http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/348420_false23.html

A drop in the bucket for this admin.

douglas who?

stlhead,

You'll find that Republicans and their ball-washing apologists, also known as the "Party of Integrity, Party of Law and Order, and Party of the Religious Fundamentalists" don't mind lying one bit, so long as it is their guys doing it.

That anyone would find that surprising is the only truly surprising part.

Fish on...

Todd

There he is...BJ sure snapped at that lure but it's like reeling in an old shoe.

IF this adminstration has 935 false statements over the course of 8 years, then Hillary can place a small 2 just to the upper right of that number in her case of false statements in the last 4.

I was couting in my head...10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1...

Boot-Jay blamed it on the Clintons before I made it to "4".

Fish on...

Todd

I didn't know leftards could count backwards.

That sure is a good come back...yer a real smart one, ain'tcha?

Let's hear it, BoobJay...how do you feel about the party of Law and Order...not to mention, Integrity and Honor, being a bunch of liars? I'd think that a big supporter like you would be pretty pissed that all those lying bassturds have taken over your party...

Or do you not mind?

Fish on...

Todd

Boot Jay didn't hear any lies because GW was whispering sweet nothings in his ear while sticking him in the ass for the last 8 years.

And Boot Jay liked it.

Here we go again!

The sad and unfortunate fact is that there is only one actual limit on the amount of known lies by this Administration...and not surprisingly, that limit is not "Law, Order, Integrity, Honesty, or Honor"...it's the fact that this Administration, besides being the most dishonest in American history, is also the most secretive...if all the secret lies out there ever come out, it will be even more astounding, if possible, how flat out un-American this Administration has been, is, and will continue to be for another year.

Fish on...

Todd

We have lost more rights in the past seven years than in the previous 224 years. Neocons worry about their right to bear automatic assault rifles but don't think a thing about loosing their privacy. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING and he is a republican.

I could give a crap less what you think about my party Todd. It's always been about the concept it's built around. It's not like they are all evil war mongering capitolist pigs running around terrorizing the world. There are a few good ones left. I guess you have all the answers and solutions to the worlds problems. Why don't you go wave some american flags up some creeks over in Afghanistan and show the Taliban how to catch fish on some pink worms. I'm almost 110% positive they might have a bowl of green ready to go for ya.

Ok, Blow_Job, name one.

And that concept you speak of has long since been abandoned for their private personal gain and war profiteering.

Name me one major candidate in either party that isn't full of $hit.

All you guys kill me, internet chest pounding.

BootJay, among a plethora (look it up) of ridiculous posts coming out of you, that last one shows just what an ignorant jackass you really are.

If this is YOUR Republican Party, then you really are a fascist pig. Real Republicans have ditched these lying, cheating, war mongering idiots long ago...there is nothing conservative or traditional Republican left in the "republican" party. The only thing remotely "Republican" left is Ron Paul, and he couldn't even get a job washing the $hitter at the RNC now.

If it's "yours", then you can have it...

Fish on...

Todd

I am waiting for someone to enlighten us on the virtues of the Democratic party.

Well Todd....Here's your chance.

Blue_Jay.....you should just go fishing and stay out of politics.

Seems like you are actually more NEGATIVE to me...

Anyone ready to hear the virtues of the Libertarian Party yet?

Bingo. Both parties are the same. Try to buy as many votes as possible and then work to get re-elected during their entire term doing absolutely zero good for the public.

But, I do think folks on both side of the political fence have a legitimate right and duty to question the current administration.

I 100% agree. People should always feel free to question ANY administration.

Sadly, some administrations just make it easier and more entertaining then others.

Todd,
I notice you ignored the post by hankster. I had questions about Iraq before we went in, but have a hard time calling bush a liar over the Weapons of Mass Destruction. There is no way to prove he knew the whether or not he had them, and that is why he was able to get britian and most of Congress, along with the clinton's, to agree with him.

10,935 false statements.

Angel of Death (turn it up)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY1bWLedNro

#1) When they get caught in a sex scandal it involves Heterosexuality with a consenting adult.

"The statements made by Georgie Boy were based on intelligence that was bought hook line and sinker by both parties and the Clinton administration earlier. I just think it's prematyre to say "Gotcha"."

Both parties in Congress were hoodwinked, no doubt, and were lied to by the same people that got up and lied to us, and the U.N., and the world.

The intelligence community didn't lie to Bush to convince him to go to war...he and his cronies cooked intelligence, made up intelligence, ignored intelligence, and then sent Colin Powell out to deliver the bag of crap that they had cooked up.

Not that long ago the RWWJ's were holding up Powell as not only proof that the Republicans care about minorities, but also as a possible presidential candidate...after what BushCorp did to him, he can't get elected to a local school board now. Not that he's blameless, because he knew it was crap when he was saying it...but said it anyway.

BushCorp was not fooled by the same faulty intelligence as the rest of the world...they wrote the faulty intelligence and used it to fool the rest of the world.

Fish on...

Todd

Downing Street Memos?

You're just showing everyone how little about U.S. history you know. Rights of Americans have been infringed on by the President in virtually every war we have ever been in. Some of the most serious offences were committed by two of the all time greatest presidents:

Lincoln suspended the right of habeus corpus and ordered Maryland state legislators who supported seccession to be arrested and imprisoned in order to keep Maryland in the Union. FDR threw US citizens into concentration camps. They did more than that, this is just all I can remember off the top of my head.

I'm not trying to stop the Bush bash, I'm just trying to educate you so you don't go around making such stupid comments and embarrassing yourself. Read a few books instead of being spoonfed by the media, and you'll have a better understanding of US history and the current conflict.

Okay, I'll stir the pot some more:

Patriot Act + Department of Homeland Security = GESTAPO

I thought law enforcement, NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF, and all the other acronyms were doing just fine....

Isn't it ironic that I'll probably find myself voting for a Democrat I don't respect in order to restore fiscal conservatism in and a halt to the assault on civil liberties from the White House?

Even if there was an honorable Republican candidate, I wouldn't vote for him/her because I think it's vital to punish the RNC for giving us Bushco.

I suppose soon the mystery will be, how bad can Obama or Clinton be? A spooky feeling, isn't it?

I might vote Democrat, as long as it's not Hillary.

KK, Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus in direct opposition to Congress, while the Patriot act was passed by congress. Also, what do you have to say about the concentration camps in WWII? What Bush has done pales in comparison to arresting legislators and rounding up ethnic groups to stick in concentration camps.


I'm curious, how has the "assault on civil liberties" impacted any of you personally? I certainly haven't had any freedoms restricted, the whole things seems blown way out of proportion. Maybe you just don't like taking your shoes off at the airport because your feet stink

For me, freedom is more of a feeling than anything else. I "feel" less freedom than I used to. Maybe that is because I've read enough to know that my (and your!) e-mails and phone calls have been put through the machine. No, I don't set off the red flags but I'm still in the system. I have to comply with increased invasion of privacy at airports and ferries even though it does little to protect anyone. I work at a financial institution and won't even go into the things we do with different databases since 9/11. I could go on.

Just knowing these things are happening is a loss of freedom to me.

He has to do this within the law. That has not been done. IMO, your foresight and attitude is shortsighted and, unfortunately, common.

The fact that people still consider this "war time" is insane. That is like saying we are experiencing "war time" during the "war on drugs" or the "war on poverty".

KK, you misunderstood me. I wasn't arguing that because it hasn't impacted me, it isn't important. I just don't know that much about what freedoms have been taken and wanted to know some specific examples where Americans have been harmed. Your theoretical example of fishermen being arrested because of their outdoor skills did little to convince me

So that's why they all support Bush. (sarcastic tone intended, in case you didn't figure that out)

"Hello......Homeland Security? Yeah, I was wondering if you've been reading my email or listening to my phone calls. What do you mean you can't tell me? This guy on PP wants proof regular people are losing their rights, and wants some examples.

Hello?

Hello?"


Trading liberty for safety means you deserve neither. And likely, that's what you'll get.

So who is going to help us when there are two Clintons in the White House. You got to be S...... M.

The US hasn't fought a war involving American Freedom since 1945.

Hankster,
How do we know who is in Guantanamo. The adminstration has stated that they do not have to give them rights or notify their families or anyone else that they were taken there. There is no public list of who is there. We are just expected to believe that the government knows best and to give them unending trust. That is something I will never give anyone. The whole process sounds like something out of the old Soviet Union, not what we would ever expect from the US.

Does you friend have a skinny little mustache, walk with stiff legs, and have funny insignias on his sleeves, ...'cause he MAY be a Nazi!

I ALSO have a friend who just returned from his second stint in Iraq, and his opinion is that the general consensus from ALL of those that he served with (The Army) over there is this:

The War is stupid
We are NOT winning
We should NOT be there
The Politicians want Us there, but The Military Itself does NOT

"Yes, I clearly feel that because nobody I or you know has been picked up that there is no problem. The people that were picked up and thrown in Guantanamo, which I presume is what is getting everyone all riled up about, are in effect, POW's and I do not know of any case in any war where POW's were granted any rights, including habeas, with the exception of mail and Red Cross visits. The reasoning for keeping POW's in the first place is so that they will not go back to their fellow soldiers and try to kill you again."

Geez hankster.....think before you type. The entire "problem" with Bushes GITMO is that he is not granting them POW status nor adhering to the geneva Convention.

You say you will vote for a Republican no matter what but seem to indicate you don't like their stance on things. Very weird.

BTW Foster Farms is not in Arkansas. It's Tyson Chicken.

You did not use "skewed science" referring to the democratic party did you? WOW.

Remember the old saying that goes something like this:
When they came for my neighbor I did nothing. When they came for me there was nobody left to do something about it.

BTW everyone. I think I'm going to vote for Hillary just to squeeze out four more years of entertainment from this board.

The biggest myth/conspiracy out there is the intelligence was manipulated by the Bush administration. We all know 47-some-odd countrys participated in the intelligence gathering process. The Clinton administration bombed Iraq several times throughout the 90's prior to Bush 43 and would have invaded if he hadn't gotten a blow job. So don't even try to go there calling it Bush's war. We know for a FACT Saddam Hussein used WMD's on his own people. We know for a FACT he continued to ignore sanctions and continued to violate international law. Nobody knew where they stashed the WMDs. It could have been Jordan, Syria, or other places in Iraq. We never scanned 100% of that country nor intend to. IT was a former Clinton Administration official that told president Bush- QUOTE "its a slam dunk" we acted on. ITs also a fact Al Qaeda was is and still is there. You see there were no lies. There was no manipulated data. Intelligence can be wrong. It was not a mistake to go there considering what Saddam's regime was doing to it's own people.

Im amazed you guys are so bitter about your loss in 00' & 04' still... and the way its looking now your loss in 08'. Good luck! You can always win with Gregoire this year in a 3rd recount. 1 out of 3 ain't bad.


- don't flatter yourself, the Bush adminstration isn't spying on your cell phone

quote] Your response reminds me of a very funny book I read where some Blacks in the south were arrested for attempted manufacture of Molotov Cocktails because they had some sheets in the house along with a case of bottled soda and a Buick in the driveway with a half tank of gas.

It is about terrorists and it is about preventing terrorist acts. Homeland Security has prevented such acts and as far as I know, the scum that were caught are in jail and will be tried in a court of law. Their Habeas rights are intact.

Have you or anyone you know of been the subject of warrantless searches or picked up and hauled off for no reason? I doubt it.
[/quot

The problem is the law does not target terrorists, it applies to everyone. About a year ago I read an article in Newsweek or Time about a man in the Los Angeles area that the FBI was interested in. Because they did not have legal grounds to search and or arrest this guy, they searched his property under the Patriot Act provisions. They found 3in1 oil, a bag of petroleum based fertilizer, and a gallon can of gas for his lawn mower. Because these items can be components for a bomb, they labeled him an enemy combatant/terrorist, suspended his rights under the constitution, and hauled him away. Sounds a lot like your example above.

Do you see how easy it would be to silence you if the government "just felt like it"? I don't really expect you to change your position, just food for thought.

"We know for a FACT Saddam Hussein used WMD's on his own people. "

We know because we gave him the chemical weapons.

"ITs also a fact Al Qaeda was is and still is there."

Actually it's the opposite. The CIA say's Saddam did not harbor and wanted nothing to do with Al Qaeda. Yes they must be lying now. Truth then lies now right?

"We never scanned 100% of that country nor intend to."

No that's what the UN inspectors were doing and said there were no WMD's and it turned out they were spot on.

" There was no manipulated data."

I'm looking at living proof. BJ brain cells are manipulated data.

Fishpinner, I never said that no other president had ever suspended rights but that you have lost more rights in the past 7 years than in the enitre histiory of this country. My info isn't spoon fed to me by any media org. Unfortunately most of the kool-aid drinkers get their "opinion" from sources like Fox News impartial and ballanced coverage.
FYI I haven't "embarrassed" myself yet but thanks for looking out for me.

Do you have a link to the article? I would be more than happy to change my position if you guys stopped dealing in anecdotes and theoretical situations and gave me some cold, hard facts with solid references on cases where loyal Americans have been severely mistreated due to the Patriot Act.

And stever, if you honestly think that the Patriot Act is worse than being rounded up and thrown in a concentration camp due to your ethnicity, I am dumbfounded and don't know what to tell you.

How about trying to, very publically, pin the Spain train bombings on an innocent lawyer from Oregon?

fishspinner, can you name one high profile case that the FBI has gotten right? Don't you find that incredibly scary that the FBI, whom seems to bungle almost every high profile case (cases they escalate and try to crucify people via the media) has been granted unprecedented unchecked power to spy on us without a warrant?

Dude, you are flat out WRONG. The suspension of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War was historically and practically the worst loss of rights American citizens have ever face in the entire history of this country. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Here's one persons experience:

http://www.alternet.org/story/15770/

BTW, the Oregon lawyer's name was Brandon Mayfield if you want to look it up.

I do not have a link - I will try to find it. I don't deal in heresay, I really read it in an actual publication. I am not trying to change your opinion either - you have every right to your beliefs - now that's freedom!

I'm totally baffled that erstwhile conservatives support the suppression of Constitutional civil rights. Except for the Oregon lawyer who was crucified by the FBI, that no other innocent American has been (that we know of) hauled off to jail with no right to an attorney, no right to hear the charges against him, no right to confront his accuser, is irrelevant. The fact that the government CAN do this is antithetical to Americanism. At least we know better than to count on you to be a descendant of the Sons of Liberty. Bloody amazing. It used to only be whacked out liberals that fit that profile. Does a conservative support anything of value any more? Or have they all sold out to Bushco and stomped whatever was good in conservatism into the mud?

More names to research:

STEVE KURTZ
Robert Ferrell
Maher Arar

Are you "more than happy" to change your position yet?

Do tell.

Koresh and his cult of whackjobs shot and killed federal agents who were there to serve a warrant on weapons charges. If you shoot a federal agent serving a valid warrant, I don't give a f*ck if they blow your ass off the planet, because you deserve it.

Now, Ruby Ridge was a different scenario altogether. It was an abomination of an operation and is a huge stain on Janet Reno's tenure.

Bad examples Hankster. Koresh was stockpiling illegal firearms. Thankfully you noted him as a leader of a cult. Cults are not afforded any more second amendment rights than the rest of us. (Of course the SCOTUS could better clarify what the 2nd amendment means.)

Elian Gonzalez was a minor child who illegally entered the US. His mother, had she survived could have asked for assylum, but that opportunity isn't afforded to minors. Either we are a nation of laws, or we aren't. I agree that was a difficult, but legally not a tough call. At age 5, Elian wasn't qualified to state a choice as to what country to reside in. And he had a legal guardian, his father, in Cuba. I don't recall his father stating that Elian should stay in the US. Absent that, there was no other legal choice but to return him home, terrified looks in the newspaper notwithstanding. If you make choices based on media sensationalism, I don't think you're really worthy of the conservative hat. Just my opinion.

Just a completely different thought on this whole war/terroism rant: what if the US spent the same amount of money on food, sanitation, housing, etc. in the arab world as it has spent on the war? What would the terrorists do? "Those american infidels have wiped out poverty in our lands, kill them!" I remember something about more flies with honey than vinegar.....

You should take your own advise and read it yourself. Congress has that power not the President. 1st time he suspended it in 1861 was in the rebellious states and he did it when congress was not in session. In 1862 after taking alot of heat from a group called the Copperhead democrats he suspended it in the rest of the states for the duration. After the war the supreme court declared all the military tribunals during the war unconstiutional because of this.What Lincoln did was probably unconstitutional and he as much as said so in saying that "violating the Constitution was required in order to save it". I don't know how you Liberals are any different than the conservatives doing all the same things, burying your head in the sand worrying about making sure that gays are able to marry and that Christmas can't be celebrated publically.

I wouldn't vote for Abe Lincoln again if I were you.

Even if Old Abe got elected by the popular vote, there's still no guarantee he'd become president. It's really rainy down here, I have nothing better to do than stir the pot

Well it was red versus blue for a while there. I think the Dixie Chicks felt at war.

On a side note: The Dixie Chick was started as a bluegrass band by Robyn Macy, my 5th grade math teacher. She quit because she didn't like the "country" direction the band was headed. ...and because she loved teaching.


carryon...

Thanks for having a sense of humor.

KK, no one is arguing with you about whether or not the civil war was a rebellion. We only said that stever's statement that americans have lost more civil liberties in the last seven years than they ever did in the previous US history is incorrect.

I looked up those cases you posted, stlhead. Arar's story is disturbing. After hearing it, I think some more controls need to be added to the Patriot act to keep things like this from happening.

However, the Patriot act has also been credited with breaking up several Al Quaeda cells in the US that would not have been discovered otherwise. Here's a link to some old info if you're interested: http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/pdf/patriot_report_from_the_field0704.pdf

If enough American lives are saved by exposing and catching terrorists, in my mind that outweighs wrongful mistreatment of some other Americans. Your opinion may differ, but we all like catching fish

I probably shouldn't admit this here, but here goes.

My best friend in high school was a state champion wrestler, good, clean kid. Fastest pin in state history at the time from Forks, Wa. After school (once he was over his scholarship), he got into a bad crowd, with some bad habits. When it all caught up with him, he was arrested by the FBI for drug felonies. They offered him a bargain;

Plea guilty and get 5 years in the Federal Pen

Fight it in court (feds told him they had a 97% conviction rate) and they would prosecute him under the Patriot Act and give him 30 years.

Their case for prosecuting him under the PA was that he had a record in high school for assault for breaking another guy's nose. Made him a violent offender, he had no other violent offenses to that date, and was not being charged for any violent crimes when they arrested him, only drugs.

Before I go, I do not support letting these drug offenses go, if you're a criminal, and you're caught, go do your time. I don't agree with labeling you as a terrorist because they want to add a few more years to your sentence on a drug conviction.

He's still in prison, so I can't get you in touch with him currently, but he'll be out in about six months, if anyone's interested in talking to him about this, I'll be sure to let him know. (I'll let you explain to him that the PA is never used against American citizens, only terrorists)

BootJay and Hankster...would your heads explode if you had to talk about politics without mentioning the Clintons every other sentence? You guys are so brainwashed by the jackasses at FoxNews that you just can't help it, can you?

BootJay...Saddam did use WMD's on his own people...and unlike the current imaginary WMD's, we KNOW those existed and that he used them, because we're the ones who gave them to him.

Under current BushCorp policies, that would make us terrorists for supporting a terrorist regime, and we should invade ourselves.

Clinton! Clinton! Clinton!

Fish on...

Todd

Until you're one of the Americans wrongly mistreated. Or your wife is. Or your brother. Or mother. Or one of your children, etc.

But hey, if it's not happening to you, it's not your problem right?

LoweDown, I already said I think some more controls need to be instituted to eliminate the more aggregious mistreatments. With that said, if I did something or had associations with someone that raised suspicions about me, I would be fine with being seized and questioned. I probably would be pissed at the time, but I know that similar actions could catch real terrorists and save American lives.

Some of the racial profiling issues are unfair and wrong, but it was the radical Muslims that started this war. Any war has casualties, so people of Middle Eastern origins only have their fundamentalist brethren to thank for any wrongful arrests or questioning.

Like eating at the wrong restaurant?

Now THAT"S hilarious!!!

Boy are you naiive...

Hmmm, ...the Muslims started the War on Terror!?!

Or checking out the wrong book at the library?
Or taking pictures of the Ballard Locks?
Or purchasing gasoline and lawn fertilizer in the same day?

We need to take your freedoms away to save you from people who hate you for your freedoms, painful logic there.

Man it's scary at the number of people who are OK with this loss of freedom and civil rights. Nice to know who not to count on to have my back. Or teach the secret handshake for the Sons of Liberty.

Americans against freedom. I can barely believe it. Where do you get these ideas?

No kidding.

Painful.

OK, you guys convinced me and I think a warrant should be required to make arrests. I still think the other parts of the Patriot act increasing communication between different government agencies and allowing phone surveillance are good.

blue water pro, did you even read what I said? I said that mistreatment of middle easterners was WRONG. It is an unfortunate situation caused by radical islamists crashing airliners into the trade towers.

IF we only caught one bad guy for tens of thousands harrassed, then of course it wouldn't be worth it. Let me pull some numbers out of my ass like you did and show you how your logic failed. If we caught one bad guy for every ten harrassed, and that bad guy would have killed ten Americans, then we would have ten harrassed citizens instead of ten dead ones. Would you rather be annoyed or dead? Unless you have some real data, don't use numbers as evidence for your point of view.

Peace out, dudes

fishpinner - I agree with you on the interagency communication for sure. We should have the most technologically advanced law enforcement, intelligence gathering, and anti-terrorism agencies on the planet. all bound by the rules and rights granted our citizens in our consitution. i for one love the idea of maintaining the freedoms that they hate us for having.

thanks for the interesting debate.

Salmo G, You're one smart, thoughtful, wise, dude. So much of what you say is 100% dead-on.

our precious free press has been soft balling Bouche for eight years and they lean left??

The media and the administrations are mutual co-dependents, they spar just enough to make it look like they're doing their respective jobs.

Claiming our media has a "liberal bias" is one of the largest pieces of unadulterated bullchit ever propounded by the right wing whack jobs...the most ironic part of that total farce is that the lie was spread and given life by...the right wing media machine.

What's more funny, just like all the other 'fair and balanced' coverage given by the right wing media machine, it was bought...hook, line, and sinker...by the dittoheads that listen to it.

Don't any of you guys ever read the studies that show that if you listen to FoxNews that you actually know less at the end of the show than you did before? And just to let you know, I'm not making that up to make a point, it's a true study, one that talks about the repetition of lies (catapult the propoganda!) and willingness to believe on the part of the FoxNews patrons...

Fish on...

Todd

Or dating a girl who attended an anti-war rally once in College, al la The McCarthy Era.

It might be true that journalists tend to vote for more progressive candidates, but they are keenly aware of the loss of civil liberties that come with conservative ideologies...plus, studies show that people all across the country vote along educational lines...educated people tend to vote for progressives, and unededucated prefer to have their ideology spoon fed to them, something the conservatives excell at.

Journalists tend to have educations, too...and I think that your observation that conservatives are easy to bash is on target...just look at how they've behaved the past seven years.

Fish on...

Todd

So where do you all get your news from these days?

I find that ESPECIALLY television news has just become a race to the bottom. CNN at least seemed reputable 10 years ago, now it's Anderson Cooper trying to be hip (heard him say "Bling Bling" last week, painful), celebutards, fearmongering, and gossip.

I'd love to have a ranking of major news outlets by the INVERSE of their coverage of (anna nicole smith + britney + paris hilton). CNN and FoxNews would both BOMB on that scale.

Even online it's hard to find good authoritative news -- it's all press releases and borderline blog posts (or reposting things reported in other news outlets).

Yep.

Just how they like it.

Try this:
Democracy Now