planes etc. She was asked what Bush said, - He said he was tired of swatting flies. The commissioner asking the question jumped out of his seat and asked, just what flies was he swatting before 911? That comment -cowboy, bring it on, America answers to no one, playing bully with our country, our security, and our lives.
But this thread is about the protestors, so I will add this, the misguided youth provided action without thought, and apparently most prefer thought without action. Except of course the…………never mind, I better stop here due to our new lack of civil liberties and all.
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#391087 - 11/25/07 11:06 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: blue water pro]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 456
Loc: LOL
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911 didn't have anything to do with Saddam. Bill and Hillary were beating the war drums long before 911 ever happened. Bill had 9 to 10 chances to take out OBL and messed those up himself. Hillary didn't have to believe what Bush said prior to the vote to go to war, she made her own determination based on the same intelligence Bush had as so did congress. She said it herself. You've got to remember opportunist are given some sort of pass in this country to change their minds at any given momment so long as it suits their political purpose. You're right about not everyone agreeing with the war, they're not always liberals. I don't think half the population of this country is Republican that agrees with it as well. Well maybe something like 30 odd percent consider themselves conservative or Republican according to 2004 election stats. You'd think by now if the majority of the country thought it was wrong they would have made congress do something about it. The same do nothing congress were talking about with single digit approval. Of course the President himself with a stellar upper 20 low to high 30 depending on the breeze looks like a phenom compared to those clowns. As for the protestors I'm sure they had plenty of time to think about what they were going to do on the drive from Federal Way to Tacoma. 
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#391089 - 11/25/07 11:35 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: blue_jay]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2810
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Come on Blue Jay, give me another bedtime story. Tell me again about how Saddam was going to take over the Middle East, or tell me about the increased freedom I have now that Bush is president. My other favorite bed time story is how we went to war because of violations of UN sanctions. That one puts me right to sleep.
But not the same way the citizens of Darfur sleep. Or the way the misidentified "John Doe Muhammed's" sleep, locked away in secret gulag's without benefit of trial. Or the way the Bill of Rights sleeps now that we have Dubya protecting us. We can all sleep well, after all his intentions are good.
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." Daniel Webster
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#391099 - 11/26/07 02:55 AM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: VHawk.]
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Spawner
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 668
Loc: Olympia
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" But not the same way the citizens of Darfur sleep. Or the way the misidentified "John Doe Muhammed's" sleep, locked away in secret gulag's without benefit of trial. Or the way the Bill of Rights sleeps now that we have Dubya protecting us. We can all sleep well, after all his intentions are good."
As I've said before, we were wrong to invade Iraq before trying to work with sanctions and diplomacy. At least we could have come into the country and cleaned house (with the full UN support) when he actually had his WMD programs up and running so we didn't look like complete imperialist jackasses.
As far as our being at fault for the mess in Sudan, this is not primarily our problem. the only difference between that country and all the other brutal regimes engaging in warfare in Africa, as we all know, is oil of course. Let Europe settle it.
Some people would like to believe that the Imperialist US is the root of all evil. Lets work on getting this regime out of office and get a moderate in there, I dont care from which party at this point.
Does anyone think we should provide military intervention in Sudan? That's the last thing we need. So far all we have done is supply non-weapons equipment to the side we like and 300 million in humanitarian aid. You know that place has a bunch of oil (which still makes the wheels go round and round)
I agree that prisoners detained by the US should get trials and a chance to prove they are not terrorists.
Since I'm one of those guys that deals with the rights of citizens on a daily basis.. rest assured that unless you are a terrorist and the feds are looking for you, you are safe in this state. Our BAR associaton likes to brag that this state offers everyone protection against guys like me.
Finally, I am very lucky in that I know many people who have served/worked in Iraq. I am also lucky that my work has sent me to a lot of training in this area, to include seminars led by international experts.
Here is a run down on one I went to hosted by CNN (not exactly a right wing news group)
1) The US should get out of Iraq soon and let the Iraqis control it however they need to and quit whining about being too rough. And, start a meaningful dialogue with Arab countries.
2) Part of that is to withdraw direct support from Israel, this is pissing off everyone there, The Israelis can take care of themselves. Although it should be noted that we have been a moderating influence on their harsher policies towards their Arab neighbors.
3) Quit running around the world trying to control everything. Just work on trade and good stuff. Except we might have to wack a few dictators here and there who threaten that.
There, from someone who is definitely less than a genius, and knows there is a lot more to these issues that we will ever be aware of, is something that one doesn't hear very often from either side. A solution.
I think it's great that more Americans think globally. I remember a very drunk Irish woman I talked to once during a domestic. In a brief moment of lucidity, she looked right at me and said "you Americans are so full o' yerselfs."
She was right, I think.
I am an independent.
_________________________
"I'm old and tough, dirty and rough" -Barnacle Bill the sailor
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#391102 - 11/26/07 05:43 AM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: goinfishin]
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Carcass
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 2420
Loc: zipper
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so we didn't look like complete imperialist jackasses.
Let Europe settle it. I wonder why Dumbya didn't think of that.
_________________________
... We do not inherit the land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
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#391174 - 11/26/07 11:03 AM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: goinfishin]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2810
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GoingFishin, Does anyone think we should provide military intervention in Sudan? That's the last thing we need. It is a notable inconsistency in the right wing argument that we went into Iraq to remove a brutal dictator, but we do so very little to stop a genocidal regime in Sudan. That is why I pointed it out. There is a strong fact based rebuttal for every excuse given for why we went into Iraq. Whether we should go into Sudan is immaterial at this point. We don't have the resources to continue with the obligations we already have. Blue Jay, I'm ready for another fairy tale. Tell me again how Saddam was going to force Islam on America by choking our oil supply. Is there an ogre named Shrek in that one? Leave the lights on when you tell it, it's really really scary. He was planning to take over the middle-east, put a choke hold on the United States and it's Allies by cutting oil supply making them beg for mercy and accept islam because he knew politics and environmentalist in the United States would keep us from refining oil rich sections of the United States such as Anwar and making more oil refineries which we haven't done in 25+ years. If accepting Islam after a huge gasoline crisis wasn't the answer, he had planned on using his neighboring country's nuclear weapons to remove those that don't.
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#391188 - 11/26/07 11:42 AM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: VHawk.]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 10247
Loc: Harstine Island
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He was planning to take over the middle-east, put a choke hold on the United States and it's Allies by cutting oil supply making them beg for mercy and accept islam Saddam didn't give a crap about Islam. He tightly controled the religious leaders in Iraq because he was smart enough to know they were a threat. The last thing he wanted was to spread Islam anywhere. Oh, and he never had, I repeat, never had the means to take over the middle east. With all his weapons at his peak, he couldn't even take Iran. After we destroyed most of his hardware, munitions and chemicals, he couldn't take jack. LOL!
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#391207 - 11/26/07 12:08 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: AuntyM]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 1966
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
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The political view that Blue Jay presents here is IMO, undenyable proof of the power of right-wing talk radio to cloud the sensibilities of an otherwise moderately intelligent, reasonable individual. Assuming of course that the individual is pre-disposed to posessing the 3 core values of modern conservatism, fear, hatred and intolerance... which it would appear that Blue Jay indeed does... in abundance. Hell... just go down the list of points he's tryin' to make... it reads like a page outta the Limbaugh letter or the official RNC talking points bulletin! It's weird too? For a guy that does so much laughing out loud? 
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...
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#391218 - 11/26/07 12:21 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: 4Salt]
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Spawner
Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 838
Loc: allupinyou
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That Koolaid is some good [censored]....LOL????
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I got a rocket in my pocket!!
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#391227 - 11/26/07 12:52 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: avid angler]
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Carcass
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 2420
Loc: zipper
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I hear what you're seein' dude. I'm lol'ing on the outside and col'ing (crying out loud) on the inside.
_________________________
... We do not inherit the land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
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#391271 - 11/26/07 02:39 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: VHawk.]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 456
Loc: LOL
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Come on Blue Jay, give me another bedtime story. Tell me again about how Saddam was going to take over the Middle East, or tell me about the increased freedom I have now that Bush is president. My other favorite bed time story is how we went to war because of violations of UN sanctions. That one puts me right to sleep.
But not the same way the citizens of Darfur sleep. Or the way the misidentified "John Doe Muhammed's" sleep, locked away in secret gulag's without benefit of trial. Or the way the Bill of Rights sleeps now that we have Dubya protecting us. We can all sleep well, after all his intentions are good.
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." Daniel Webster
Its not my fault your side trys to minimize serious violations of International law and squander it away by munipulating the reality of the situation via the Clinton News Network and MSLSD. The media has always been a great source of the ol' smoke and mirrors show. I'm thinking you also would sleep right through Iran using a nuclear weapon on Isreal. Yeah those gas prices at the pump at $6/gal would put you right to sleep. Oh you must row to work right living down near the skok. my bad. I wonder how many other countrys around the world have used secret prisons that give their prisoners of war the same rights as their citizens....hmmmm lol ahhhh yesss, getting very beddy sleepy now...naptime....yawnnn!
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#391273 - 11/26/07 02:45 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: blue_jay]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 2927
Loc: Togiak River, Alaska.
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Oh you must row to work right living down near the skok. my bad. Dude, what is that supposed to mean? Are you, of all people, judging somebody elses fishing practices?...Later Jake
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#391287 - 11/26/07 03:08 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: 4Salt]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 456
Loc: LOL
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The political view that Blue Jay presents here is IMO, undenyable proof of the power of right-wing talk radio to cloud the sensibilities of an otherwise moderately intelligent, reasonable individual. Assuming of course that the individual is pre-disposed to posessing the 3 core values of modern conservatism, fear, hatred and intolerance... which it would appear that Blue Jay indeed does... in abundance. Hell... just go down the list of points he's tryin' to make... it reads like a page outta the Limbaugh letter or the official RNC talking points bulletin! It's weird too? For a guy that does so much laughing out loud? IF that were the case then 50% of this country must listen to talk radio and let radio develope, shape and mold them into right wing zombie huh? While the other half watch Katie Couric and Keith Olbermann but thats far from reality. Katie Couric will be lucky she ends up on the home shopping network next time. What is it about the left that thinks the right is all about fear, hatred and intolerance. Intolerance to raising taxes, Fear another Clinton might let another 911 happen maybe. But hatred I just don't get. I can LOL anytime I want to. I take politics with a grain of sand. But I love to argue with the leftards. Hurt me baby!
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#391289 - 11/26/07 03:10 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: Abu-Loomis]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 456
Loc: LOL
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Oh you must row to work right living down near the skok. my bad. Dude, what is that supposed to mean? Are you, of all people, judging somebody elses fishing practices?...Later Jake No just a reference to flooding. I'd fish in my front yard too if I could.
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#391291 - 11/26/07 03:13 PM
Re: Oly Port protests
[Re: blue_jay]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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Let's hear your take on fiscal conservatism and how it relates to the republican party these days. Seriously..
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