http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-falk/understanding-the-gaza-ca_b_154777.html

For eighteen months the entire 1.5 million people of Gaza experienced a punishing blockade imposed by Israel, and a variety of traumatizing challenges to the normalcy of daily life. A flicker of hope emerged some six months ago when an Egyptian arranged truce produced an effective ceasefire that cut Israeli casualties to zero despite the cross-border periodic firing of homemade rockets that fell harmlessly on nearby Israeli territory, and undoubtedly caused anxiety in the border town of Sderot. During the ceasefire the Hamas leadership in Gaza repeatedly offered to extend the truce, even proposing a ten-year period and claimed a receptivity to a political solution based on acceptance of Israel's 1967 borders. Israel ignored these diplomatic initiatives, and failed to carry out its side of the ceasefire agreement that involved some easing of the blockade that had been restricting the entry to Gaza of food, medicine, and fuel to a trickle.

Israel also refused exit permits to students with foreign fellowship awards and to Gazan journalists and respected NGO representatives. At the same time, it made it increasingly difficult for journalists to enter, and I was myself expelled from Israel a couple of weeks ago when I tried to enter to carry out my UN job of monitoring respect for human rights in occupied Palestine, that is, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, as well as Gaza. Clearly, prior to the current crisis, Israel used its authority to prevent credible observers from giving accurate and truthful accounts of the dire humanitarian situation that had been already documented as producing severe declines in the physical condition and mental health of the Gazan population, especially noting malnutrition among children and the absence of treatment facilities for those suffering from a variety of diseases. The Israeli attacks were directed against a society already in grave condition after a blockade maintained during the prior 18 months.

As always in relation to the underlying conflict, some facts bearing on this latest crisis are murky and contested, although the American public in particular gets 99% of its information filtered through an exceedingly pro-Israeli media lens. Hamas is blamed for the breakdown of the truce by its supposed unwillingness to renew it, and by the alleged increased incidence of rocket attacks. But the reality is more clouded. There was no substantial rocket fire from Gaza during the ceasefire until Israel launched an attack last November 4th directed at what it claimed were Palestinian militants in Gaza, killing several Palestinians. It was at this point that rocket fire from Gaza intensified. Also, it was Hamas that on numerous public occasions called for extending the truce, with its calls never acknowledged, much less acted upon, by Israeli officialdom. Beyond this, attributing all the rockets to Hamas is not convincing either. A variety of independent militia groups operate in Gaza, some such as the Fatah-backed al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade are anti-Hamas, and may even be sending rockets to provoke or justify Israeli retaliation. It is well confirmed that when US-supported Fatah controlled Gaza's governing structure it was unable to stop rocket attacks despite a concerted effort to do so.

What this background suggests strongly is that Israel launched its devastating attacks, starting on December 27, not simply to stop the rockets or in retaliation, but also for a series of unacknowledged reasons. It was evident for several weeks prior to the Israeli attacks that the Israeli military and political leaders were preparing the public for large-scale military operations against the Hamas. The timing of the attacks seemed prompted by a series of considerations: most of all, the interest of political contenders, the Defense Minister Ehud Barak and the Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, in demonstrating their toughness prior to national elections scheduled for February, but now possibly postponed until military operations cease. Such Israeli shows of force have been a feature of past Israeli election campaigns, and on this occasion especially, the current government was being successfully challenged by Israel's notoriously militarist politician, Benjamin Netanyahu, for its supposed failures to uphold security. Reinforcing these electoral motivations was the little concealed pressure from the Israeli military commanders to seize the opportunity in Gaza to erase the memories of their failure to destroy Hezbollah in the devastating Lebanon War of 2006 that both tarnished Israel's reputation as a military power and led to widespread international condemnation of Israel for the heavy bombardment of undefended Lebanese villages, disproportionate force, and extensive use of cluster bombs against heavily populated areas.

Respected and conservative Israeli commentators go further. For instance, the prominent historian, Benny Morris writing in the New York Times a few days ago, relates the campaign in Gaza to a deeper set of forebodings in Israel that he compares to the dark mood of the public that preceded the 1967 War when Israelis felt deeply threatened by Arab mobilizations on their borders. Morris insists that despite Israeli prosperity of recent years, and relative security, several factors have led Israel to act boldly in Gaza: the perceived continuing refusal of the Arab world to accept the existence of Israel as an established reality; the inflammatory threats voiced by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad together with Iran's supposed push to acquire nuclear weapons, the fading memory of the Holocaust combined with growing sympathy in the West with the Palestinian plight, and the radicalization of political movements on Israel's borders in the form of Hezbollah and Hamas. In effect, Morris argues that Israel is trying via the crushing of Hamas in Gaza to send a wider message to the region that it will stop at nothing to uphold its claims of sovereignty and security.

There are two conclusions that emerge: the people of Gaza are being severely victimized for reasons remote from the rockets and border security concerns, but seemingly to improve election prospects of current leaders now facing defeat, and to warn others in the region that Israel will use overwhelming force whenever its interests are at stake.

That such a human catastrophe can happen with minimal outside interference also shows the weakness of international law and the United Nations, as well as the geopolitical priorities of the important players. The passive support of the United States government for whatever Israel does is again the critical factor, as it was in 2006 when it launched its aggressive war against Lebanon. What is less evident is that the main Arab neighbors, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, with their extreme hostility toward Hamas that is viewed as backed by Iran, their main regional rival, were also willing to stand aside while Gaza was being so brutally attacked, with some Arab diplomats even blaming the attacks on Palestinian disunity or on the refusal of Hamas to accept the leadership of Mamoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority.

The people of Gaza are victims of geopolitics at its inhumane worst: producing what Israel itself calls a 'total war' against an essentially defenseless society that lacks any defensive military capability whatsoever and is completely vulnerable to Israeli attacks mounted by F-16 bombers and Apache helicopters. What this also means is that the flagrant violation of international humanitarian law, as set forth in the Geneva Conventions, is quietly set aside while the carnage continues and the bodies pile up. It additionally means that the UN is once more revealed to be impotent when its main members deprive it of the political will to protect a people subject to unlawful uses of force on a large scale. Finally, this means that the public can shriek and march all over the world, but that the killing will go on as if nothing is happening. The picture being painted day by day in Gaza is one that begs for renewed commitment to international law and the authority of the UN Charter, starting here in the United States, especially with a new leadership that promised its citizens change, including a less militarist approach to diplomatic leadership.

Waahhh

Israel needs to kill them ALL....starting with Hamas!

Mf

"The periodic firing of homemade rockets that fell harmlessly". WTF, how about someone fire a few homemade rockets into your backyard? By The way they are not home made rockets. The rockets being used are increasingly more sophisticated and dangerous.

The Palestenians' problem is with their corrupt goverment and has been since Yasir Arafat. Until that changes, nothing will change for them.

Israel has been a target since 1948 and has been under constant attack ever since. 60+ years of war. I can understand their stance on not bending over backwards.

The sad thing is that neither side ever learns anything from these issues.

The stupid part is that anybody who pisses off Israel actually thinks they'll get away with it. They have a serious amount of firepower, and they are not afraid to use it. It isn't "an eye for an eye" with them, they just cut off the head.

Israel has been under constant attack since 1948 because Israel was created by Britain, with the help of the US, out of land occupied by Palestinians and Jews since time immemorial. Many Palestinians were forcibly displaced to Gaza and the West Bank to establish space for the politically created state of Israel.

Who among us, if we were Palestinian, wouldn't fight for freedom, self determination, and family property taken without compensation?

On the other hand, after 60 years Israel is a reality and isn't going away. The anti-Israeli Arabs that won't get over that might as well piss up a rope.

The mess in the land that is Israel and was Palestine has been at war for longer than anyone can remember. Britain and the US certainly contributed to the mess in the last 6 decades (and Britain for long before that).

Sometimes I'm of a mind that there will never be resolution, no reconciliation, and there is no solution. I don't know whey the US is so pro-Israel, since Israel is pretty clearly not a friend of the US, other than the US media is one-sidedly pro-Israel. Since the US armed Israel to the teeth, maybe we should arm the Palestinians equally well and train them. Then maybe the Palestinians and Israelis will do the world a favor and destroy each other. I realize this totally lacks any compassion or humanitarian aspect. But then Israel and the Palestinians are totally incompassionate and inhumane toward one another anyway. That part of the middle east is a huge financial drain on the rest of the world and keeps the region politically and socially unstable that the world might just be a better place without both of them. After decades of failed attempts at peace accords, is any other solution possible?

Sg

Israel might be pounding on little Hamas but they got a rude awakening when they took on Hezbollah recently...as SG said this is a series of conflicts that will never. IMO this is just a warmup for a rematch with a much tougher, better equiped and trained enemy...pretty sad as the civilians bear the brunt of all these "wars" and no one really wins in the end.

That's what Israel gets for letting Hezbollah fester like a big gigantic zit.....they should have popped them along time ago.

Mf

I think American support for Israel comes from not coming to the rescue of the Jews, during the holocaust sooner.

These religious fanatics over there purposely "lob" unguided missiles over the fence,hoping to kill women and children.Then they hide behind there own women and children daring you to fight back.Of course when you do it is a no win situation.Instead of killing the enemy you kill women and children.Ultimately you get a war that will never end.The Israelites have been fighting on that soil since before Christ.To own that soil is to spend thre rest of your time there fighting for it.

What scares me is the Russians.They are selling Iran increasingly more sophisticated weapons. It is only a matter of time before this technology is used to drop a nuclear weapon dab smack in the middle If Israel.We would be talking the Hollocoust in one day.

Our country and the world does not need that now or ever.

+1

Besides....you don't mess with The Zohan!

Just watched it the other night.Funny [censored]

Maybe that land is cursed, in a horror movie kind of way. If so, then the Israelis and Arabs are both crazy for having anything to do with it. Move on idiots.

I just read the lead article on AOL news about this. Its a great read. The Palestinians are promising to kill, injure and implicit horrors that will result in severe mental illness. Later on it tells the plight of an innocent family that was bombed. They lost 2 family members and 6 more were injured. Of course, on family member did mention that the Isrealies had called and told them they had 15 minutes to leave. Wanna bet they are now holding up some dead or injured child and weeping about how horrible Isreal is. Ignoring of course the fact that they were warned and that the Israelies actually did hit their intended target.
The whole article posted is a bunch of hogwash. I love how it condemns Israel for using "disproportionate force". I guess they feel that when they attach someone bigger and stronger then them the bigger man should tie one arm behind his back before fighting and make sure he hits himself once every time he hits the other guy. Plain ridiculous.
Turn them to dust Israel......

Anyone wonder why Israel is so hated over there? Maybe because it's like having the Great Satan living in their back yard. I have spoken with many Israelis, and they are just like us...culture, economic structure, etc..
What self respecting raghead wants a little America within spitting distance? Woe be to the idiots who tweak the Israelis nose.... Israel is the preiminent military power in the Middle East, and as such provides a stability that our State Department can only dream of..... Keeping Iran off balance, along with Syria, goes a long long way to ensure our global interests are secure.

Jeepers JLH, it doesn't look like anyone wants to drink the same Kool Aid as you did.....Too bad, so sad.

What is the morally measurable offense here? The number of rockets used by any one side, or the number of human lives lost per side? Israel's ratio of people killed per rocket is much more efficient than Hamas; is that cause for celebration or condemnation?

I view the conflict with an ambiguous eye. Israel is no more defensible than Hamas' actions deplorable.

What a joke goharley. What kind of idiot would even hint that, after being shot at, you should count how many people were killed and then kill only the same amount; and that if you use a bigger gun or kill more, you are the agressor and immoral one. Sorry, Israel's approach has always been a hundred for one, and I approve. Would you suggest that a police officer should always wait to be shot at, then only shoot back the same amount of bullets. Making sure you don't actually hit the criminal unless you are hit. And if there are two, only arresting one.

Key word Vidiotic.....Interest.....

We have no friends in the middle east only interests.

That's not what I said, but if we continue to play with your police analogy, can that policeman enter an apartment building and kill every occupant inside because someone from one apartment shot at him? I hope you agree, no.

Israel has missles shot at them so they react in kind by firing missles back. I'm okay with that. But four Israelis die, so they in turn kill 400 Palestinians yet continue firing missles into Gaza; I'm questioning why some feel that's okay.

Do any of the posters who defend or approve of Israel have an understanding of the history of the area? If so, what makes the Israelis more of the white hat guys than the Palestinians?

As I see it, the Arabs sponsor disorganized and unregulated terrorism against Israel, and Israel inflicts state sponsored terrorism against Palestinians over the last 60 years. When it comes to the Israel - Arab conflict, there are no good guys.

Sg

Israelis, even if they don't think Jesus Christ is the Savior, at least spring from the same God-Worship as Christians, and if you think that doesn't matter, then you are fooling yourself.

For the Apolocalyptic Fundamentalists, Christ won't return to Earth until the Jews occupy all of the Promised Land...and again, if you don't think that hasn't figured into our foreign policies, then you are fooling yourself again.

Fish on...

Todd

state sponsored or unregulated and disorganised....what difference does that make? According to that thinking, its all terrorism.. and should be viewed by the rest of the world as evil. Isreal just has more efficient ways to defend themselves than the Palestinians, so the Isrealis are the terrorists? The Palestinians keep bringing knives to a gunfight.

Hamas is the smallest of Israeli concerns...this is just how they practice for when Iran, Syria, Lebanon or most likely Pakistan come after them...the worst is yet to come in this conflict, its just a matter of when

We could easily level the playing field by cutting off aid to Israel. We give them more foreign aid than any other country, and more than 90% of that aid is given right back to our military-industrial complex. Ergo, the argument can be made that we have socialized our defense industry through an ingenious money laundering scheme with the help of Israel. (But that's another thread all together.)

So let Israel fend for themselves and find out if they truly are "God's chosen people."

Didn't make it past the first sentence in the subject article, "For eighteen months the entire 1.5 million people of Gaza experienced a punishing blockade imposed by Israel." It should read and Egypt!!!! Egypt closed down the smuggling tunnels and supported said "punishing blockaid."

Maybe Hamas should have brought supplies for the people of Gaza through the under the border tunnels instead of arms and missles. Why would a country agree to an extention of a ceasefire that was never followed by Hamas?

I watched an interview last night with a Muslim spokesman about the issue. His take was isreal is terrorists and would not condemn the rockets, suicide bombings, and other nefarious acts put out by the muslim fundamentlists. Israel would destroy the whole middle east if provoked into it IMHO. Most of those backwards ass pirates wouldn't stand a chance.

If that piece of real estate is such a problem, then maybe nobody should live there, maybe just relocate the people from both sides and bulldoze the whole fricken city (cities).

Or take a lesson from us and dole out blankets and whiskey.

We lobbing rockets accross the fence ?

We been killing each other over ancient disagreements ?

Hezbollah got a good chuckle out of that one.

BTW, I watched an interview with an Israeli who felt the Palestinians are just worthless terrorists, yet he made no condemnation of the past actions of Arial Sharon, the disproportionate retaliation to Hamas rockets, or the fact that Gaza has been literally under siege for over two years. Go figure.

do i detect a whiff of anti semitism in this thread?

I think you're smelling your upper lip.

no, wait that's just wooly's breath

No more than anti-Muslim xenophobia.

Actually... Vidiot is somewhat correct GH. Palestinian Arabs are considered "Semites" too... and our illustrious Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian right in this country just LOVES to hate 'em.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites.

The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible (Genesis 5.32, 6.10, 10.21), or more precisely from the Greek derivative of that name, namely Σημ (Sēm); the noun form referring to a person is Semite.

Damn. Wow, I didn't know all that. I'd always just thought Semite referred to Jews, so I never bothered to research it. Learn something new everyday here.

Give all the "Holy Land" to the Indians (native Americans), they can build giant casinos. Maybe even call it an Indian State...

Look at the big brain on 4Salt . .. . Interesting info, thanks for the edumaction. And I am being sincere with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism


The term Semite refers broadly to speakers of a language group which includes both Arabs and Jews. However, the term antisemitism refers specifically to attitudes held towards Jews.

JLH,
That land was in jewish hands before there were Palestinians or even Islam. To say that the they were removed and it should be their land is a joke. Everyone has a "right" to it and probably the Jews more than most. They were removed by mass slaughter when they were over run by Rome and by Canaanites before that. Then taken over, slaughtered and kicked out by the kingdom that controlled the lands that are now Jordan, Syria and part of Iraq.
The palestinians just happen to be who was there after the end of WWII. They have no more clame than anyone else and to portray this group of people in the light you attempt is a joke. If your kids (if you found someone willing to reproduce with you) were getting blown up on school buses and rockets landing in you back yard every day you would likely have a different view. Of course you are here protested by the military you hate so much......too bad.

So, you're a big supporter of psuedo-eminent domain, I see; land owner be damned.

Speaking of school kids being blown up...

for the reading impaired:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE


It's just Hatfields and McCoys people. Nothing to see here, move along or you'll be hit by crossfire.

I'd be glad to if it weren't for all the taxpayer dollars being wasted over there.

I thought all taxpayer dollars were wasted!

I really, really like it when religious types decide to rub each other out. Makes me wish I was an arms dealer more than I already do.

Mikespike--

Touché.

Enough Diolgue....Time for Israel to Kill Hamas, and let God sort it out............

Video bombing

Mf

Hold it out of the water for multiple glory shots, that'll spice it up a bit...

You mean it's not okay?... like I said, Palestinians bring knives into a gunfight. When they have no more knives, no more gunfights. Oh wait they'll still have rocks and innocents willing to throw them.

Israel just bombed near two U.N. schools in Gaza that were filled with civilians.

Both sides are out to terrorize the other.

The way I read it,

Started with Hagar, Abraham and Ishmael. Abe knocked up Hagar to begin the clan that God promised Abe, because Sarah was barren. Then he got ole Sarah expecting (the "first" son of Abe better known as Isaac), so he had no need for little Ishmael any longer. Ishmael was the first Arab (meaning "mixed blood") and he and his mother Hagar were sent out of Abe's tent at the orders of Sarah. Sarah didn't like Hagar nor the little bastard Ishmael so they were sent off to the desert where Hagar eventually (through a timely blessing from "God") found a spring to live and raise Ishmael rather than return to her home land of Egypt. Moral of the story: this has literally been going on for some 4 thousand years now and one or even two 4-year terms by any American president is not going to end the strife between those two people. It will only end when they educate their children to live side by side with tolerance, or the more likely scenario, when one of them wipes the other of the map. Either way, completely out of my control. And on a further note, if someone were to send rockets into my back yard, I'd answer with ICBMs if I had them available to me.

Christians, Jews AND Arabs worship the same god, and all study the same Old Testament. The christians have a messiah, the Arabs have a prophet and the Jews are still waiting. Arabs also believe that in end times, all three of these religions will be united, under the same God and the turmoil will end forever. I wouldn't expect GW or anyone in his administration to follow any of that, though they are "Christian".

Glad I was born here.

if someone was stealing my land and trying to stop my freedom of movement I'd be lobbing whatever I had at them, too. Missles, rocks, dogshit, chum carcasses, whatever.

The Jews have been playing the victim card for years. Cut off funding, level the playing field, and may the least-religious fanatic win.

!!!

Mf

Doesn't work. What's more analogous is to let the British decide that you have to give up your property to the Native Americans. Then have Canada arm them to the teeth so that everytime you flip one off they kill 20 of your family members.

civilians and wait for it....rockets.. civilians do NOT cause secondary explosions.
civilians used as shields. who uses civilians as shields? the word coward comes to mind. If the Palestinians want to waste their civilian population as shields, there won't be any left to become soldiers. as I said, you don't mess with the Zohan!

lobbing rockets is the equivalent of flipping the Israelis off? last I checked flipping someone off didn't kill them, sure it pissed em off but thats it.

+1

Wow. Some of you come completely unglued when the Indian nation kills more fish or crab than legally allowed or some fisherman kills a wild steelhead when prohibited, but you ardently defend the Israeli nation while they're committing war crimes.

Weird moral compass, I must say.






Disclaimer: Yes, we all recognize that Hamas is also guilty of war crimes.

+1

The Viet Cong, the American Revolutionary forces, the mujahideen and I had a little chuckle at that one.

ZZZing...

Oh, she's gonna hate that one... LOL!

We've already clearly established, and I believe everyone here agrees, Hamas is guilty of war crimes. But they're not alone.

Why is everyone fixated on the missle count? 1000's of missles result in <20 deaths over a period of years. Israel's response results in >500 dead in a matter of days. That's a war crime. And if you don't believe Israel's intention is the destruction of, and prevention of any Palestinian state, you're being intellectually ingenuous.

Defending Israel's actions are as immoral as defending Hamas'.

ZZZing Zilla!

Hmmmm, let's see. God gave those Ten Suggestions? Directions? Oh yeah, COMMANDMENTS to Moses, a jew, and one of those states "You shall not kill."

It's still just Hatfields and McCoys.

Oh yeah, now that the political theater has died down, I'm glad we could all find something new and worthwhile to argue about

Aunty,

I know what you were trying to say, but I just can't let a pitch like that go by without taking a swing.

What Israel will find out is that the harder they strike back, the less secure their lives will be. And the Palestinians will find out that the harder they try to wipe Israel off the planet, the harder the resolve of the Israelis to prevent that will be.

What I can't understand is why we as Americans feel the need to pick sides.........as it seems to me that both sides of that conflict are all f*cked up and, as usual, it's the innocents that catch the brunt of the aggression for both sides.

I find the whole conflict disgusting and disheartening.

+1

So Israel is lobbing better, more accurate missles, and thats a war crime?
Palestinians motives are pure whereas Israels are not?

Disproportionate response is a war crime by definition.

Absophuckinglutely.

interest=oil.

A little off base geographically, or put another way, Moses led the jews through the desert for forty years and then took them to the only place in the middle east without oil.

who are we really counting on to keep Iran in check?

Iran in check = U.S.A.

You think anyone else in the world cares about Uncle Sam ?

I am not sure how the U.S.A keeps Iran in check?I know we do not buy oil from Iran,but that in itself has little effect on Iran.China and Europe just take up the slack.Our economy tanking has hurt them more by bringing down the price of oil.

If Iran could wipe out Israel they would.That in itself tells me that they are a tool against Iran and in trying to keep some kind of stability in the middle east.Israel is at war with the same people that would love destabilize the middle east and cut off oil supplies to us.I know that we do not buy that much oil from the middle east but it is sold on a world market.Disrupt the flow out of the middle east and the price of oil will sky rocket.I myself would like to know we had Israel as an ally in the middle east to combat this.

Iraq USED to keep Iran in check...



NO... they wouldn't, IMO. The hardline govt. likes to talk big... but in the end it's just talk. The people of Iran are very pro-western and would like nothing more than to live in peace and prosperity. Plus, HOW would Iran "wipe out" Israel? With nukes? VERY unlikely! By a conquering ground assault? VERY unlikely! There's NO WAY that Iran could establish and maintain the logistics to occupy Israel... AND they know we would NEVER allow it.

There ya go again, 4Salt, making all kinds of sense and stuff.

BWP,

When the Shah ruled Iran and until the radical Iranians over-ran the US embassy in 1979, and the Ayatolah Komehni (sp) returned, Iran was the most western like in education and lifestyle of the Arab nations. The Ayatolah fixed all that. But there are likely very many Iranians who would like to return to that lifestyle and its greater freedoms.

Sg

There was a country and man keeping Iran in check...what was his name again?

Oh, yeah...I think his name was "BushCorp would sure like to have my oil"...



I agree...but you can't for one second think that the Palestinians don't think exactly the same thing, do you?

After all, the Palestinians didn't steal land from Israel to make their [nonexistent] country, did they?

Fish on...

Todd

Actually Todd if you look back little farther in history they did just that. They might not have "stole" the land but they did take it by force. The persian empire came through and slaughtered all that would not convert in thier conquest. The Jews were there first and have just as much "right" to the land and likely more if you use your logic. I guess the Jews should have just forced conversion or death on all of them as the persians did and we would not have this mess now.
Iran would like nothing more than to boost there standing in the middle east by taking out Isreal as well. Then the suadis, Jordan, egypt and everyone el se who does not follow islamic law. No it is not the people, it is the govern but they still control teh policy and the military just like here in the good old U.S. of A.

Let's say that the Mexican drug lords got tired of the US DEA grabbing their drugs at the border so they lob a few hundred crappy missles and mortars across the border into Texas and the Mexican government won't deal with the problem. What would be the solution? Do we do nothing because Texas was stolen by force from Mexico years ago?

nicely stated hank

I re-read my post that you quoted Hank... and I couldn't find the part where I said Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself... or where I mentioned Hamas and Hezbollah at all?

The statement was made that Iran would "wipe out" Israel if they could. I was merely pointing out the extreme improbability of that actually happening.

Dan S said it best earlier. This has been going on since time immemorial and probably always will as long as there are Israelis and Palestinians.

Hey, you wouldn't happen to be one of those "the end of days is nigh upon us" types... would ya Hank?

Party (A) and party (B) both have a set in stone unbreakable opinion regarding the religion they practice and or live by, differnt from the other. Party (A) AND Party (B) have fought for hundreds of years over said religious strife brining into the arena of argument all kinds of sub disagreements, land, oil, etc. It just so happens that both of these parties have many others like them in the middle east. None have been able to stop the reoccurring violence against each other. Why we get involved I have trouble understanding. For example trying to bring democratic ways to Iraq. We might eat that ideology up like ribs on a platter. Leave em be is how I feel about the issue. I should disclose that I know very little about the facts of the above mentioned religious strife but I do know from common sense when I see 2 guys beating the hell out of each other outside of the bar over a pool shot not to go over and mitigate the situation.

Easy, we give Texas back to Mexico and consider ourselves lucky. Or, in the alternative, we annex Mexico and voila, no more Mexican border problems!

Hank,

Until the US invaded Afghanistan and then Iraq I used to think that the reason the US bothered to support Israel was to have a convenient bad cop in the ME neighborhood. Nice to have Israel knock out an Arab nuke facility so we don't have to do it and leave our fingerprints on the scene. That concept doesn't hold water any more, if it ever did. The frustration of it all has me returning to the notion that we should level the playing field by giving the Palestinians all the same weapons and training we gave and still give the Israelis. Then the Palestinians won't have to throw rocks and lob 3rd rate Syrian or Iranian rockets. Maybe they'll wipe each other out, which still seems like it would be doing the rest of the world a favor. I mean, who needs 'em?

I think I'm going to blame Moses. I read that he led the Jews around the ME for forty years and finally settled in the only place that doesn't have oil. Those are God's chosen people? That doesn't add up, does it?

+1

Funny thing is, Hank, they kind of are. I watched a segment on BBC news the other night where they showed the tunnels and underground (literally) workshops where they assembled the rockets. You can clearly see why they don't hit schyt. They're nothing but overgrown bottle rockets.


True dat.

"We've already clearly established, and I believe everyone here agrees, Hamas is guilty of war crimes. But they're not alone.

Why is everyone fixated on the missle count? 1000's of missles result in <20 deaths over a period of years. Israel's response results in >500 dead in a matter of days. That's a war crime. And if you don't believe Israel's intention is the destruction of, and prevention of any Palestinian state, you're being intellectually ingenuous."


I know I am jumping in a little late here...

But since is trying to win a war a war crime?

Vic,

Later in the discussion I'd also pointed out that disproportionate response is by defininition a war crime. As is punishing the entire populous for the actions of a relative few.

What would be an appropriate response? Before you answer... Why is your judgment of what is a more appropriate response better than the people who are being attacked?

in Gh 's opinion an appropriate response would be.."oh look they killed 20 of us, lets kill 20 of them" and so on and so on and so on, so it will never end.
Better the Israelis kill hundreds more in retaliation, so that eventually Hamas,(or the Palestinians) wise up and wonder if it is really in their best interests to continue on a course which means the assured destruction of their entire populace. Said it before and will say it again, woe be to those that tweak the Israeli's nose... YOU DO NOT MESS WITH THE ZOHAN!!!!

You guys keep inferring that logic plays a part...

You know Harley... you had me curious when you said that Israel was committing war crimes by hitting back with everything they have, so... I looked up rules of war and Geneva Convention to see if there were any rules that might define what an appropriate response would be in this situation. You know what??? I couldn't find any. Hmmm...

Here is what I did find. I find it ironic that some of the first rules of war were created my Muslims. Read this over and tell me if you think the Palestinians are living up to these rules...

Attempts to define and regulate the conduct of individuals, nations, and other agents in war and to mitigate the worst effects of war have a long history. In the early 7th century, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, whilst instructing his Muslim army, laid down the following rules conerning warfare:

Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.[1]

These rules were put into practice during the early Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries. After the expansion of the Caliphate, Islamic legal treatises on international law from the 9th century onwards covered the application of Islamic military jurisprudence to international law,[2] including the law of treaties; the treatment of diplomats, hostages, refugees and prisoners of war in Islam; the right of asylum; conduct on the battlefield; protection of women, children and non-combatant civilians; contracts across the lines of battle; the use of poisonous weapons; and devastation of enemy territory. These laws were put into practice by Muslim armies during the Crusades, most notably by Saladin and Sultan al-Kamil. For example, after al-Kamil defeated the Franks, Oliverus Scholasticus praised the Islamic laws of war, commenting on how al-Kamil supplied the defeated Frankish army with food:[3]



Interesting don't you think?

Hey, I didn't write the laws. If you don't like them, write your elected officials and have them petition the UN to change the laws more to your liking. But as the laws are written now, both Hamas and Israel are equally guilty of war crimes.

Vic,
If countries still followed teachings from the 7th and 8th century, we'd still be meeting in the middle of empty pastures in broad daylight to commence with the carnage. Probably make for better TV and cut down on the "collateral damage." Gotta love that term.

Hank,
I was honestly shocked at the size of those homemade rockets. They only stood about 4 1/2 foot high and looked to have a warhead about the size of a 81mm mortar. Not what I imagined. I was thinking more along the lines of the ones you mentioned that are possibly supplied by Iran. BTW, have you any data that shows the number Iran or Lebanon has supplied?

So what is the basis of your war crimes theory??? Where are the laws that define what Israel is doing is a war crime?

I checked the Geneva convention and it did make mention of ending a war as quickly as possible. Which from my perspective is what they are attempting to do, and would do if the world community didn't constantly step in.

war crimes.....stockpiling weapons in un schools and daring your enemy to attack them, inflaming world opinion about innocents being killed. Now THAT is a crime of the highest order.

I got one for $17.99 from Rockets-R-Us the other day.

I'm aiming mine toward Eugene.

Light that SOB Dan.

Agreed, that makes sense. That would account for how they purchase their rocket parts. You mentioned earlier China's involvement, which I don't doubt at all and also suspect Russia as well. However, as tightly locked down as Gaza has been I imagine they can only be helping monetarily. I don't think Hamas is sophisticated enough to be smuggling in entire missles.

Article 57(2) of Protocol 1 obliges parties to "refrain from deciding to launch any attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."

Collective punishments are expressly prohibited by Article 75(2)(d) of Protocol I and Article 4(2)(b) of Protocol II. They violate the principle of personal responsibility.







Google shall set you free.

Lets here what Israelis are saying.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/395345_amy09.html


Goodman: Israelis for peace speak out
By AMY GOODMAN
SYNDICATED COLUMNIST

Israel's assault on Gaza, by air, sea and now land, has killed (at the time of this writing) more than 600 Palestinians, with more than 2,700 injured. Ten Israelis have been killed, three of them, Israeli soldiers, killed by friendly fire. Beyond the deaths and injuries, the people of Gaza are suffering a dire humanitarian crisis that is dismissed by the Israeli government. There is, however, Israeli opposition to the military assault.

Israeli professor Neve Gordon is chairman of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in southern Israel, the region most impacted by the Hamas rockets.

Speaking over the phone from Beersheba, Gordon said: "We just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous. ... The problem is that most Israelis say Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago, and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us. They forget the details. The detail is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The detail is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The detail is that they don't get basic foodstuff, that they don't get electricity, that they don't get water. And when you forget those kinds of details, all you say is, 'Why are they still shooting at us?' That's what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what's been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that's what's missing in the mainstream media here."

Gordon attended a large peace march last weekend in Tel Aviv with more than 10,000 Israelis. Longtime Israeli peace activist Uri Avnery was there. He called the invasion "a criminal war, because, on top of everything else it is openly and shamelessly part of Ehud Barak's and Tzipi Livni's election campaign. I accuse Ehud Barak of exploiting the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) soldiers in order to get more Knesset seats. I accuse Tzipi Livni of advocating mutual slaughter in order to become prime minister." Israel's elections will be in February.

The assault strengthens right-wing Likud Party leader and former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a foremost hawk and leading candidate for prime minister. While Netanyahu fully supports the attack on Gaza, his nephew, Jonathan Ben-Artzi, is an Israeli conscientious objector who was court-martialed and imprisoned for a year and a half. He spoke to me from Providence, R.I., where he is a student at Brown University.

"I'm speaking ... not as anyone's nephew but ... as an Israeli, trying to speak out to Americans to tell them you don't have to support Israel blindly. Not everything that Israel does is holy ... sometimes you have to speak firmly to Israel and tell us, tell our government, stop doing this."

Gideon Levy is a Jewish journalist with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. He told me: "I think that Israel had this legitimacy to protect its citizens in the southern part of Israel ... but this doing something does not mean this brutal and violent operation. ... I believe we could have got to a new truce without this bloodshed. Immediately to send dozens of jets to bomb a total helpless civilian society with hundreds of bombs -- just today, they were burying five sisters. I mean, this is unheard of. This cannot go on like this."

But it is. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, in Gaza opened up schools to provide shelter, since Gazans, trapped in this narrow strip of land, have no place to flee. Christopher Gunness of UNRWA told me that they provided the coordinates of the schools to the Israeli military. Nevertheless, at least two schools have been hit by Israeli airstrikes in the past 24 hours. Three people were killed at the Asma Elementary school. More than 30 are reported dead and more than 55 injured at the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza.

While Israeli planes drop pamphlets urging Palestinians to leave, the 1.5 million residents of the Gaza Strip, perhaps the most densely populated place on Earth, have no place to run, no place to hide. Calls for an immediate cease-fire are ignored by Israel and blocked by the U.S. government. It is not clear what the Obama administration will do -- but the people of Gaza can't wait until the inauguration. There must be a cease-fire now. And that's just the beginning.

Amy Goodman is the host of "Democracy Now!," a daily international TV/radio news hour. Denis Moynihan contributed research to this column.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/395345_amy09.html

another long winded cut and paste by JLH.....Again, who is drinking your kol aid???um lemmesee...NO ONE!

Ron Paul

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/528.html

Absolutely Hamas violates that principal IMHO, but since I don't work as a UN prosecutor that opinion and a dollar two ninety-eight will get you a cup of house drip coffee.

Also, IMHO, I don't feel dropping leaflets exonerates Israel from a response excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. They're still blowing up houses and infrastructure unnecessarily, which is excessive and appears as collective punishment.

Funny thing about those leaflets, although I do believe Israel's intentions are good, where exactly do they expect the Palistenians to go considering Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Is the message something like, "Hey, we're getting ready to bomb the schyt out of grid square A, so you need to move your collective asses to grid square B. Tomorrow you can move back to A 'cause then we're gonna bomb B."

So Harley... I am curious about the rules of war that Israel has violated. Do you have information to support your claim? Or are you spreading propaganda that is baseless in fact?

Vic,

I posted a couple of Articles and Protocols above from the Geneva Conventions as examples.

I will read them. Thanks

Israel accused of using white phosphorus in Gaza

http://uk.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUKLA617723

So what! You probably think of it as candy for the kids of Gaza. Probably wouldn't mind having your name etched on a few Israeli rounds.

Oh and ya, add to that a little DU for the complete cocktail. And by the way it's payed for with our money. Nice...

Is there no end to JLH's crying? so the Isreali's use WP, Hamas uses human shields..hmmmm ask yourself which is m ore cowardly.

Now Hamas is raiding aid trucks, sent by the Isreali's, and selling supplies to highest bidder. JLH, you picked the wrong horse in this race. Uh oh!
I did it, I played the race card!!!!!!

One stands behind a cannon 10 miles from the battle area while the other stands in the middle of the target prepared to die for his belief.

Hmmm, which one is more courageous? You don't honestly believe their "use of human shields" is preventing them from dieing, do you?

I agree it's strange; so foreign to our way of thinking it's tough to comprehend. I don't believe they are cowards, however. I also believe the hate you mentioned often goes both ways

Interesting argument though; is it simply blind hate, or is it courage manifested by blind hate, or perhaps manifested by a perverse theocracy. Just a matter of semantics, I suppose. Either way there are no winners in these conflicts.

Nope not courage, blind subservience to thier chosen religion, and the belief in an afterlife occupied by 72 virgins. Gee I dunno, I tend to side with the SMART ones, you know, 10 miles away behind a cannon.

So instead of courage, it's duty. That's a plausible argument. I also think it plausible that one must possess the courage to perform one's duty.

Who started the war?

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/534.html

fixed it

Props to BWP and Aunty. I think you're on to something there. We better send this memo to Israel / Gaza straight away.

Sg

That should prove to be an easy day's work.

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/just_fun/games/mapgame.html

Click on this one and have an educational moment. .. . .

The sentiments of many, including myself are expressed in this clip.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/536.html

That was fun!

Amazing enough this is from our media. Finally a better look at the problem.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

CBS "60 Minutes" -

CBS They are getting a lot of "heat" from the vocal minority who support Israel's brutal and counterproductive actions. It is important that those who value peace with justice in the region make the effort to support balanced media coverage. Such programs are very rarely seen on American main media. The Elephant taking a dump in the salad bowl as usual and silence at the dinner table.

Got the following from J Street.

This past Sunday, 60 Minutes aired a powerful and thoughtful report on the danger that Israeli settlements pose to the chances for Israeli-Palestinian peace. If you haven't watched the segment, it is must-see journalism. Watch it here.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

CBS They are getting a lot of "heat" from the vocal minority who support Israel's brutal and counterproductive actions. It is important that those who value peace with justice in the region make the effort to support balanced media coverage. Such programs are very rarely seen on American main media.


All week long, 60 Minutes' Bob Simon has been under attack for supposed "anti-Israel bias." CAMERA (the Orwellian-named Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) alerted their activist network - flooding the 60 Minutes' offices and their advertisers with angry phone calls charging media bias. [1] Jewish community leader Abe Foxman fired off a letter calling the piece a "hatchet job on Israel." [2]

Journalists - as well as rabbis, professors and elected officials - know that if they raise questions about what Israel does - they'll often get attacked as anti-Israel. It's one way the forces of the status quo constrain debate and discussion on what's really best for Israel and the United States.

It's time for a reporter like Bob Simon to know that those of us with balanced views value balanced reporting - and we know how to write letters too! If he's getting an earful from CAMERA and others, then the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement should be showing him support.

Click here to view the segment and send Bob Simon a note of support for his accurate and thoughtful report on Israeli settlements and the occupation.

We hear plenty from American media about the threats that Israel faces from terrorism, rockets, and a nuclear Iran.

While those threats are real and should be covered, Americans also need to hear about another threat that is just as real: that time is running out for a two-state solution with the Palestinians in part due to Israeli settlements and the occupation of the West Bank. Without a two-state solution soon through assertive American diplomacy, Israel's future as a Jewish, democratic homeland is at risk.

During Sunday's 60 Minutes segment, anchor Bob Simon interviewed pro-settlement activist Daniella Weiss who readily admitted that she thinks "settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality."

Simon also restated what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been saying for years [3] about what would happen if the two-state solution peace process falls apart.

"Demographers predict that within ten years Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Without a separate Palestinian state the Israelis would have three options, none of them good. They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid - have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life."

Simon also interviewed Israeli Foreign Minister and Israel's chief negotiator with the Palestinians Tzipi Livni who said that evacuating the settlers in the West Bank is "not going to be easy. But this is the only solution."

But groups like CAMERA are opposed to mainstream media reporting that Israeli extremists, in addition to Palestinian extremists, undermine efforts to achieve a two-state solution. CAMERA resorts to claims of anti-Israel bias - when the reality is that Israeli extremists on the West Bank make real peace and security for Israel and the Palestinians more difficult to achieve.

We can't let fringe groups like CAMERA define what it means to be pro-Israel through intimidation and fear tactics.

Bob Simon should receive support from the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement for his accurate and thoughtful assessment of the threat that Israeli settlements pose to the two-state solution peace process.

Thanks for all you do.

- Isaac

Isaac Luria
Online Director
J Street
January 29, 2009

Every news organization thinks and claims they are balanced in their reporting.