I think it comes down to the sacrifice for the country that people recognise laterun. It is not that McCain is more heroic than the others who serve but having been beaten, tortured and never denouncing his country like many others do means something about a mans toughness and character. I have never heard anyone say he is more heroic than those who fought beside him or god forbid, those who sacrificed even more. What he endured is what people realize on both sides of the political spectrum.
There are those people who get their headlines from places like moveon.org that say what they say but they are so off that they make themselves irrelivant. Sad because those are the same people who championed him before as the only republican people should listen to that hate him now he got the GOP nod. The old knife you in the back croud.

No I don't.

Your avatar speaks for itself dude

Docspud, I know what you mean about his character and I would probably vote for him as there is really no choice on the demo. side. Same old story, how many millions of people to chose from and this is the choice?,give me a break.That being said, I am always turned off by the political spots that bring up his time in captivity for the sympathy(?) angle. These are the same pundits who pushed so hard to keep GW's military time out of the issue and off the plate for discussion. Like any other dodgers who went to college,Canada,NG,or got deferments for flatfeet and such,I would never,ever vote for one of them. Too many young men died in Vietnam to support the system that allowed this to happen. When I was drafted,the star running back (fullback) that I had just graduated with got a deferment because his dad knew someone to call to get a doctor to say he was not fit. I know this for a fact and although we were very good friends, I never spoke to him since 1966.

Stlhead, yes,I think it would be a good idea if all children had health care until 18. But it should be contingent upon them staying in school and out of trouble. There need to be incentives attached to any rewards. We have such a high dropout rate in this country that it does no good to complain about the illegals and the outsourcing of jobs if we continue to have no one to fill the upper level positions. Microsoft would be glad to hire locally if they could find people with the skills required.We put so much effort into our kids excelling in sports that the academics get a backseat.

If you get too sick to work you lose your insurance, the ins you have earned thru years of payments & work (which were used for strep throats) but when you get too sick to work you lose it.

A 24yr old man gets Hodgkin’s, he works in the trades, never missed a day, hard worker, trained thru the apprenticeship -well skilled. He works thru chemo & radiation still rarely missing a day. He comes down with a bad infection & is hospitalized for 3 weeks, almost dies, his employer gives someone else his job because it needs to be done. He looks for another job but bald, pale & sickly looking he can’t find one. He loses his insurance, now maybe his doc still treats him, then again maybe not.

A 45 yr old man has worked for the same company for 20 yrs, he can’t remember the last time he missed a day. His doctor recommends a test that uses dye. He has a bad reaction to the dye & for some freak reason goes into kidney failure. Unable to work he loses his insurance.

Not all people without insurance are deadbeats in fact most are not. 50% of bankrupts are due to medical bills, 90% of those filling are middle class, 80% had insurance when they got sick.

A doc needs to make probably $200 per hour to cover his office cost, salaries, malpractice ins. The cost to each 10 mins he spends with a patient would be $33.50. If 1 out of 6 can’t pay he needs to charge $40.00. The insurance comp take a 40% discount off the approved price so he needs to charge $70.00 to make $40.00. He has to accept Medicaid & other low reimbursements so now he needs to charge $75.00 to make $40.00. To cover those who can’t pay their 20% he needs to charge $85.00. Now in order to stay in business to cover himself he should up his price 50% so his charge for 10 mins is $128.00. This is how $33.50 worth of service cost $128.00, hard to believe the doc is not ripping people off when you look on the surface but in reality he is not, there just are too many people who can’t pay.

POWs are hero’s because they suffer in captivity for our country. At the very least indignities more likely torture, who knows what a person is capable of doing to someone they consider an enemy without rules. McCain has a pitifully pathetic health care plan, if not for that I would vote for him but health care is going to bankrupt our country. Bill was a wiz at budgets & the economy did well, so that with Hillary’s health care, Clinton just makes sense to me.

Hey everybody, AM's a liar.

Here's the only thing I ever said about the USS Forrestal:
"By the way, do some research on the USS Forrestal."
Even in your rhetorical hyperbolic delusion, how do you come up with the conclusion that I stated he was responsible from that one sentence? Aren't you the one that just recently made a directed comment about ASSumptions?

I never once used the word "war crime" or even "treason" for that matter towards McCain. I simply stated the fact that he violated Article V of the Code of Conduct. And it's no smear campaign because he admits he did it:
After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain

McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital normally unavailable to American POWS. (U.S. government documents)

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.

One report dated read, "To a question of the correspondent, McCain answered: 'My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam.'"

In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.

That last fact is why I opined that what he did was worse than Fonda. She may have sympathized with the enemy, but she never gave away sensitive information to the enemy.

I, too, find it questionable why he's considered a hero after all things considered concerning his time in captivity and actions upon returning home.

Barf

Discerning, smart readers are going to say that your comment was taken out of context by you and what you said prior to that comment would have relevance. "By the way" was a dead giveaway and you probably shouldn't have included it.

Since it clearly was proceeded by a bashing statement, they can also figure out you were INFERRING McCain was responsible, or there would be no reason to bring it up. Nice try, but it's you who lied.

You also said... That was funny!

You also said

No, you claim he did. Show me where McCain says "I colluded with the enemy"!!!

Which CLEARLY implies treason.

HOWEVER.... I don't think Fonda was held captive and tortured for more than 5 years. McCain was never disciplined for those remarks that endangered no one's life at the time, and you know it. McCain was refused medical treatment for two broken arms and a broken leg and McCain knew if he didn't get treatment soon, he would die. He was a thorn in the sides of his captors for many years. He gave minimal cooperation to stay alive, and he NEVER betrayed his country like you imply.

McCain finished out his Navy career after he was released, so I'm guessing those in charge never saw things YOUR way, since clearly conditions must be taken into account to find someone in violation of the Code of Conduct. You always leave that part out in your accusations and you claim he received "special" treament because his father was an Admiral. You forgot to add that the other captives that were with McCain who were cooperative also were never charged.

Some of us know lies and propaganda when we see it.

Here's some other comments you made.





This has gone a long way from the thread topic, but anyone playing along and keeping score needs to know why GH and I are exchanging blows.

Most of the folks disagreed with GH on McCain's POW past, including several military folks and of course, he's taking it out on me. When it comes to his personal attacks, few poeple are better at self defense than I. Bring it on you little weeny!

BWP, your simple breakdown doesn't include some very important facts. The costs of covering those uninsured is going to add a huge layer of bureaucratic and insurance company costs, which will be passed on to us in higher premiums, deductibles AND taxes.

You keep ignoring profits so everything you suggest is unrealistic and unworkable.

"Microsoft would be glad to hire locally if they could find people with the skills required."

Not true. Corps like Microsoft used to train people locally. Now they open mass campuses in foreign countries like India where labor is cheap and train there then whine about lack of talent here. Who in their right mind would get a comp sci degree these days when you can see the hand writing on the wall....those jobs aren't coming back until the pay is so crappy it ain't worth it.

BTW, I would never consider health care a reward. It should be a basic right which is good for society as a whole in the long run. Healthy kids mean healthy adults. Better workers and less of a drain on society. If every child and adult were allowed an annual physical think of the long term benefits. "You blood sugar is getting low so we need to regulate that". Right there could mean that twenty years down the road we don't have someone suffering from severe diabetes, can't function and drawing welfare or disability. In this example a $100, or whatever, physical saved $100K or more.

"O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
How is that not collusion? Fonda was never charged with treason either, so saying my opinion of what he did is worse does in no way imply I believe his actions were treasonous. Another assumption by you.

What conditions must be taken into account to determine whether the CoC was violated? I've read it for years and have never seen any conditions written. It's pretty binary.

The report said, "McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place. "
And you said, "...remarks that endangered no one's life at the time..."
Now that is funny. Your naive ignorance is almost cute.

"By the way" means simply look at the facts surrounding a subject. I didn't say he was responsible for the Forrestal fire, but obviously many of his shipmates did on the site you chose to read. Ergo, there is speculation by some that he was directly involved with its cause. However, another historical site doesn't even mention that he was assigned to the ship. I found that odd considering his notoriety. There's no irrefutable proof that he either was or was not involved. Smart discerning readers look at both sides when doing investigative research.

I can't smear McCain, your party already did in 2000. I have merely posted excerpts of what the R's have said earlier, or quotes from McCain himself. I'm simply reminding people of what your party has already said. It's your inherent hypocrisy that will not allow you to understand that.

Yet you are a fervent McCain supporter and will undoubtedly vote Republican. Others, too, have noticed you've become a hypocritically inconsistent partisan hack putting party before country-- and now you're playing the victim card.
Very sad.

Uh, wrong again. I was a fervent Romney supporter.

The last article of the Code of Conduct, 7d is something you might want to ponder in your slanderings of McCain.



Again, John McCain was never disciplined for your falseaccusations, and he completed his career with an honorable discharge upon retirement. Those who were with him at HH all said he conducted himself honorably and was a great help to them.

Those are the FACTS and your whacked out diatribe is just that. Whacked out liberal weeny whining.

AuntyM,
Your right this thread sure has deviated from the fireman who were fired for not speaking Spanish. It has become a free for all but considering the title of the thread, it fits. Hate to distract you from the good defense you are giving to our American Hero but I am on a health care kick.

I am not trying to ignore profits but rather believe that once we get all covered, we will finally have control over the ins. I read that the CEO of United Health Care made $150 million dollar bonus last year. They have according to their website 50 million members so that is $3.00 per year per member, that is the kind of money we are dealing with, it is huge. A CEO of another ins comp must payback $486 million for back dating his stock options.

For profit medicine means that they are out to make money, they decide what equipment they buy on the basis of profit, what procedures they do, and maybe even what disease you have based on profit. There are clinics and hosp that ship off the critical once they stabilize them to county hosp. It seems unfair to me that the for profits benefit from the research & advances made that are paid for by tax dollars but will not treat those without ins & still charge the price that has become necessary due to the uninsured.

I read about a man who has many private hosp & clinics that refuses anyone without ins. He supposedly lives in 15,000 sq ft home with 14k gold toilets. What a strange person he must be, if you ever dislike your relatives just think of him & count your blessings.

To me it seems to me we have 2 choices either mandate coverage for all or do away complete with the ins comps & start over.

I think it's going to take something catastrophic in this nation to change our course. Another depression, a pandemic etc. and we will be forced to make those changes. I don't see it happening because Hillary or anybody else wills it though. The industry is too strong and powerful.

Stlhead ,I just read an article about Microsoft and thier need for so many visas, the guy in the interview said it was because they could not fill the positions in the local area and would be happy to do so if the qualified people were available. Guess he must have been just giving lip service to the situation.

[quote=AuntyM
I think it's going to take something catastrophic in this nation to change our course. Another depression, a pandemic etc. and we will be forced to make those changes. I don't see it happening because Hillary or anybody else wills it though. The industry is too strong and powerful. [/quote]

+1

According to Michael Moore's movie F/911, Hillary's biggest PAC contributor is the health insurance industry - "you become what you resist" is a saying that comes to me often when talking about politics/bureaucracy.

When has the goverment ever done anything better or more efficiently than private enterprise?

I would say the US government has done a pretty good job with the military and better than the private sector. (Halliburton anyone?) Which, of course was supposed to be the feds primary function to begin with.

"Stlhead ,I just read an article about Microsoft and thier need for so many visas, the guy in the interview said it was because they could not fill the positions in the local area and would be happy to do so if the qualified people were available. Guess he must have been just giving lip service to the situation. "

Yes lip service. It's Bill Gates's annual lobbying to have the cap lifted on H1B visas so they can import foreigners who work for less and are a form of slave labor. If an H1B visa holder loses his job he is deported. That's a big hold on an employee that they don't have over a citizen. Also, the big outsourcing companies like to cycle the H1B visas. Meaning they send a different person each time. That person learns at Microsoft and goes back to India and teaches to others on a paid for by Microsoft campus. Where's the big Microsoft teaching institution here? Why doesn't Microsoft invest in our Universities if it want's talent? Salaries are now rising in India so what happens? Russia, Poland, China but no investment in rearing US talent. Why? All about the bottom line and, yes, lip service.