#431139 - 04/27/08 09:03 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: JoJo]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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The elwha is another example where a dam wiped out a true native chinook run. They will also never be seen from again. Team tgl and friend... Is this statement not correct? Or even close to correct? You can nit pick a word here or there to try to discredit someone but isn't the statement damn (pun inteded) close to reality? I sure don't know of too many ocean caught kings topping the 70# mark out in the straits these days. Wasn't that what the Elway was known for?
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#431141 - 04/27/08 09:05 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: mreyns]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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Historically, the Elway was known for a run of large chinook. is that what you call it when he scrambles out of the pocket? Good catch! 
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#431143 - 04/27/08 09:06 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: wntrrn]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 2426
Loc: Meridian, ID
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you know why you don't know anything? because you probably haven't earned the respect of the guys who know what's going on out there
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#431146 - 04/27/08 09:12 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: mreyns]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1736
Loc: Bainbridge Island
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I have talked with several state fisheries biologists about this very subject and they have told me that there are in fact still fish from those original stocks returning so I gotta agree with Mark on this one. One major reason for the lack of 70 pound fish in the straits in addition to "diminished" returns is that commercial and sport fishing has severely limited the amount of fish that can survive in the ocean the 5 to 7 years it takes those fish to reach that size. Good Luck-TBJ
Edited by TBJ (04/27/08 09:13 PM)
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#431147 - 04/27/08 09:14 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: JoJo]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 2426
Loc: Meridian, ID
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The elwha is another example where a dam wiped out a true native chinook run. They will also never be seen from again. It is esa listed and the numbers are crappy that return every year. If that dam remaines they will sooner or later be extinct. a little cuntradictory there
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#431150 - 04/27/08 09:17 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: jandlfishingguide]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 2426
Loc: Meridian, ID
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wow...i don't think you should go after siglines there turbo, especially since you have never been to the bogie and that is in no context to me
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#431154 - 04/27/08 09:20 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: mreyns]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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you know why you don't know anything? because you probably haven't earned the respect of the guys who know what's going on out there That's almost funny. Respect is earned, not given. Again, do you know something about that run that we don't? I've seen some bigass carcas' on the elwah, definitely not all gone. Ya, that sounds like a real postive endorsement for what was a magnificent run of fish.
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#431158 - 04/27/08 09:26 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: wntrrn]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 2927
Loc: Togiak River, Alaska.
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you know why you don't know anything? because you probably haven't earned the respect of the guys who know what's going on out there That's almost funny. Respect is earned, not given. Again, do you know something about that run that we don't? I've seen some bigass carcas' on the elwah, definitely not all gone. Ya, that sounds like a real postive endorsement for what was a magnificent run of fish. Sorry, you never answered my question so I'll ask it again. Do you know anything about the Elwah Kings? Have you gone and looked to see if there are actually any there? I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you haven't. I know that Mark, and alot of the other PA guys on the board have gone and looked, and seen more than just a few big kings. They aren't gone, and that was the original statement so why are you still arguing about it? Changing your stance in the middle of a debate/argument/conversation doesn't really work...Later Jake
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#431161 - 04/27/08 09:41 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: wntrrn]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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The elwha is another example where a dam wiped out a true native chinook run. They will also never be seen from again. Team tgl and friend... Is this statement not correct? Or even close to correct? You can nit pick a word here or there to try to discredit someone but isn't the statement damn (pun inteded) close to reality? We're just nit picking now but I didn't say they were extinct. I know every year some return but find themselves butting heads with an immovable object. It just show the resilience of these fish. It shows how strong genetics are and if they were given half a chance (which I hope we give them before they are extinct) then maybe they could rebound. Are you saying it's a healthy run? And if you want to question my credibility you can. I've been around the block a few more times than most. I don't sit here and cut people down as my main form of online entertainment. Nor do I post about my exploits. Or my experience in the field. I'm not here to gain your endorsement as "qualified to have an (informed) opinion."
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#431163 - 04/27/08 09:48 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: wntrrn]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 2927
Loc: Togiak River, Alaska.
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The elwha is another example where a dam wiped out a true native chinook run. They will also never be seen from again. Team tgl and friend... Is this statement not correct? Or even close to correct? You can nit pick a word here or there to try to discredit someone but isn't the statement damn (pun inteded) close to reality? We're just nit picking now but I didn't say they were extinct. I know every year some return but find themselves butting heads with an immovable object. It just show the resilience of these fish. It shows how strong genetics are and if they were given half a chance (which I hope we give them before they are extinct) then maybe they could rebound. Are you saying it's a healthy run? And if you want to question my credibility you can. I've been around the block a few more times than most. I don't sit here and cut people down as my main form of online entertainment. Nor do I post about my exploits. Or my experience in the field. I'm not here to gain your endorsement as "qualified to have an (informed) opinion." they don't seem to be around these days Sorry, I didn't see much difference between "not around" and "extinct"... JoJo did originally say they were wiped out, and never to be seen from again. You were defending his statement when it was questioned by someone who knew from first hand experience that his statement was false. Sorry, didn't mean to offend or "cut you down" when I asked if you know anything about what your arguing about, seems like a reasonable question to me. Was I far off base in my assumption? You still haven't answered me. And no, I never said that it was a healthy run, the original statement was that they were completely gone. The run is obviously not healthy but it is definately not extinct...Later Jake
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#431165 - 04/27/08 09:55 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: Abu-Loomis]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Edmonds
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You are off on your assumption. You haven't answered my question. You've said there are still some Elwah fish around. A healthy run? No, and that's the tragedy. We sit here and argue about runs of fish that are less than a shadow of what they were. It doesn't have to be that way.
Let's give 'em a chance so we don't have to resort to what's being debated in those other thread. "Kill all the wild fish so we can just plant the hell out of our rivers with hatchery drones." That's not much of an answer to the situation if you ask me.
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#431169 - 04/27/08 10:21 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: JoJo]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 1043
Loc: lost
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funny thread. It proves that most newer fishers have no clue.
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#431171 - 04/27/08 10:40 PM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: Abu-Loomis]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 4148
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And no, I never said that it was a healthy run, the original statement was that they were completely gone. The run is obviously not healthy but it is definately not extinct...Later
Jake Genetic diversity is the key here. If the genetic code to make a big fish is still in the collective gene pool (even if it is not fully expressed in the present day population) there is a good chance for recovery. If it was the raw wild flows of the upper watershed that selected for those giant kings in the first place, you can bet that over time that niche will be filled with more giant fish in the future. We just have to show the self-restraint from whackin'em in our fisheries and give 'em free passage on up the river. I wish the demolition planners would just quit all the stall tactics and finally just (to quote the late great Ronald Reagan) "Tear this wall down!"
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#431189 - 04/28/08 05:28 AM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: mreyns]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 4121
Loc: everett
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funny i have wondered that about you a few times, are you an elwha expert or something?
"they don't seem to be around"....maybe you don't know where to look for them, or when to look for them....i'm pretty sure it's hard to see a fish in the elwha from seattle, i don't wanna say anymore because it is closed for fishing and you could be one of those guys trying to snag them I don't mind the debating about the chinook in the Elwha but I really don't like the innuendo that somebody could be a snagger because he has a different opinion.
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#431191 - 04/28/08 05:50 AM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: Jerry Garcia]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 1345
Loc: Marysville
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Regading the Elwha "hogs".
In spite of chopping of the most of their habitat via the dams and bring the fish into the hatchery there were monster fish (80 to 100#) returning to the river decades after the dam was built. As with many of our larger Chinook stocks those exceptionally large Chinook disappeared with the more intense ocean fisheries that were targeting those fish on their feeding grounds. Those hook and line fisheries (ocean troll and sport fisheries) are highly selective against both the fast growing and oldest fish in the population. Without addressing that selectivity we will never see those huge fish again even if their habitats are restored.
Tight lines
Curt
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#431199 - 04/28/08 06:54 AM
Re: Wild or Native????
[Re: Smalma]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 2868
Loc: Discovery Bay, Wa. 98368
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Dammit, Curt! You're popping my bubble!  I think there is just a whole lot of wishin' going on here. Are the genetics still in the remnants of some of the Elwha run? Probably, but so far removed that for all the genetics of the original to rear its mighty head and once again dominate is a ridiculous hope. I also think the conflict of "Let 'em be" and "I want fish" will never end without a complete ban.....and that's just not going to happen. Removing the dams will be good for the fish, and sooner or later the fish will be known as Natives, but more for political reasons than reality. Hail, hail 
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