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#434899 - 05/17/08 10:15 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: slabhunter]
EarthMan Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 88
No bullets my friend. No bullets.

They are dead.

No bullets.

They were not killed by fishermen.

They died of something.

The evidence says heatstroke. You don't have to believe it. The article I referenced at the start of this thread answers the questions posed here.

Why is it so hard to believe that the government is incompetent and that they blamed fishermen in general for their incompetence?

You don't buy it, I don't get it. Oh well.

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#434941 - 05/18/08 02:43 AM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: EarthMan]
Magicfly Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 3359
Loc: Pasco Bulldog country
Nope, I'm still not buying it.

Mf
_________________________
Born again with IRON MAIDEN!

"Go hard, today Can't worry the past, coz that yesterday". GO COUGS!!!



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#434977 - 05/18/08 02:36 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Magicfly]
EarthMan Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 88
Buying what? Read the article, all three pages. I know you haven't.

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#434981 - 05/18/08 02:53 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: EarthMan]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
EM, i'm picking up on vibes. the vibes that you swing towards the tree hugging, bark humping area of the subject. my first clue was your moniker. after that things fell into place. who needs to read all three pages? the entire affair was huge joke! the punchline incase you missed it, the feds were letting go 99% of the seals caught. real effective huh? out of the 6 that died(thank god) only one was targeted to be removed. just think the other 5 would still be out there right now filling thier guts.
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#434982 - 05/18/08 03:08 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
EarthMan Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 88
Dude you are so clueless.

I have never seen a sealion problem that I couldn't fix with a box of 180 grain 30-06 bullets.

What the hell do you think the point is here?

You should be indignant that the feds and the states involved have tried to blame "US" for their screwups, and that the "tree huggers" were using this against us.

You and I both know that by killing a few sea lions at bonneville we could establish a more healthy balance.

Point your emotions where it will do some good. I await your apology. Yeah...I know...when pigs fly. You don't mind if I bag some of them flying pigs with my 12 guage pump, do ya?

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#434987 - 05/18/08 04:26 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: EarthMan]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
i'm sorry, i apologise.... your right, i'm wrong. i'm just a small guy of 5'9" buck 70 dripen wet. your scarying me..... i was only making conversation, geeez!
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#434988 - 05/18/08 04:31 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
EarthMan Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 88
non sequitur

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#434989 - 05/18/08 04:37 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: EarthMan]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
There have always been hundreds of sea lions in the Columbia River...hundreds, always...and this includes long, long before there were any dams.

They went all the way up to Celilo Falls...where just like at Bonneville, there were hundreds of sea lions and lots of salmon corked up trying to get past the falls.

The only thing that is different is that there is a remnant of fish compared to what was, and just like any other user group, the sea lions are fighting for their share of the crumbs...they're not doing anything different than they ever have, there just aren't hardly any fish left anymore...and that most certainly is not the fault of the sea lions.

Fish on...

Todd
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#434992 - 05/18/08 04:44 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Todd]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
you have a good point there.... but, i garuntee those seals back then were being harvested by the native people of the time. there wasn't alot of tree huggers back then blocking the progress of sealion carnage! plus there was a hundred million fish returning back then to. not the trinket returns we have today.
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#434994 - 05/18/08 05:00 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I'm sure you're right...but they didn't harvest them to protect salmon from them, they harvested 'em to eat...when there were millions of salmon around, it didn't matter too much who was eating how many...

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#434995 - 05/18/08 05:11 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Todd]
EarthMan Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 88
All true Todd. Whether anything is done or not is a matter of philosophy. But since we have changed everthing; damming the river, fishing, population, polution...we are already changed everything from the past. We now have choices to make.

There are just consequences to those choices. Doing nothing and letting the sea lions eat samon and sturgeon is a choice. Trying to manage the consequences of an altered environment is a choice. The "plan" to control the sea lions was part of such a plan. Hatcheries are also part of a plan to deal with our current reality. Right or wrong, there are plenty of downsides no matter what choice is made.

I just didn't like the botched sea lion control plan being blamed on the fishing public.

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#435002 - 05/18/08 06:48 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: EarthMan]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
i do know that the name for a river near by was called the seal river. thats the name the natives called it. later the whiteman renamed it the washougal.
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#435005 - 05/18/08 07:35 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
Magicfly Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 3359
Loc: Pasco Bulldog country
I heard seals taste like chicken. zip

Mf


Edited by Magicfly (05/18/08 07:36 PM)
Edit Reason: wink wink
_________________________
Born again with IRON MAIDEN!

"Go hard, today Can't worry the past, coz that yesterday". GO COUGS!!!



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#435006 - 05/18/08 08:03 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Magicfly]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
no MF, its a heavy pork flavor.... i've been getting some fresh stuff...
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#435042 - 05/19/08 12:44 AM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Todd]
GRB Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: Todd
There have always been hundreds of sea lions in the Columbia River...hundreds, always...and this includes long, long before there were any dams.

They went all the way up to Celilo Falls...where just like at Bonneville, there were hundreds of sea lions and lots of salmon corked up trying to get past the falls.

The only thing that is different is that there is a remnant of fish compared to what was, and just like any other user group, the sea lions are fighting for their share of the crumbs...they're not doing anything different than they ever have, there just aren't hardly any fish left anymore...and that most certainly is not the fault of the sea lions.

Fish on...

Todd



I would not agree with your points.

California Sea Lions have never been threatened or reduced in historic populations....and then...

Sea Lions were protected by the MMPA and have increased their population by about 2 1/2 times. In the mean time the ocean has been harvested down including food fish such as herring and sardines.

Sea lions learn and adapt well. In the past 8 years since Bonneville has been reopened to Spring Chinook fishing the concentration of Sea Lions has increased big time. Same goes for the falls at Oregon City on the Willamette. 10 years ago it was rare to see sea lions near the falls. Now there are at least a dozen there every day.

And BTW, next time you hear someone tell you there is fossil evidence of sea lions as far up as Celilo, remember that was an inland sea when those fossils were formed.

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#435068 - 05/19/08 12:00 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: GRB]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
These aren't sea lion fossils I'm talking about...I'm talking about sea lions...and not in an inland sea, but in the Columbia River at Celilo Falls, and the Dalles, and Cascade Falls, too...

http://www.cbbulletin.com/Free/275102.aspx

Feedback: Researching Columbia River’s Historic Sea Lion And Seal Populations

--- From Bill McMillan, Concrete, WA:

To the editor of the Columbia Basin Bulletin:


Today (May 9) I read your online Columbia Basin Bulletin about the Sea Lion Mystery and noted what is a common error regarding the historic distribution of seals and sea lions in the Columbia River.

Your article "Sea Lion Mystery: 'How Did The Animals Die And How Did The Doors Get Closed?'" http://www.cbbulletin.com/Free/273912.aspx states:

"Preliminary data this year indicates 73 different California sea lions, and at least 17 Steller sea lions and two harbor seals, have visited the dam, located 146 river miles from the river's mouth at the Pacific Ocean. At least 38 of the California sea lions seen this year have been also been observed at the dam in previous years.

"The California sea lions, which rarely swam so far upstream historically, typically begin leaving the Columbia in May, bound for breeding grounds off the Southern California coast. It's theorized that big spring salmon runs to the Columbia early in the decade caught the marine mammals attention. Male sea lions forage up the coast between breeding seasons."

For the past 8 months I have been working with several other authors regarding what historic habitat conditions were in the Columbia River Basin above Bonneville Dam (including in Canada) at the time of 1800 and to similarly develop a more accurate history of what the distribution and numbers of salmon and steelhead were than has commonly been used for the past 20-25 years (11-16 million salmon and steelhead). I have been the author responsible for searching the historic literature regarding the earliest available Columbia River records. Of course, this has included a particularly thorough scrutiny of the Lewis and Clark expedition journals in 1805 and 1806, and those of David Thompson who was the first Euro-American to sight and travel the Upper Columbia River in 1809 that eventually included his travel to the mouth of the Columbia in 1811.


The Lewis and Clark expedition members who kept journals (3 others besides Lewis and Clark) were particularly struck by the large numbers of "sea otters" when they reached Celilo Falls in October of 1805. It was not until their winter at Fort Clatsop that they came to realize their misidentification of these animals, and in February of 1806 Lewis and Clark wanted to correct their records regarding what these "sea otters" actually were -- which they thereafter called "seals," and in one instance a "sea calf." The Indians they consulted with through the winter at Fort Clatsop had set them straight. They concluded these animals likely included several different "kinds," or what we would now call species, from these discussions with the Indians.


It is understandable that Lewis and Clark initially thought these animals were sea otters. These were the most valuable animals of the era that brought fantastic prices in China. American ships had begun to take part in the trade for them from the Indians in the 1790s. The Lewis and Clark expedition's purpose was to stake out America's claim to the land and to stimulate prospective pioneers to head for the West to find its economic opportunities. If sea otters were in the Columbia, these were vitally important to document for their opportunity. At Celilo Falls, The Dalles, at the Cascades of the Columbia (today's Cascade Locks), and at the entry of the Washougal River they saw particularly large concentrations of these mixed species of seal-like animals that undoubtedly included both California and Stellar's sea lions along with harbor seals, and very likely some northern fur seals as well whose historic distribution is now known to be much further south than once considered (to California).


For Lewis and Clark to be impressed by the abundance of an animal, which was remarked numerous times regarding the "seals" they saw (particularly so at Celilo Falls), it would have meant animals in the thousands. This is remembering that they had seen the herds of bison, the remarkable abundance of salmon, and waterfowl so numerous near their Vancouver encampment that they complained they could not sleep at night for all the noise. When they said "numerous" they meant it in a way we can now hardly imagine fish and wildlife. Not only did they see large numbers of these animals at these particular points of great abundance, but all along on their way downstream in the autumn of 1805, and once again on their upstream journey in March/April of 1806.


Several times in 1805 they shot these animals but each time they sank before they could recover them. Like for Audubon, this was the primary means for collection of animals from which to make detailed descriptions, which was another primary purpose of the expedition -- to collect and describe the flora and fauna. In February of 1806 they expressed their quiet frustration at not being able to better describe at least one of these "seals" for lack of collecting one.


During David Thompson's travel down the Mid- to Lower-Columbia, in July of 1811 he also initially encountered "seals" at Celilo Falls and was surprised by their abundance, there and elsewhere. At one point he and his men were quite amused by them.


In September of 1836, the naturalist John Kirk Townsend recorded in his journals: "We see great numbers of seals as we pass along. Immediately below the Dalles they are particularly abundant, being attracted thither by the vast shoals of salmon which seek the turbulent water of the river. We occasionally shoot one of them as he raises his dog-like head above the surface, but we make no use of them; they are only valuable for the large quantity of oil which they yield." He is describing here the area downstream of Celilo about 10 miles.


I have estimated from these consistently similar descriptions of "numerous" and "great numbers," that seals and sea lions in mixed presence cumulatively numbered 100 per mile with concentrations of 1,000s of them together at those points where salmon and steelhead were particularly concentrated. In all accounts they were the most numerous between The Dalles and Celilo Falls, which of course, is where the fish were most concentrated. That is 200 miles up the Columbia. Doing the math, 100/mile x 200 miles = 20,000 cumulative seals and sea lions. They were described in great numbers in October, November, February, March, April, July and September. It is apparent they were in the Columbia River virtually year around. I suspect that up until the great commercial fisheries began on the Columbia in the 1860s, that along with the salmon and steelhead collapses by the late 1870s and early 1880s, the seals and sea lions were largely eradicated as competitors. Until that time,

there may well have been mixed resident and migratory populations of these animals in the Columbia that likely included breeding areas near the Columbia River mouth for both seals and sea lions.


It is apparent from these histories that seals and sea lions were once extremely abundant in the Columbia River, may have eaten somewhere between 5-15 million salmon and steelhead annually (depending on how many fish they consumed or lethally injured per day), and yet there remained enough salmon and steelhead to supply the tribal fisheries throughout the Columbia Basin as well as the abundant populations of bears (grizzly and black), wolves, coyotes, cougars, bobcats, lynx, ospreys, eagles, mergansers, American dippers, cormorants, terns, loons, herons, and on and on, that all subsisted in part on differing life histories of salmon and steelhead within the Columbia Basin.


All of this, of course, demonstrates how low the commonly assumed estimate of 11-15 million historic salmon and steelhead that the Columbia River produced at the time of Lewis and Clark is. This is largely the reason for the development of a more accurate salmon and steelhead history for the Columbia Basin.


I simply wanted to bring this to your attention, long as it may be, to help dispel the continuing perpetuation of myths, commonly mistaken as science, that have not taken a good look at what the actual history provides. For one thing, common sense alone tells us that Bonneville Dam is not unique to the history of the Columbia River regarding the creation of a passage delay. The Columbia Basin was historically noted as particularly high gradient for such a large river which included continuous rapids and two particularly large falls on the mainstem -- Kettle and Celilo. However, Celilo was as far as the seals and sea lions got, and they targeted Celilo in immense numbers (likely Willamette Falls as well but no records early enough to estimate how many). We could only wish there were still 20,000 seals and sea lions in the Columbia. It would tell us that we once again had historic run sizes of salmon and steelhead (likely between 35-50 million, not 11-15 million) that human procreation and agricultural/industrial civilization, not animal predation, will never allow us to recover.
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#435085 - 05/19/08 02:45 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
thats a very interesting read, mostly fabricated i believe. what were lewis and clark smoking? calling 1000lb seals a river otters. otters go what? 40lbs drippen wet. huge difference in body wieght, plus seals have no tails.
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#435096 - 05/19/08 03:57 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
You don't have to believe it, but I'll take eye witness accounts over someone who just says "I don't believe it" every day...pretty easy call to make, so far as I'm concerned.

Fish on...

Todd
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#435115 - 05/19/08 05:35 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Todd]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4898
Loc: in the mass production zone
todd just given you a yank! i like reading the journals of old. everytime i fish the columbia my imagination tries to picture the place back in its pre whiteman era. the true flows, celio falls and its thunderous roar, the 100# kings. its trully sad to see what we've done to it.
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#435129 - 05/19/08 06:09 PM Re: Bonneville Sea Lions Died of Heatstroke! [Re: Brewer]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Back in the '90's when I was over at Gonzaga for law school the reservoirs got drawn down so much that the top portion of Celilo was actually whitewaer again...I didn't have a chance to go up and see it, but I saw it on the news and even though it was just a portion of the rapids, I can imagine it must have been a pretty awesome sight when it was fully going...

Fish on...

Todd
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