I just learned that the Skagit tribes are netting the river. They are targeting Sockeye,but as of Wednesday have not reported any of those. What pisses me off is that in just one day of reporting they killed 80 hatchery and 5 wild springers. They are allowed to keep netting until they they kill 50 wild springers. If those numbers continue that would be about 800 total hatchery springers killed before anyone else even has a chance at them. So much for another good june springer fishery. I don't even want to think about what kind of damage is being done to the wild steelhead that are trying to do their thing.

I share the concern that more harm may occur to wild steelhead than to wild spring chinook. The hatchery chinook are there for the taking. When the impacts to wild chinook and steelhead are considered, maybe all parties ought to reconsider the value of continuing the hatchery spring chinook program.

Sg

Doing away with the hatchery springers won't stop them. They will still say they are targeting Sockeye and continue killing mutiple species. At least once all the wild fish are gone we will all be able to fish year round for whatever is left.

The sockeye don't really run in significant numbers until the last week of June. Sounds bogus to me. Not the best management practice to assert they are being targeted in May. I'd like to see them try to target Fraser sockeye 6 weeks ahead of a specific stock's normal timing. Couldn't be done.

Sg

Ban the nets!~!! Bring back the fish traps. That was the old way.
Then the wild fish and hatchery fish that are not the targeted species can be released. GILL nets made from Mono where not made or invented when the treaties where SIGNED.

If the tribes Fish like the White man using present day technology then they should be held to our laws. Case should be closed but it won't be

Fantastico !

Todd???

+100

I wonder how many downstream spawner steelhead they'll scoop up? Being ESA listed, there should be an impact ceiling, I'd think.

Fish on...

Todd

It's sh!t like this that makes me want to take us bass fishing.

Same boat here on the Nooksack.

The Nooksack Tribe has received approval for CnS harvest of 80 chinook out of the North Fork in, I believe, May and June. Apparently, the Lummi Nation has similar netting approval but I have not had time to confirm that.

I wonder how many Steelhead they'll kill in the process.

Anyone interested in getting the Noodlin' for Catfish program going on the South Fork.

Ed

This is not a bogus post.. There have been nets since the closure at tbe end of march.. Drift and Set.. I see it regulary from Sedro Woolley up to Hamilton. This is Bull [censored]... we have had this conversation before about how the indians only take the hooking mortality of the sportfisherman and what not...b.s... considering they have been netting the Native "esa" listed Steelead since the feb..
We get every restriction.. can't take them out of the water blah blah blah.... and here the tribes are netting the steelhead when the river is shut down to preserve them... Pretty straight forward b.s skagit style..

Careful what you wish for.

Remember the "recovery" plan for ESA-listed upriver spring chinook on the CR calls for fisheries systematically killing 15% of the spawners each and every year. 87% of that ESA wild take is allocated to the tribes (13 of the 15 percent) while non-tribals squabble over the remaining 2%.

If a similar plan were imposed on the Skagit, recreational angling for steelhead as we know it today is doomed!

Ohh and don't forget what will happen if you are a white man and get caught keeping one of the endangered species....like a court date..huge fine and confiscation of your boat and possibly your vehicle..

Anyone know a reporter with the times I tried to get our local paper to do a story on this but no one called me back. Maybe if more people knew what was going on it may help

This is a very sad deal!!! From what i understand the tribes presented this fishery at the very last minute at the North of Falcon meetings creating quite a upstir... Seems that it not only will be going on in the skagit river but in the bay as well and it's a gill net fisherey with a Bycatch qouto of 7000 Chinnook.. Would be nice if a repersenative that attended the NOF meetings coulg fill us in on all exacts.

Perhaps the tribes would fish the old way if you would too.

The tribes have a right to fish. For you Goatram and everyone else, its a meer privledge. There is a big difference.
Maybe if you give them there land back, they wont take everything to the treaty bank Goatram.

Fact is they get to net ESA runs until almost extinction. That could mean 1 male and 1 female skagit steelhead left before there done. Then Todd will kill it due to fighting it to many times with his pink worm. Lol Kidding Todd.

As long as Sporties bitch and dont really band together, nothing will change...Just more griping threads.

Get used to it. The treaty will be around for a long time, no matter how out of date it is.

MC Hammer wrote a song about the treaty and CCA and all other groups that would love to stop it, "Cant touch this".

Do I hate it? Yes, What can I do alone as a sporty? Nothing. I feel helpless too...

These kinds of posts get tiresome. What we DO have is a right to criticize the tribes for their lack of conservation ethics and that's just what we're doing. When public perception affects their bottom line, then conservation will suddenly become more important to them.

Give them their land back? That's about as PC as saying we should just have wiped them out. Then we wouldn't have to deal with it.

Who did the tribes take thier land from? In this world only the strong survive. I am so sick of hearing about how the "the white man took our land" BS! The land belongs to no man. We have been blessed with the oppourtunity to care for it and enjoy it but all of mankind is responsible for F"ing it up. Good luck with this-TBJ

I agree 100%

If they want traditional fishing grounds and rights then they should be held to traditional methods--from the tools and methods they use and even the clothes they have to wear.

Same with the Makah and the whales. If they want to gouge out a cedar log for a boat and use a long stick with a carved bone harpoon point to try and take on a 32000 lb. behemoth like they truly did traditionally, I'm all for it.
That wont happen though because of a few very common human conditions known as 'Lazy,' 'Greedy,' and 'Chickensh*t'.

It pisses me off when Natives try and feed me some "tradition" crap when they use GPS, helicopters, fiberglass boats with jetpumps, and plastic nets.

Oh And FYI, for the newbies, I happen to be native.

It's gonna suck when the the US is eventually conquered by the Chinese. If we are smart, we'll learn from the mistakes of our past, and ask for treaty rights, and ask for 50% of the salmon.

I claim dibs on the first "American Casino" in our region!

Chief Parker



PS. Instead of seeing run down "reservations", the conquered America of the future will have little plots of run down "white trash trailer parks". The TRUE piece of America!

Yup. I got dibs on the second!

Guys, Guys everything okay, at my work I was helping some nooksack tribal members who told me " we release all native fish" in my eventually heated conversation with them about fishery management. One gentlemen wanted to drive home the fact that it was their right over and over. Needless to say, they did no help for my opinion of the tribe, but did tend to strengthen the stereotype for their kind.

Time marches on and so should the treaty. The Tribes are not subsisting on the fish now and they won’t in the future either if the fish are gone. Fish traps allow only what is the intended fish stock to be harvested. All the other unintended fish are still alive and can be set free. The traps are set in one place and can be monitored for compliance. Gill nets if left in the water continue to kill unintended species. The nets need to be removed from the process of catching fish now. Ever notice as the technology improved (i.e. bigger boats, nets, better electronics, and understanding of the process of catching said fish) that the fish stocks in the world have gone down in number.

I am fishing according to the Laws of the land and powers to be. If I break the law the results are fines and other unpleasant things that the judges and state so deem. When they and the commercials are held to the standards and fines as the Sports for illegal catching and retention beyond what is allowed by LAW. Then we can be equal. Now we are not!

Why? Because of a treaty signed 150 years ago! Times change as do the results of our combined actions. If I am to be penalized for the actions of others beyond my control, why shouldn’t they also have to change and have limits?

I did not take their land! The wars where fought before my time and they lost and the treaties where signed. But we do not enforce all provisions of the treaty do we? Some items are not enforced do to changing of the times. Other outdated provisions of the treaty need to change.

Join CCA! I did! AND I WILL NOT GET USED TO IT. Times Change and so should the treaties!

I just got new numbers from last Thursdays 24hr Sockeye fishery in the lower Skagit. 97 springers, 17 of which were wild. 42 wild steelhead that brings their total up to 530 wild steelhead killed this winter/spring (they are going to keep up to 600). 0 Sockeye have been caught so far. The nets are going back in tomorrow for another 24hr kill fest, and have one more day schedueled for the following week. After that they should be out until the last week of June. Why don't the Feds stop them from killing ESA fish?

We are just temporary inhabitants....on this planet...soon enough we will all be gone..

I thought we had this long winded arguement many post ago, "The Indians don't target or take wild fish out of the Skagit" At least that was what was beat into me as I was called a Indian/commercial net basher! Hum

Im an indian/Commercial net basher. But hey, that's just how I roll.

GBL,

We only beat you up when you were getting it wrong. Taking it case by case, the current fishery, if it's really being prosecuted as a sockeye fishery, is a sham because the Baker sockeye don't begin running in good numbers for another 5 weeks. And as a spring chinook fishery, well, as we can see, it's a mixed stock fishery with what may be an acceptable incidental catch of wild spring chinook, but an unacceptable incidental catch of wild steelhead, based on the projected run size. When the facts support criticism, please, feel free to bash away.

Sg

But in all honesty, when is going to be a good idea to just shut down some rivers totally for a couple years? I know the logistics of shutting down an entire river to fishing for sport/commercial/tribal are pretty bad, but I'd rather see that than a river with no fish in a couple years. I mean hell, if they did close the skagit, the WDFW could make a killing handing out tickets to poachers. And maybe that money could go towards conservation, hatchery programs, etc.

Hell, they could make a killing handing out tickets to poachers up there now...but don't. The month of May has always been "poacher season" up there...they got April this year, too.

Fish on...

Todd

Closing down a river system to sportsfishing will benifit poachers as there are fewer eyes on the river. As to the fact of Indain netting, we will not stop it. Save your breath, I am against netting on mixed stocks like everyone else. Truth is if not for native fishing rights there would most likely be LESS fish available. Indains have treaty rights to fish and the state and federal goverments have obligations to provide fish for them to catch. The dam mitigations are not for you and I if we are non-indain. They are an obligation to the treaty indains. When hatcheries were first put in on the lower Columbia prior to the dams they were for comercial fishers not sports fishing. They were to provide abundant comercial catch while the native runs were being deminished due to over fishing. Hatchery facilities were put in above Bonneville after the dam was errected to sustain runs for the treaty tribes. Their rights to fish were not fully utilized until after the Bolt decision. Prior to Bolt the Indains took fewer fish on most systems now they take their full +share and we compete with the non indain comercial for what's left. The indains didn't overfish the Skagit, the comercial and sports fishers did that and then the two dams reduced spawning areas and the numbers dropped until you have what we have today. R.I.P Skagit

not to go off topic but tribal fisherman were using gill nets before us white folk were ever here. They weren't made of nylon with stryrofoam floats but instead used rolled cedar bark tied together for the net and rocks to holdthe bottem down. Other pieces of dried wood floated the top of the net. A few south sound tribes still have these nets on display.

They used to wipe thier asses with corn cobs too! Maybe we should ban them form using toilet paper and make them use corn husks and cobs instead?

I was up there last week and saw few nates drift netting...

I saw one pass on 300yards of water and saw them pull out 5 steelies...

I thought you had to anchor your net at one end at least? The old alaska way....

Netting sucks! But drift netting REALLY SUCKS!

As far as native rights go...... I say...

its a new world. we need to work together to fix it... no special
privilage... SORRY.. you pick... gambling money or fish!

Treaties are laws... and laws were made to be outgrown... and changed...when they are no longer appropriate or fitting,
not to last forever!

I am Irish... my ancestors have been getting the shaft for hundreds of years. You will get used to it... I have...

Earn a living like everyone else I know!

here come the flame throwers... I know I am trying to turn water into wine... But hey... it tastes better!

Salmo-
This post prove my point again.
The Indians have been netting every species of fish in the Skagit for years, if I told you what we used to do to the nets back in the early 70's I would end up in jail.
It is not mis-guided, I lived it from the mid 60's till today when it still goes on.
What pisses me off is the people that make some kind of excuse for the Indian and commercials that somehow it is Ok for them to do what they do becuase we have a treaty or "law" protecting them.
Wrong is wrong, the Indians are just proving the point once again and will get aways with it again. They will kill more Native Steelhead that will end up on some plate on a Northwest Flight to Japan than the whities kill all year in the whole state. And in the end, they will blame whitie and/or the habitat.
No different than the ocean netters using stupid rules and regulations to obliterate whole runs of fish in the ocean. Both US and foreign.

I don't agree with nets period, but I don't think they should be allowed to drift net! It is really common in the Hamilton area, and then again just above the forks. Last fall I was acnchored up looking down to rig up some kwikfish, a tribal boat proceeded to drift net the run I was anchored in. They drug the net over my anchor line and then it caught in my kicker. I was not a happy camper and if I were confident they weren't packing heat I would have trimmed up my jet and given them a cold shower!!

Grass Hopper I will burn beside you.
Times do change and to net and kill the Bycatch that They SAY they are not after is wrong. With fish traps the unintended bycatch can be released unharmed. The Tribes need to step up and do the right thing and fish GREEN and not be killing and selling the fish for Money unless they have a Commercial License. SUBSISTANCE, not profit

What two dams would those be?

Cupo -
How about the Baker complex - Shannon and Baker?

They have effectively eliminate steelhead production from the Baker. In addition flow management from the upper Skagit dams may not be the most favorable to the Skagit steelhead.

BTW -
Is it reallytrue that the Tribes are operating on a cap of 600 dead wild steelhead? As I recall that the pre-season forecast was 5100. Are to expect that the Tribes feel it is acceptable to have a nearly a 12% impact on ESA listed stocked expected to be under-escaped. Hard to make that such actions are conservation base or represent much concern for the wild steelhead resource.

Tight lines
Curt

It appears that a few have finally noticed the elephant in the living room.

"The Indians didn't overfish the Skagit..." hmmmm.....substitute "Skagit" with a number of other rivers....still think it's true?

Of course they overfish the Skagit! It's not rods and reels that are killing the river.....it's nets! Ever notice the difference between when the nets are "in" and when their "out"? Wave the "Treaty Right" flag all you want.....result is the same.....in-river nets are vicious killers of fish, whether targetted or untargetted species....and when they are drifted the fish are picked right off their spawning beds! Indians don't give a crap about "wild" as we term it. They aren't fishing for sport....they're only after the money and hatchery fish bring as much as wild fish.

Wrong is definitely wrong....and Treaty "Right" is one of them. Legalities be damned....the truth is the truth. And on top of that, until the Native take is strickly monitored, I will not believe that we aren't getting screwed.....even by Boldt outlines.

Slab Happy I was referring to the past when I said that they didn't over fish the Skagit. Back when the runs were plentiful Indian fishing was not the the reason for the demise of Skagit river stocks. White commercial over fishing was. That and the two dams on the upper Skagit, Diablo and Gorge which cut off many many miles of habitat on the upper water shed didn't help any.
Please don't think that I, in any way shape of form support in river netting. I don't. I won't even go inside an Indian casino to help support any tribe but many others do. The quickest way to get them to modify their behavior is through their collective wallet.

Actually, I’d say the main reason for the demise of the Skagit stocks is (not surprisingly) the history of land use in the watershed. The beginning of the end probably came when the delta was diked to “reclaim” agricultural lands that grow all those pretty tulips. With that went most of the estuarine rearing habitat for summer and fall chinook. Clearing the massive logjams above Mount Vernon to facilitate river traffic most likely changed the middle river floodplain reaches enough to damage a hell of a lot of amazing coho rearing habitat. Logging throughout the entire watershed changed the sediment budgets of all the tributaries, changes that were felt all the way to the mainstem. There goes all those pool-riffle sequences that spring chinook need to stage and mature in. And steelhead, with their amazing diversity, use every inch of everything at some point in their life history, so they took all those hits, too. And then came the pavement…

This entire discussion feels to me like somebody squabbling over the change in his pocket while somebody quietly slips a $100 bill out of his wallet. The real question is when we as a society are going to decide that the enormous lifestyle changes that fixing these problems would take are worth it. Unfortunately, I’m going to guess never.

But I’d love to see ‘em prove me wrong.

HOW CAN WE FIX IT?????????

I know, but I wanted to see if he knew.



FYI, the three dams on the upper Skagit (Gorge, Diablo, Ross) cut off nearly zero spawning habitat.

Just to clarify a bit, the Skagit sockeye fishery was part of the tribes' original proposal at North of Falcon. At the first joint NOF meeting in March, the co-managers tabled it for later discussion, so that may be why there was the perception it was introduced at the last minute.

You're absolutely right, the fishery does have a bay component with a bycatch ceiling for chinook. Like all fisheries (tribal, non-tribal, etc...), impacts from this fishery were accounted for in the decision-making process. In terms of impacts on Stilly fish, the breakdown of tribal to non-tribal impacts is something along the lines of 27 percent tribal and the rest non-tribal. I can get specific numbers if you want.

It’s been more than 30 years since Swinomish had a sockeye fishery here, and this fishery is the result of many years of enhancement efforts by the tribes and Seattle City Light that have increased the return to Baker Lake.

You can see the entire list of agreed-to fisheries at http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/tribal/2008-09agreement.pdf

If you have questions, feel free to call WDFW, or the individual tribes. Each tribe has a hotline with up-to-date information about their fisheries: 360-466-4112 (Swinomish and Sauk-Suiattle); 360-854-7095 (Upper Skagit).

~~~~~~~
Kari Neumeyer
North Sound Information Officer
Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission
360-424-8226
kneumeyer@nwifc.org
www.nwifc.org

Okiedude, I'm glad you asked.

Here's my personal list:

1. Tear down the dikes. I think research has fairly conclusively shown that lost tidal channel habitat in the estuary is the major constraining factor on overall chinook production. But that will obviously cost a hell of a lot of farmland. Are you ready to be the guy that tells Fir Island farmers they're gonna get wet? Me neither. But it seems to me we have enough potatoes and not enough chinook. The same goes for upriver dikes. People will have to accept that floodplain living is a bad idea, and let that river go where it wants to.

2. Build a time machine and go back to convince folks that an unlogged watershed will benefit their great-grandchildren. I believe that lots of subtle changes from all that logging have destroyed a lot of the river's inherent productivity. Without a time machine, there's not much we can do now except stop the ongoing logging and wait 500 years or so.

3. Reverse commercial and residential sprawl, and build compact communities in their place (out of the floodplain).

See where this is going? It will take a dramatic change to make much of a difference. Most likely, we'll just continue on about the same path while wild salmon slowly become a museum piece. But I hope not.

Kari,

Thank you for your post. I will check with the Tribes regarding what kind of fishery is going on. It's weird to say they're fishing sockeye when the sockeye won't begin arriving for another five weeks. And while chinook impacts may have been accounted for at NOF, as you know, NOF ignores steelhead, and the stated steelhead impacts in this thread, if correct, are high for a population that returned at a level less than its escapment goal.

FYI, the sockeye return to the Baker River, where Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has two hydropower dams, not to be confused with Seattle City Light's (SCL) three dams on the upper Skagit River. The Tribes and agencies have worked with PSE, not SCL, to restore the Baker sockeye run.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.