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#424230 - 03/24/08 10:03 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: blue water pro]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 286
Loc: Salem OR
 Originally Posted By: blue water pro
Wriveroutlaw,
I'm sorry if it seemed I said you hated Muslims, I was not saying that, didn't even think that. Typing on the internet can get things confused. I meant that I considered the comment ignorant because I see those militant anti-woman actions to be due to the culture of a country - really to me it is nothing more than that. American Muslims would never consider such a thing. I understand now what you were saying. Can you understand what I am saying?


Docspud,
I should sit down & figure out the #s involved but I havent' because I see billionarie ins CEOs & know they are making money by handing off the sick to our gov. Cut out those billionaries & give the $ to the gov to fund what they already pay for -health care for the sick. If I wanted to make $ in ins, couldn't think of a better way to make it then the current system. Ins people well enough to work but not with a term policy but rather a policy that ends when they are too sick to work, then the big bills will be paid by the gov or absorbed by the hospitals who just passes the cost on to the rest of us. No free lunch, it is dispersed & carried by all, the bill will always be there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out we are being ripped off. Even if people bought individually, if they couldn't work they probably couldn't pay premiums & if they could, the ins would find a way to exclude.

I have a friend who is a surgeon that I knew in college. He worked day & night & couldn't afford to eat & still works harder & longer than most. He is smart enough to have been anything. He will not be rich until he is 60? He is rich now in his 40s. Everyone has an idea of rich but I don't know anyone that wouldn't consider him rich. He deserves what he earns, I never thought we should go after the docs that afterall is the ins comps other agenda.

Many families are homeless due to med bills, many people have died due to lack of ins. Why? Not for the benefit of our gov economy but rather to make a CEO another billion, or to give a bonus to those who finds a way to hand off the expensive to our gov. They are in business to make $ not care for sick people - you gotta get that!


I kind of see where your coming from.. But billionaire CEO's make up a miniscule portion of our society. Additionally most of the companies ran by billionaire CEO's provide health care to there employees. If you really want to see healthcare prices go down.. Change the laws to better protect doctors from ambulance chasing attorneys who drive up costs by suing doctors for everything.
_________________________
Bigot(noun): Anyone a liberal disagress with. *Also see: Fascist.

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#424238 - 03/24/08 10:54 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3321
You want to see health care prices go down quit charging US citizens more for drugs than the rest of the world pays. Drugs made here by US companies who get substantial tax breaks and rubber stamp approval by their shill called the FDA.

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#424261 - 03/24/08 12:18 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: stlhead]
Mikespike Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 938
Loc: Chico, CA
There was a time when health care was more affordable - before the HMO's. They are just another mouth to feed (a huge mouth) when we could just have doctors make the call on what a patient needs. Same with hospitals, too many administrators instead of healers. Rant, rant, rant... ;\)
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#424435 - 03/24/08 08:58 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: docspud]
goharley Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 2051
Loc: U.S. Army
 Originally Posted By: docspud
How do you intend to pay for(everyone covered.)?


Gee, I dunno, how about asking every other industrialized nation how they do it? I mean, being as how we're reputedly the richest nation and all.....
_________________________
"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." --McCain as quoted in the Boston Globe

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt." --McCain to his wife, Cindy, as reported in the book The Real McCain

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#424458 - 03/24/08 09:34 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: goharley]
Dogfish Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 3816
Loc: McCleary, WA
Rick, you're back! Nice to see you again!
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

Yes, I am still voting for Ron Paul.

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#425213 - 03/26/08 07:04 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: Dogfish]
Dave D Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: Gold Bar
GoHarley
You sticking around? Missed your posts
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Lead Thrower

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#425251 - 03/26/08 08:45 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: Dave D]
goharley Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 2051
Loc: U.S. Army
I'll be around increasingly more, I hope.
_________________________
"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." --McCain as quoted in the Boston Globe

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt." --McCain to his wife, Cindy, as reported in the book The Real McCain

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#425348 - 03/27/08 10:01 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: goharley]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 286
Loc: Salem OR
 Originally Posted By: goharley
 Originally Posted By: docspud
How do you intend to pay for(everyone covered.)?


Gee, I dunno, how about asking every other industrialized nation how they do it? I mean, being as how we're reputedly the richest nation and all.....


Huh Its pretty easy how they do it, they tax the sh!t out of everyone and take away the incentives for working hard..
_________________________
Bigot(noun): Anyone a liberal disagress with. *Also see: Fascist.

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#425472 - 03/27/08 08:52 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
goharley Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 2051
Loc: U.S. Army
 Originally Posted By: willametteriveroutlaw
Huh Its pretty easy how they do it, they tax the sh!t out of everyone and take away the incentives for working hard..


Are you implying that no other industrialized nation's citizens work hard? And if they are taxed so heavily, why are there not more industrialized nations whose majority of citizens are in poverty? And if for-profit health care relies on the hope that people become gravely ill to increase the profit margin, does this not seem somewhat morally deficient?
_________________________
"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." --McCain as quoted in the Boston Globe

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt." --McCain to his wife, Cindy, as reported in the book The Real McCain

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#425492 - 03/27/08 11:25 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: goharley]
blue water pro Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 903
Wriveroutlaw,
Personally against legislation to cap lawsuit but also against frivolous lawsuits. IMO incompetents deserve to be sued. If I went in to get my tonsils out and woke up without a leg, I would like to be able to sue for what I think it is worth not a capped amount predetermined by law.

Stlhead,Totally agree about the price of meds - we subsidies & the thanks we get is the highest price. WAY too much.

Mikespike, yep too much is money & time is spent on paperwork & too little on healing.

--------------------
We should not go after the docs – cause we want the best. We should not go after the lawyers cause we want competent care. We need to spend $ in drug research but many new drugs are not better than the old tried & true – of which in many cases there are many -So why waste time & money? Our system needs redone, it keeps getting worse & worse & more & more expensive & the ins comps keep ripping us off.

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#425515 - 03/28/08 08:13 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: Mikespike]
AuntyM Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 10247
Loc: Harstine Island
 Originally Posted By: Mikespike
There was a time when health care was more affordable - before the HMO's. They are just another mouth to feed (a huge mouth) when we could just have doctors make the call on what a patient needs. Same with hospitals, too many administrators instead of healers. Rant, rant, rant... ;\)


Same thing with many other programs and government entities. Too many administrators. Especially with school districts.

We have to remember that much of the problem begins with our own expectations, which are much higher than they were 40-50 years ago. Now, we expect and demand care that wasn't available back then. We're saving a lot of lives and improving quality of life for many more, but it costs a whole lot more than we want to pay. In addition, we try to save folks that we know we can't, and that's my biggest gripe. When a person has a terminal illness and we try to give them a few more years of "not quality" life, it can cost millions to insurance companies and taxpayers.

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#425518 - 03/28/08 09:10 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: blue water pro]
docspud Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 443
Loc: Silverdale Wa
Goharley,
The people of many european nations are taxed beyond beleive to pay for the socialized society they live in. A large portion of the population is at or below poverty. The employer wont even give jobs to the young because of the fact that you cant get rid of them once their foot is in the door. Hense the uneployment rate and the roits that have been happening year after year because the young cant get work. Their economies are stagnet and yes so is ours at the moment but our growth far outreaches any of the socialized societies besides maybe China which is a hole other discussion.
For-profit health care as you call it is what gets the best and brightest Dr's into the system and what creates the great advances that keep people from getting sick. No one in the health care system wants anyone to become "gravely ill" to make an increased profit. That is just sick and a sad oppinion of Dr's in general. Likely the same type of thought process that keeps people sue happy in this country leading to higher malpracitce costs that gets past on to the patients in higher treatment costs so hard working Drs can afford to stay in practice. And there is no moral dificancy in giving your life work to helping people live longer better lives and trying to make a living at it. Like it or not we have the best health care system in the world with the most advances and the best treatment. If your so impressed with all the systems in europe and asia, fly over the next time you need a serious surgery and see if it is as good as the US if you make it back at all.
_________________________
Never leave a few fish for a lot of fish son.....you just might not find a lot of fish-----Theo

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#425527 - 03/28/08 10:12 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: docspud]
laterun Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 691
Loc: Napavine,Washington
AuntyM, I totally agree with you about one of the main problems with our school system.We got very adequate educations when I went to school and we even had classes taught by the principal who was actually the ONE principal for elementary,middle and high school. He had a "secretary" and one of the senior teachers filled in for him if he was gone for any reason. Then as time past the state and federal government got more and more involved (meddled) in the process and started adding positions to build thier empire.Now all these years later we have principals,vice principals,superintendents, and other heads of departments that actually perform only functions that justify thier job, but do nothing to teach the children.Did I mention that they all have staffs? I have gone to school board meetings to complain but have been shut down by the empire builders who are totaly convinced that if anything they need to hire more people because they are so overloaded. If it was a for profit company they would have been bankrupt long ago, but thanks to that never empty vat called taxes they go on and on.

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#425541 - 03/28/08 11:39 AM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: laterun]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3321
A large part of our health care system has become one of inventing illnesses, conditions, what have you to explain common symptoms in order to sell drugs. "Are you tired?" "You just might have exhaustive neorosis disease. Ask your doctor if this new drug is right for you."

Another large market is side effects. Since our FDA rubber stamps drugs we are the guinea pigs. Often times the side effects of these drugs are worse than the condition and lead to other drugs to treat the side effects.

Myself I spent less than 24 hours in critical care last year. The bill came out to approximately $1,000 an hour. $16K total. I had one of the most expensive rooms on the planet.

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#425577 - 03/28/08 03:10 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: blue water pro]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 286
Loc: Salem OR
Go Harley,
http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

Look at sweden, You can pay 60% of your income in taxes plus 25% sales tax and get your perfect world. Oh wait Sh!t for GDP and no limited Military protection.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
Winston Churchill

Blue Water Pro

While the tonsils out losing a leg thing would suck, it rarely happens. The fact of the matter is that many professions in the medical trade aren't growing with demand because of out of control insurance rates. Being an OBGYN is scary because everyone sues them when something goes wrong with there pregnancy whether or not its the doc's fault.
_________________________
Bigot(noun): Anyone a liberal disagress with. *Also see: Fascist.

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#425584 - 03/28/08 03:39 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
Dave D Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: Gold Bar
 Quote:
Since our FDA rubber stamps drugs we are the guinea pigs


Stlehead
It's worse then that, not all drugs in the pharmacy are even FDA approved.
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A.K.A
Lead Thrower

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#425585 - 03/28/08 03:51 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: Dave D]
Dave D Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: Gold Bar
willametteriveroutlaw

One thing to remember, you are locked into an American way of thinking. Europeans may pay more out of their pocket but they associate happiness with a healthy life and with having good friends and family, NOT how much money they have to buy toys.

The Swedish social welfare system is one of the best in the world. Every legal resident is covered by health insurance. Education is free. Every child gets free transportation, food in the school and 950 SEK/month till the age of 18. If you plan to have a baby, choose Sweden, you will get one-year fully paid leave, which can be shared by the parents.

Do you know how hard it is to get time off work in America when your wife has a kid, our entire value system is based off the buck to buy and not family.


Edited by Dave D (03/28/08 03:57 PM)
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#425683 - 03/29/08 02:32 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
goharley Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 2051
Loc: U.S. Army
 Originally Posted By: willametteriveroutlaw
Look at sweden, You can pay 60% of your income in taxes...


Wow, 60% in taxes in return for health care, education, transportation, some vacation, etc. That leaves the average citizen with 40% disposable income. How many Americans can claim to have 40% disposable income after buying just health insurance? Most Americans can't afford to even put money in the bank or invest for retirement in the first place.

Since you make the claim that doctors are victimized by too much litigation, do you propose that the government step in and provide more regulation? Why is it, though, that the number of lawsuits has declined in relation to the cost of health care and insurance rising?



Edited by goharley (03/29/08 02:32 PM)
_________________________
"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should." --McCain as quoted in the Boston Globe

"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt." --McCain to his wife, Cindy, as reported in the book The Real McCain

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#425704 - 03/29/08 05:31 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: Irie]
Pugnacious Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 588
Loc: Yes!!!!
 Originally Posted By: Irie
Talk radio is Ego Masturbation, whichever slant it caters to. They're just stroking the opinion center of your brain long enough to make you listen to their commercials and let you feel morally superior and correct.

The State of Arizona last summer passed a bill revoking the business licences of companies that employ illegals because illegal immigration was undercutting the wages and quality of life for Arizona Citizens and the local GOP hacks down there $hit a brick.

That right there in a nutshell sums up the GOP and their views on the working class, immigration, and corporations.


Why is it that Arizona seems to be the only state that does anything that makes any sense? They take stuff that the rest of the nation seems to turn into a huge moral debate about ethical treatment of illegal aliens and providing them with all the benefits of being a citizen without the woes of it. B.S. Good on Arizona. If they had salmon and steelhead runs and got more than a couple inches of rain a year with more trees I would live there.
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To everybody else, YOU are the other guy.

Don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

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#426153 - 04/01/08 05:04 PM Re: Crock of Sh-t! [Re: goharley]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 286
Loc: Salem OR
 Originally Posted By: goharley
 Originally Posted By: willametteriveroutlaw
Look at sweden, You can pay 60% of your income in taxes...


Wow, 60% in taxes in return for health care, education, transportation, some vacation, etc. That leaves the average citizen with 40% disposable income. How many Americans can claim to have 40% disposable income after buying just health insurance? Most Americans can't afford to even put money in the bank or invest for retirement in the first place.

Since you make the claim that doctors are victimized by too much litigation, do you propose that the government step in and provide more regulation? Why is it, though, that the number of lawsuits has declined in relation to the cost of health care and insurance rising?



I pay ~35% of my income and get all of the above.. ( I paid for college myself, which just took a little savings). Why would I want to pay an additional 30% for people who didn't get there [censored] together. What do you mean by transportation, I never saw where sweden buys there citizens a vehicle. Most americans can afford to save, they just choose not to in favor of material wealth.

I hate goverment regulation, but providing a cap on lawsuits would offer some savings to on rising medical costs.
_________________________
Bigot(noun): Anyone a liberal disagress with. *Also see: Fascist.

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