you know why you don't know anything? because you probably haven't earned the respect of the guys who know what's going on out there

No matter what way you look at it that was an incredible species of salmon that we screwed up and it will never be close to what it once was. It is esa listed and the numbers are crappy that return every year. If that dam remaines they will sooner or later be extinct.

I have talked with several state fisheries biologists about this very subject and they have told me that there are in fact still fish from those original stocks returning so I gotta agree with Mark on this one. One major reason for the lack of 70 pound fish in the straits in addition to "diminished" returns is that commercial and sport fishing has severely limited the amount of fish that can survive in the ocean the 5 to 7 years it takes those fish to reach that size. Good Luck-TBJ

a little cuntradictory there

mryens_tgl, I like your signature line:

Slipping in the mud and welcome to my life!

Sounds like you slipped in the mud and bumped your head hard Dude!

wow...i don't think you should go after siglines there turbo, especially since you have never been to the bogie and that is in no context to me

That's almost funny. Respect is earned, not given.

Again, do you know something about that run that we don't?


Ya, that sounds like a real postive endorsement for what was a magnificent run of fish.

We're just nit picking now but I didn't say they were extinct. I know every year some return but find themselves butting heads with an immovable object. It just show the resilience of these fish. It shows how strong genetics are and if they were given half a chance (which I hope we give them before they are extinct) then maybe they could rebound.

Are you saying it's a healthy run?

And if you want to question my credibility you can. I've been around the block a few more times than most. I don't sit here and cut people down as my main form of online entertainment. Nor do I post about my exploits. Or my experience in the field. I'm not here to gain your endorsement as "qualified to have an (informed) opinion."

You are off on your assumption. You haven't answered my question. You've said there are still some Elwah fish around. A healthy run? No, and that's the tragedy. We sit here and argue about runs of fish that are less than a shadow of what they were. It doesn't have to be that way.

Let's give 'em a chance so we don't have to resort to what's being debated in those other thread. "Kill all the wild fish so we can just plant the hell out of our rivers with hatchery drones." That's not much of an answer to the situation if you ask me.

This has gotton way off track, thanks for the imput it is nice to know that there is a few still running around. Sorry for getting us off topic in regards to wild or native on the columbia.

Genetic diversity is the key here. If the genetic code to make a big fish is still in the collective gene pool (even if it is not fully expressed in the present day population) there is a good chance for recovery.

If it was the raw wild flows of the upper watershed that selected for those giant kings in the first place, you can bet that over time that niche will be filled with more giant fish in the future. We just have to show the self-restraint from whackin'em in our fisheries and give 'em free passage on up the river.

I wish the demolition planners would just quit all the stall tactics and finally just (to quote the late great Ronald Reagan) "Tear this wall down!"

And you do SportJet? You've snorkeled the Elwha? How about contributing to the conversation rather than passing your judgements on those that have?

I don't mind the debating about the chinook in the Elwha but I really don't like the innuendo that somebody could be a snagger because he has a different opinion.

Regading the Elwha "hogs".

In spite of chopping of the most of their habitat via the dams and bring the fish into the hatchery there were monster fish (80 to 100#) returning to the river decades after the dam was built. As with many of our larger Chinook stocks those exceptionally large Chinook disappeared with the more intense ocean fisheries that were targeting those fish on their feeding grounds. Those hook and line fisheries (ocean troll and sport fisheries) are highly selective against both the fast growing and oldest fish in the population. Without addressing that selectivity we will never see those huge fish again even if their habitats are restored.

Tight lines
Curt

Dammit, Curt! You're popping my bubble!

I think there is just a whole lot of wishin' going on here. Are the genetics still in the remnants of some of the Elwha run? Probably, but so far removed that for all the genetics of the original to rear its mighty head and once again dominate is a ridiculous hope.

I also think the conflict of "Let 'em be" and "I want fish" will never end without a complete ban.....and that's just not going to happen. Removing the dams will be good for the fish, and sooner or later the fish will be known as Natives, but more for political reasons than reality. Hail, hail

..,

The Elwha has also recieved introductions of non-native chinook stocks to the hatchery program. So there has been intermixing and genetic dilution of the original chinaook stock. Ernie Brannon told me that they still had a few of the original hogs in the freezer at the hatchery, but that we 30 years ago. There may be a few samples of pure Elwha DNA around to compare with the current genetics.