That hurt Sg. Believe it or not some of us conservatives understand things too.

J7,

Actually the cost is not relevant to the issue. The issue that thoughtful people are engaged in is one of personal freedom. Either we should decide how other people manage their personal end of life experience, or we should let each individual exercise their personal freedom and decide for themselves how to manage it. Weighing in about the cost of the drugs is called deflection and avoiding discussing the core or root issue.

Same with insurance and insurance companies. That is NOT the issue. That's tangential deflection, trying to shift the subject of the debate. Let the individual patient make his decision, including whatever the insurance ramifications are or are not.

Anyone bringing up tangential issues is guilty of trying to change the subject, and steer clear of the central issue which is personal freedom to make one's own end of life management decision. I don't care what your moral belief about this issue is, please don't try to impose your morals on me. I don't give a [censored] whether you have life insurance coverage for suicide or not, and I don't expect you to be butting into my life insurance issues either, along with any other of by business.

Same with family. While I respect my family's right to each of their individual opinions and beliefs, I expect each and every one of them to equally respect my personal beliefs, and either support my personal decisions or show some respect and butt out of my final personal business. That part in the ad where Martin Sheen says someone could commit assisted suicide without their spouse's knowledge or consent should be seen as a positive thing, not negative. What is it that some dumb fvcks don't understand about personal freedom being personal, not family or community and sure as hell not governmental.

BWP,

As stated emphatically above, the health care system is also irrelevant. You're just side-stepping the central issue. You favor personal freedom or you oppose it. Take a stand. For freedom I would hope. Go ahead and be afraid of assisted suicide if you want, and don't do it yourself. What I object to is that you seem to think it is you who should decide what I should fear and why I should fear it. I'm willing to let you decide what to be afraid of. How about you give me the same respect and not be constraining my personal freedom? I hate it when anyone would meddle in my personal business. Fvckin' busybodies need to get out of other's lives and take care of themselves.

Slab,

I know your experience well and respect you for your decision and action. A good dog is part of the family. Putting my retrievers down tore my guts out for days. Some things in life, and death, are hard, but nonetheless necessary.

AM,

Nice to be on the same page with you again.

Good post Parker. But again, insurance is a different issue, and an irrelevant distraction from the core issue of personal freedom. I don't expect to still be carrying life insurance in a few more years, but even if I did, I wouldn't let that over-ride the issue of my personal freedom. For those concerned about it, a lot of life insurance policies don't cover suicide in the first two years of the policy.

Krijack,

We're back to you thinking you have the right to limit my personal freedom in a matter that concerns me but doesn't concern you. What's that make you, a facist? I still recommend that you let yourself die writhing away in pain, but get your personal values and opinions out of my life, and let me decide for myself. What you're suggesting makes you the most dangerous kind of citizen in my estimation. You're only willing to let me live with the freedoms you think I should have, and that I shouldn't be allowed any that you don't approve of. I'd like not to take this to a personal level, but it is personal because it appears that you insist on injecting yourself into the most personal aspect of my life even tho whatever I do in this matter has no possible way of personally affecting you. Can you even see the lop-sided nature of the control of freedom that is at issue here?

All of your slippery slope arguments are more about dodging the core issue and less about facing the fact that your position is one wherein you're OK with enforcing your personal values over mine in a matter that affects me but not you. Nobody's making you choose assisted suicide. Your position causes me to see you as the enemy of personal freedom. Can you assemble a clear, cogent, and convincing defense that it isn't?

BTW, thank you for participating in this discussion.

Freespool,

Good points. I agree that it seems to be religious zealots who tend to think that they are the one who should have the right to decide how their fellow citizens manage their personal business, whether it's end of life, abortion, gay marriage, but they forgive priests who sexually abuse children. Sheesh!

Thanks everyone who took the time to contribute!

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo,
I really don't have an argument against the fact that I am imposing my beliefs on you. That's the problem I struggle with in my position. I try to be a pragmatic in most things. I try to look beyond the emotional issue and look at what is driving an issue, how history relates to a decision, and what the results are or could be. I mention a slippery slope because I believe it is one. When I look at world and history, I see a world where Moslems blow themselves up, where the Germans intiated the "final solution", people abort babies based on convenience, sex or handicap, and places like Rawanda and Darfur are ignored. How did these people come to where human life became so worthless and disposible? Then I look at the United States where the people roll over and let the government pass laws like the Patriot Act, and I start to wonder. Where will we be in 25 years. In less than a day Americans were standing in line to give away their personal freedoms. I suppose I am partly driven to my position by two things; one being that I am a parent of a handicapped child, and two being a child of a parent who was involved in the Hilter Youth and whose grandfather was in the German SS. I don't trust government or society.
I am willing to admit that if I sat through the painful death of a loved one I might change my opinion. In the end, while for most people this is an argument about personal freedom, I look at it as a deeper
issue dealing with the value of life.
So, trust me, I realize the value of your arguments. This is just a place I am unwilling to go at this time. My guess is that it will pass and it will cause little uproar. People will forget about it, and for the most part it will slip (hopefully) into oblivion for most of us. Yet the concious step society is taking one that could have future ramifications. I will leave it at that and allow you to attack as you like.

Krijack,

Although I bring plenty of emotion to this issue, it's really about being rational and objective to me. I have no wish to attack you. I want you to think about it from points of view other than your own, and for you to understand how guys like me see you coming off as the dictatorial one, since we can't force you into using this service, but you can deprive us of using it. And that it is people like you who are limiting our personal freedom, despite that freedom having no direct affect on you.

You say you see the deeper issue being the value of life, not about personal freedom. I agree with you in an oblique way. Sorta' like Patrick Henry I consider personal freedom equivalent with the ultimate value of life - give me liberty, or give me death. Heady stuff isn't it? So when you mess with my personal freedom, you're messing with my value of life. Just like real life itself, there is no way outa' this. It's real messy. Either you value life, and the personal freedom that attends it, or you don't. Please think about this. What do you suppose it is that you're valuing more highly?

Thanks again for being a good sport and discussing this, having an outlying position and all.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

That's right Aunty, ain't none of us getting oughta' here alive. Apparently a type of morals Nazi objects to us making our own personal decisions. I'm trying hard to understand that mindset and what creates it. I'm leaning toward a religious defect of some type.

Sg

wow, welcome to another episode of "As The Stomach Turns"..you really believe religion has no hand in this??? Well I for one don't want somebodies "imaginary friend" telling me what I can or cannot do with my life. Suicide is painless, and should only be the decision of the terminally ill, with sound mind and judgement, not some religious whack job foisting their beliefs upon everyone around them actually believing they are the sword of god or something similar.Many have tried to get you to see that, but you have blinders on..

Salmo - Im not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. This inititive is to vote for it or against it. You have every right to vote for it, just as I have every right to vote against it. And yes I DO UNDERSTANT IT!!!


You don't want me deciding your moral beliefs, the same way I don't want you deciding mine.

You started this thread stating your opinions/beliefs for which you are sincere. I know I'm in the minority, but I'm fine with that.

Im going to agree to disagree.

I can of have to agree with BWP on this one. The governments hand is in this no matter how you look at it. If it wasn't, there would be no requirements for doctors guidelines. Why shouldn't someone who lost his or her entire family in a car accident and is now a paraplegic be allowed to off themselves, why not someone who is getting alzheimers and looking at a life of slow death and loss of dignity over a longer period. A few years back a business associate of my Dad's came down with terminal cancer. He was the only family member that cared for his severly mentally disabled grandchild, so he took him out the woods, killed the grandchild and then himself. Most people who knew the situation felt he did the kid a favor. Where does it stop, and should it.... In some ways, while this gives more freedom to an individual, at the same time gives more control to the government to decide when a life is still worth living.

Well, first, let me appologize for my belated reply. The first thing I would like to say is, GF Salmo g. The great thing about these boards is that you can go back and read what you typed. The previous 2 posts I put on this thread were pure questions and I was looking for an answer. Anyone suggesting my opinion on an issue from a question is guilty of being a dumb ass. Anyone who does not have a legitimate answer should STFU about how I feel about it and worry about there own well being.

I understand you could just be poking the bear because he is fun to piss off. No problem, thats OK, I accept that, please keep poking.

I have just spent the weekend dealing with the death of my wifes mother. Nothing terminal, she just checked out in the middle of the night. Believe me, I just found out, cost is very much an important issue when regarding death.

If you care, my mother has just been diagnosed with liver cancer. I'll will let you know that she wants to fight/live because that is her natural instinct to do what she or her doctors can do keep her alive. We are unsure of the future and certanly scared. I will also let yo know that cost and quality of care are an issue.

So, again, GF Salmo g., for assuming my beliefs and then directing it towards yourself.

You also bring up the point of personal freedom. Personal freedom is a much larger issue than just assisted suicide. Personal freedom is huge. If you really gave a sh!t about personal freedom, you would not care in any capacity the outcome of voting because it is a personal choice. Since you have posted comments in contrary to true personal choice; you are a hipocrit. FOYFPOS

Now, here is my real opinion/s, since you care. I hate it that hese everyday life issues have to make it on the political ballot. In my view death strikes everybody, evenly, across the board. I agree that death should be quick and with dignity but that is selfish because I dont want to see the suffering and I dont want my family members to experience any pain. That is a me thing. I am a hunter and I hate it when my prey suffers, so I make every effort to end it quickly. Thats a me thing. I dont care if this passes but I want to be sure that there are no loopholes to get abused by anyone involved.

We all fvck the same and we die the same, please keep it off the ballot.

Hang in there, J7.

You know what?

I think you should shut your f*cking mouth.

You lie there in intense agony for weeks crapping yourself from pain before you open your gaping f'n hole and call someone a quitter.

I don't give a sh!t if you set yourself on fire tonight............in fact you'd be doing the world a favor.

You're a real piece of sh!t, bwp. Go f*ck yourself.

...bwp: i'd look out, i think you just made the Top of the List!

I don't give a f*ck WHAT you think, you f'n worm.

Go kill yourself.

damn, he's gonna blow a gasket...

You're a c0cksucker, bwp.

Calling someone so desperate they'd take their own life a quitter is something only a stinkin' fly ridden piece of sh!t would say.

Like you, for instance.

Go kill youself and make the world a better place.

So, according to your own logic (if you can call it that) you just invited a bunch of bs onto yourself...?


:woops:

1. BwP
2. GvD
3. Luntra
4. Jake or KK
5. Man driving slow in fast lane
6. Woman in purple dress
7. Man playing too much techno
8. Man with hat



...movin' on up!!

I'll give you sh!t any time you say some stupid-ass crap.

I don't give a rat's ass WHO you're married to.........it doesn't have a thing to do with the conversation.

You called people in such pain and desperation that they'd take their own life quitters.

And THAT makes you a sack of sh!t.

How simple.

Bring up KARMA again, even though you don't believe in it. It shows the whole world what a f*cktard you are.

I give you whatever the f.uck i want, bitch...

(let's see... how many of my family members DIED from cancer??)


btw, KARMA doesn't really believe in you either

Already did him.