Carcassman, although you may have a valid concern, its much longer term. We arent going to kill off living people to save the fish. People have been concerned about the population explosion and scarcity of resources for years. The growth in population in europe is nearly stagnant. Its the underdeveloped nations who have been starving and continue to produce more offspring. They also pollute more. Large families were essentially playing the death odds in the old days and the larger families, were ready labor. In regards to a shortage of fish, i can give you this example. When CCA began in texas, they had 1000 fishing guides. When they brought the fish back, they had to hire guides from out of state and the number of guides rose to 3000. If we fight over politicians to the point where nothing gets done, then we will have seafood shortage. CCA is involved with more than just coastal states. They join with other orgs to develope policies to keep healthy stocks of fish throughout the world, including Tuna, which are being raised in pens in Australia and fed with sardines. Salmon prey. (more overfishing of Tuna is part of the problem.)

Dino Rossi, is the only gov candidate in a long time, that has ever balanced a budget without raising taxes, Gary locke budget increases ran around 21% growth. We are in hock right now. Union membership is down under democrats, except for government jobs. Thats not the direction we need to go. One of the largest business sectors in this state, is export. Yet we cant get trucks into the port or out because the roads are clogged with traffic. They've done almost nothing to keep freight infrastructure competitive with other ports like Portland and Oakland and LA. The commercial fishing industry is shrinking because of state policies of the past and the present. During the days of Gary Locke, the evergreen freedom foundation could not even obtain the total amount of state employees. Gary lockes office didnt know. If memory serves, we had to pass, by initiative the law to allow the state auditor, Brian Sontag the authorization to conduct real world financial audits in this state. Even republican talk show host in this state support him. Government must be accountable with our money. Why is that democrats would not pass that legislation on their own?

I joined CCA. I do believe that nets and overharvest policies, greatly affect the fishing. One graph I saw, showed that commercial fishing peaked in the mid 1870-1880's. I also know the Boldt decision dramatically affected sport fishing. But, I have also seen the other side. Although the dams began in the early 1900's and fishing remained good into the 60's and perhaps beyond, they were still building Dams on the Columbia river system into the 70's. Each and every dam took its toll as a percentage of the fish leaving and returning. Early on, I didnt see that covering habitat with 50 or 200 feet of water had an effect on where fish spawned. I wasnt aware early on, that the snake river dams were built with full water levels on both sides. If you saw the 60 minutes show recently, it was obvious the feds know a lot of fish die on the trip down river. You can produce fish in hatcheries keep the numbers up, but those fish are not expected to reproduce on their own. Many people here, from oregon rely heavily on the columbia. Its a priority. Selective harvest is a priority for cca, some legislators, some congressmen and one gubernatorial candidate has an extensive position paper on. I also see dams on the lewis and cowlitz that are fairly low, that effectively stop the migration of salmon and steelhead. A short river is no better than a small hatchery. Bill Herzog recently pointed out, the fish we continue to spawn in the hatchery system are not aggressive biters. Nor are we getting the biggest fish back. You dont breed trophy fish from jack sized adults. We arent getting help, our hatcheries are being cut back. Thats not reform. Thats funding.

When CCA succeeded in getting rid of the nets in Florida and other places, were they attacking the primary (over) harvester? You can take the nets (non-Indian) out of Washington, out of the Columbia and it will still only be a small part of the total harvest.

It is true that the fish being saved will be ones that were just about ready to spawn, because the GN fleet fishes on mature fish. But, for most of the Chinook nad probably much of the coho, the harvest is not local and not by nets.

The "good old days" of the 50s-70s were fisheries that were already on depleted runs. Getting back to the 50s is only partway. Back when Westport was booming what was going on in Tofino and Uculet? Was Oak Bay running all the charters they do now? Back at least in the 80s Canada was targetting US (read Washington and Oregon) coho in sport and troll fisheries in order to get a better US-Canada Treaty.

In the good old days there was a lot more fish production in tributaries that now are in the suburbs.

I hope we succeed in getting all fisheries to be selective. But until the habitat issues are also solved all it will do is transfer catch from a net to a hook.

And, getting back to the inital thread of Dino's position on fisheries in WA. Until we take iron-clad action to protect and restore habitat; and this will have to involve "locking up" land and water so that it can produce fish and other resources. Lacking that, we need to invest and heavily support a hatchery system if we want to have fish around.

You can be for removing CR gillnets for the reason that they are nonselective, and kill many ESA listed species.
But if you think removing them will recover CR salmon runs, then your in for a real disappointment, you could end all harvest, including the ocean, and recovery would just be a dream.
85% of all CR mortality happens at the dams.
Want to put more fish in the CR?
Then remove the four lower Snake River dams.
It''s not harvest, it's habitat.

Every politician is in some group's pocket. You just want to make sure that they are in the pockets of the groups that do something for you.

Even if Dino gets elected he is a lame duck. With a legislature full of Democrats how far do you think Dino will get with all of his promises?

Even if Dino gets elected he is a lame duck. With a legislature full of Democrats how far do you think Dino will get with all of his promises?
quote


There are a number of states that prove otherwise. Texas, Mass. CA. there are probably others. Reagan. Clinton, McCain.

Carcassman, visit the website and read the position papers. They have a fairly new chapter in Olympia. ccapnw.org

Things are going well and growing.

Todd,
If you think that the average democrat is for out door activities, then you are clueless. I guarantee that you can talk all about fishing, hunting or wear fur to every republican gathering I've been to. I would love to see you wear a fur coat to a democrat convention in Seattle, and then start talking about how great the elk you shot tasted. You might make it out alive.

If you think development regulations are so bad, then surely you have definite solutions that will work. I would love to see them. What I see are liberal county good-doers insisting on tactics that work in reverse. Tack road impact fees of $4000.00 on people living 50 feet from a freeway, since they will spend more time on congested roads and $250.00 fees on people living in Eatonville, and then wonder why growth is moving outward. I live in town, 2 minutes from a freeway, with 24 hour bus service, 5 minutes from the sounder train, in an area 99% developed, about 20% multifamily and 65% with small lots. But when those of us with larger lots want to redevelop we find out that we have a lot size requirement that is larger than 90% of the growth area. There are areas 20 minutes from the free way with no bus service that have 5 times the denity allowed. Why, because the county wants to spread out growth. What we need are politicans that are not after the big guys because they are easy targets, but will start requiring people who live on hood canal hook up to sewer and outlaw nitrates in the area. Politicans that will make all riverfront owners put in dry wells, rather than making developers 2 miles away spend a hundred thousand extra on systems that have a negligable effect.
I am waiting with great anticipation for you to tell me of all the great laws Christine Gregoire enacted and how they will save us. Please, rather than just resort to telling us how dumb we all are, tell us what the democratic candidate has done that is so great....

Todd,
If you think that the average democrat is for out door activities, then you are clueless. I guarantee that you can talk all about fishing, hunting or wear fur to every republican gathering I've been to. I would love to see you wear a fur coat to a democrat convention in Seattle, and then start talking about how great the elk you shot tasted. You might make it out alive.

If you think development regulations are so bad, then surely you have definite solutions that will work. I would love to see them. What I see are liberal county good-doers insisting on tactics that work in reverse. Tack road impact fees of $4000.00 on people living 50 feet from a freeway, since they will spend more time on congested roads and $250.00 fees on people living in Eatonville, and then wonder why growth is moving outward. I live in town, 2 minutes from a freeway, with 24 hour bus service, 5 minutes from the sounder train, in an area 99% developed, about 20% multifamily and 65% with small lots. But when those of us with larger lots want to redevelop we find out that we have a lot size requirement that is larger than 90% of the growth area. There are areas 20 minutes from the free way with no bus service that have 5 times the denity allowed. Why, because the county wants to spread out growth. What we need are politicans that are not after the big guys because they are easy targets, but will start requiring people who live on hood canal hook up to sewer and outlaw nitrates in the area. Politicans that will make all riverfront owners put in dry wells, rather than making developers 2 miles away spend a hundred thousand extra on systems that have a negligable effect.
I am waiting with great anticipation for you to tell me of all the great laws Christine Gregoire enacted and how they will save us. Please, rather than just resort to telling us how dumb we all are, tell us what the democratic candidate has done that is so great....

It is not that one party or the other will do what is necessary to protect/restore the environment. The Ds and Rs will do as little as they can while still reatining the support of voters.

As noted above by Krijack, we know at least some of the things that need to be done to Hood Canal. Any bets on when sewers will go in???

Krijack, you kinda have a good point on the whole party line use of the outdoors, and I can see the line drawn with my own friends. I also notice the TYPE of sportsmen that those lines mean, I believe that in general liberals seem to see the environment as a "whole" and get the picture of how it actually works. My right wing buddies (and not even all that far right) DONT GET IT! You cannot manage a resource of ANY kind by working just one or two angles, and running them like industrial machines…. you cant in other words run the resource to make a profit from it...seems like an oxymoron though doesn’t it?
-and to a lesser point, about your quotes on taxes, roads, and what not. everyone should remember HOW LONG it takes to build even a 3 lane (2/ 1 turn) road, let alone a freeway. Also remember how much its costs now versus the life of the project...oh and don’t forget that an average population, at our rate of growth will DOUBLE every 7-10 years. You cant keep up with roads like that, SMART communities, Good transit and CONSERVATION are some of the keys of the puzzle. Not saying you are wrong, many points are right but lets take Tacoma for example, do we really need to be punching 500 homes on Pacific Hwy, way out in the middle of BF nowhere? NO, but someone wanted to sell their land to retire and then one thing lead to another and then there are so many people, they need a wall-mart (final nail in coffin) great! (guess who would support those developmental steps)
You know and that is just the type of crap Dino would promote. Its not a pick of people vs. the resource, its our current practices. Small changes add up and will not really change the "posh" lifestyle we are used to.
The thing that really Krispies my critters though can be this board…as well as others, the web is a great way for people that know "just enough to be dangerous" to spew their crap. Sorry to call some of you out but its the few...well maybe some more that like to just point the blame. THERE IS A CYCLE to things children, remember?
Our waters have many problems and are largely the same across the board, the Hood is getting the raw end of the deal because of a DAM, lack of any other real flushing, and a large hump under the bridge doesn’t help either. The damn is the OBVIOUS ONE, oh there are Indians though….so….lets blame them! Lets OVERLOOK the ...literally….hundreds or more "whitey" septics that are leaking and not being fixed. Lets OVERLOOK the overwhelming amounts of nitrogen and/or O2 depriving elements that are being washed down rivers and creeks from current logging practices (need I remind you.. werehouser, Chehalis, storm? Try googling it) and alder run-off, lets also OVERLOOK all the crap we put on our lawns that over-nitrify, eat oxygen, raise temps and rob water from the resource.
While we are at it lets OVERLOOK ocean trawlers, and the commercial industry as a whole right down to the influx of diss-respectful sh&tty-A$$ guides about nowadays.
--SIDE NOTE-- let me just say this resource is not a guarantee, just because your grandpa, and father and cousin and dog or whoever where allowed to rape and pillage on the resource with a "fishing was great, the limit was 3 fish a day 7 days a week. We were the Salmon capital of the world." kinda attitude DOES NOT mean the you are entitled to the same!!
Its that crap like oldfisherman is spewing , lets keep up that line of thinking because I know of at least 4 dams on major rivers around here and last I heard the runs weren’t too good. Pick up a book, hell, read a couple Google pages on it, do SOME sort of research before you throw a lame-ass dull excuse into a real knife fight. you can be old and afraid or intimidated by phones, and games, and technology, but you should NEVER be afraid of learning more, especially about your passions...SO PICK UP A BOOK!
As for the others touting the dino flag of hypocrisy, your probably the later of the examples of my friends....it makes me hurt to hear the crap outta your mouths or keyboards but that’s the game right? the two opposing sides to find the neutral middle...I just wish some people woulda done their homework.
as for my .02. Put it in your pipe and smoke it a$$hats

Swing,
I think you misunderstood me on the roads. My problem isn't so much with road impact fees, it is with encouraging growth where there are no resources. Pierce County does this with a bunch of policies. One is higher fees in closer and lesser fees out farther. The idea is that the one in closer impacts high traffic zones more. That is true, but the result is that more people move out farther, and then, as you said, so does commerce.
Another motivation to move out farther are the combination of subdivision improvements and maximum lot sizes. To make a division work, the developer is required to install sidewalks, parks, wider roads, at the same time is required to build smaller lots. The result is small lots at high costs and low permination. Little things like no sidewalks or on only one side of the road, 30 foot right of ways and no parks would result in larger lots sizes and more permability. The same amount of land being developed, just better enviormentally. As it is, every new home already pays a park impact for new parks and park infastructure. A furter result is that if you want a new home with a lot bigger than 4200 sq ft, you are pushed out farther into the country. There is a huge influx of huge, luxery homes on 5 to 20 acre lots that went on in the last 5 years. Most of these people would have been happy on a 1/2 lot, but there is no such thing allowed in the new zoning code. As a result, they bought up weyerhauser land (subdivion allowed under the democrates) and will continue to do so. We used a little used provision that allowed us to subdivide 38 acres in to one acre lots and keep the remaining 30 acres in open space. There is a creek that runs through the open space and deer run freely. If most of the county officals had their way, the provision would not have been allowed and we would have been kept to 4- 10 acre lots with only a small wetland buffer. The area would have been cleared, fenced, roads punched in, and the habitat destroyed. We were able to use joint driveways off the existing road and our impact is going to be negliable with twice the density. Weryerhauser could have done the same thing, but the provisions only allow up to 8 lots and encourage large lot divisions. So, they gated off several thousand acres, used the same poorly designed, gravel roads, and sold them off as 20 acre lots.


I tried to point out that this was going to happen to the county growth officals, but all they could see was a lower density. Less people is better right? At the same time they are dumping millions into an area with 3 to 4% unemployment and discouraging multifamily. They tout growth, but try to stop it at the same time. While you like to think liberals think broader, my experience says they are just as narrow thinking as most conservatives. They are convinced that sewers, wider roads and smaller lots are the greatest thing, then start panicking about recharge, not seeing a possible connect between the two.

My opinion is that the hard right does focus on one aspect, but the radical left does the same thing, just in a different fashion. They try to take the enviroment on as a whole, but leave out the human aspect entirely. Economic impact don't matter, direct cost doesn't matter, effects on standard of living don't matter, human nature is ignored. As Todd implied, people who have children have no regard for enviroment. Everyone should be a gay vegan living in a downtown seattle condo, walk to work and be happy paying 90% of there wages to the govenment.

Both sides have extremes and neither are favorable.

I still do agree with you Kri and now i see what you where getting at, it will come down to the develpoing with green in mind and understanding thatits not the savior but a tool helping fix the larger problem. I just hate when the blame gets thrown around quick, we all have vested interests in the problem and contribute to it, so until we all open our eyes to our own hypocrisy then the finger will continue to point!

bhah!! its all because of warmer seas and JELLYFISH blooms...thats my finger pointing for the declining salmon stock

What's Gregoir's position on this? She gave us nothing but minimal lip service in her first term. At least Rossi is addressing the issue. Obviously he will be alienating the tribes and commies with his stand.

Glad you asked, SlabQuest... You can read more here, but she's ahead of Rossi on this one, including specifically asking the WDFW commissioner to prepare plans to convert non-tribal fishing to selective, not just to consider selective fishing a tool, but to convert.

There's a previous thread here, with a link to ifish with a scan of her letter.

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/445334/1

Rossi is also in favor of selective harvest and his positions have been posted here. It took CG almost four years to get off the dime. She had plenty of chance, last year to make the case for the 440,000 dollars BPA grant for equipment to test, that would allow selective harvest. The WDFW turned down the grant. Brian Baird and Norm Dicks have gone on record long before the governor, in favor of selective harvest. The tribes have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to democrats. No conflict of interest there. What happens if the state and the tribes go to court? Oh ya, I forgot we did and we lost and now CG is discussing other kinds of trades because they still dont want to spend the money on the culverts, that the state put in, that affect migration and imprinting of naitve fish. When will she really care about fish? When she doesnt catch any. She is going to put sportsmen back in the shoebox after the election. There will be no payoff.

Dino Rossi's position on fishing is on his knees with the BIAW's sack bouncing off his chin.

Like all Republican's, he can be counted on to say anything, mean none of it, and screw the citizens while lining the pockets of his contributors.

You see, to be a Republican candidate all you have to be a shameless liar.

Just look at Caribou Barbie, or John McCain't.

For those without short memories, just think Bush.............

Evidently it's okay because Charlie Rangel's a liar, too.

Is Charlie Rangel running for govenor of our state? I think not. Rossie is and if you believe half of what he or his ads say than you need some help.