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#556029 - 11/15/09 11:10 PM almost self defense!! Your opinion?
MAVsled Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle, wa
I was assaulted this afternoon while waiting in a gas line at the Seattle 4th avenue COSTCO store, very right hand pump lane, approx 2:00-2:10 pm, Sunday, Nov 15.

Having completed a early am late season Westside buck scouting trip, I dropped by COSTO for gas and Bogie food. Waiting for an available gas pump, all of a sudden my truck driver's door jerks open violently. In leans this big fella; 28-34 years old, 6-3+, 230lbs+, Caucasion, short dark hair, clean cut, wearing blue jeans, tennis shoes and Seahawk jersey and cap....and grabs me trying to jerk me outta my Toyota Tundra-white. But the seat belt grabs and HE is unable to pull me out to "teach me something I'll never F___ forget...".

Unbelievably, I stay relatively calm and ask him to exit my vehicle space and let go of me. Now HE clenches his fists and readies to slam one into my face. I pull back and say: "see that hunting gear behind my seat, If you hit me I WILL SHOOT YOU. HE looks and sees the camo and asst hunting gear, camo backpack etc behind the seat. Then HE pulls away and steps back, proceeds to turn his Seahawk hat around so the cap's bill is in the back and makes fists and starts coming again. Now I pull the cell phone and dial 911. HE says fine call the cops it will be too late and proceeds to rip my cell phone out of my hands and toss it into the passenger side feet well. Being seatbelted in, I cannot reach the phone. HE misses with the first punch as I leaned over attempting to reach my cell phone. NOW I reach behind the seat. LOUD CLICK, I un-snap the SOC Seal Pup knife attached to my backpack. HE immediately backs off, out of my drivers space when HE hears the click!
I never show him the 6" SOG blade in my hand, still hidden behind my center console-rear seat area. My vision focused on his neck and ready to react if necessary.
I still don't know HOW in the world I stayed so CALM!

HE yells profanity about almost hitting his wife in the COSTCO parking lot crosswalk. No such thing occurred. HIS Wife/SHE then admitted to the gas attendant that my wheels spun a little bit and it startled her. Being ready to deliver in 2 weeks, HE got upset. UPset enough to walk the 2/10 of a mile through the COSTCO parking lot to my truck, where I was waiting for an available pump. The pregnant WIFE pulled him away to walk away, she probaly heard my bluff about shooting him if HE didn't stop. I never saw him coming but that door jerking open and getting grabbed sure scared the hell outta me. For a brief moment, I thought of being car jacked.
Apparently what set HIM off was My wheels spun, being wet pavement and my pick up bed was unloaded. But I hadn't let out the additional air suspension added for load support yet since I unloaded my payload so the back end was light. The spinning wheel, very very brief, startled his wife standing on the sidewalk, clear of the parking area cross walk. I knew not of this startling and there was no intent on my part to do so and no exchanges with HIM prior to him violently jerking my door open. When his wife led him away toward the store's entrance, the gas attendant checked if I was ok,,,she was nice but the look on her face was concerned & scared too.

I put the SOG knife back in its scabbard, settled my nerves and drove home, doing so in shock. But later, 45 min later, I went back to the Costco store to file a report and to file a police report, receiving a case number.
so I spent over 2+ hours in the COSTCO managers office, giving statements to COSTCO Management & Security and to the Seattle PD officer about the assualt. The COSTCO gas attendant left her statement & eye witness report with the police too.
They have HIM on surviellance camera-video and are running his and his wife's member number (from today's register purchase inside the store) for their information. COSTCO will press charges for tresspass and malicious assault of a customer. I am pressing charges for his assault. My left shoulder has sharp pain from HIM trying to jerk me outta the truck. Lucky I had my seat belt on, I think it saved me from a severe beating by keeping me in my seat. I sure hope they arrest this big fella soon.
If anyone here witnessed this incident please call SPD officer T. Saewong as your witness, case #2009-399257.

Several people/COSTCO gas customers came up to me later asking if I was ok. They thought HE knew me by him coming up and opening my truck door. But a couple saw the violent opening of the door and the look on my face as HE attempted to extract me from my truck. Everyone soon realized this was a serious incident occuring.

for the first time in my life, My Browning Hi-Power 9mm was not with me, or under my drivers seat. I Had my CWP though. If there was ever a time I may have needed it, the situation this afternoon may qualify. The Browning A-bolt 300 win mag was cased & unloaded, behind the passenger seat. I took the rifle this morning since it was the last day of bear season and who knows when scouting for late blacktail buck areas.
god helped me today or I'd be in the precinct filling out papers or worse, as I would have shot this person who out of the blue, completely startled & then assaulted me.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?
Would this have been self defense had I pulled the Browning HI Power and shot, prior to me telling him as a bluff???

PS, my nerves are still a bit rattled. Not scared of HIM so much but of what I was willing to do to defend myself. It took several minutes for me to stop the unctrollable shakes afterwards.
_________________________
chasing chrome, fur and Titleists.

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#556032 - 11/15/09 11:24 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: MAVsled]
Streamer Online   content
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2494
Loc: T-Town
Wow. Sounds pretty intense MAV. Thankfully everything turned out ok.

If the gun was readily available and I felt threatened... I certainly would not have hesitated to shoot and kill.

Good to hear you're doing ok.
_________________________
“Obviously you don't care about democracy if you vote for Trump” - Salmo g.

Space Available! Say something idiotic today!


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#556046 - 11/16/09 12:10 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Streamer]
Snake Pliskin Offline
Bead

Registered: 02/13/03
Posts: 1203
Loc: Duvall
He was out of line, if he had a beef with you about your driving, he should have approached you and told you so. Him grabbing you by surprise and threatening you........bullsh&t. He's probably upset about the Seahawks getting their a$$ kicked and wanted to show his wife a little testosterone.

Cops will handle it. Thankfully, nobody was seriously hurt.
_________________________
Bless our troops.

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#556058 - 11/16/09 01:11 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: MAVsled]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1432
Loc: Olympia, WA
MAVsled,

If I was part of your jury, you'd be a free man. You're in a pretty defenseless position seatbelted in your cab. You warned him, he disregarded the warning. What happens to him after that seems justified to me. No doubt it's a good thing the incident didn't end with the death or serious injury of anybody involved. Normal trips to Costco with the wife can get expensive, hopefully you can make this shopping trip so expensive he won't forget it for a long time. If you are hurting, see your doctor and get any injuries treated and documented. Then call Todd the Mod to see how many rvrfshr spinners you can buy for $20,000, plus medical expenses, pain and suffering, emotional trauma, time and mileage, future earnings, dry cleaning, etc.

I was in a home invasion situation which was extremely threatening to myself and my family. 911 was called first, and then I warned the Charles Manson look a like that I was armed and ready to shoot him IF he entered my home. During the second 911 call I told the dispatcher I was prepared to shoot the would be intruder...the rifle was loaded and the safety was off. The police showed up promptly, to make sure I didn't get away. Actually, they hauled the perp away and I didn't have to repair a bullet riddled broken down door. Didn't have to clean blood and assorted tissues from the walls, floors, and ceiling, didn't traumatize my family for the rest of their lives, and didn't become the subject of a 20/20, 48 Hours, or Dateline report. You reported a surprising calmness during your incident. I couldn't believe the focus I experienced during mine.

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#556070 - 11/16/09 02:37 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: CedarR]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
Maybe he was sore about The Hawks blowing another game.

Seriously though, that's fuct. I would have prolly grabbed my S&W airweight and gave him one in the face.

Too bad the d*ckhead's already had an opportunity to breed.

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#556074 - 11/16/09 03:14 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Irie]
larryb Offline
The Rainman

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 2314
Loc: elma washington
it is easy to say i would have done this or that but until it s you it happens to you realy do not know want you would have done.
_________________________
don't push the river it flows by itself
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
FREE PARKER DEATH TO RATS

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#556092 - 11/16/09 05:37 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: larryb]
Satan Offline
I love me

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 1821
Loc: Around the way
You did everything you could,and in lieu of what i read,sounds like this guy will be convicted of assault. What would I have done? Tough to say. I think the way you handled it was perfect.

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#556094 - 11/16/09 07:17 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Satan]
shinything Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 194
Loc: kitsap
I find it hard to believe that this guy got that spun up for nothing.

That said how he handled it was absolutely wrong,by todays standards.

42 years later I have learned that there are two sides to a story.

If you did threaten his wife and unborn ,selfishly making your way through a costco parking lot,as so many people do,you would of deserved the beating,in my world.Does not make it right,just how I roll.


edit:This comes from another post of yours makes me wonder....I here of this no motor, bust sled owners B.S. and it makes me fantasize, hmmm....park my sled rig, let friends take boat up or down from Wilson's, me off in the bushes on stakeout, 9mm B-Hi Power or 12 gauge riot gun at the ready, ready for the torchmen...



And to help keep it in context you said...Time to wake up to reality...that would be premeditated and not just protecting one's personal property.
I


Edited by shinything (11/16/09 07:43 AM)

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#556096 - 11/16/09 08:58 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
Twitch Offline
The Beav

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 2741
Loc: Oregon Central Coast
I have enough crap in the cab of my truck, that I probably could have stopped the Reggie Denny beating from the LA riots... Hell, the 8" tuna lure that dangles from my rearview mirror probably would have been lodged somewhere near this freak show's eyebrow...

I think it sounds like you handled it amazingly well, and you have many witnesses to back you up. I too have a CWP, and if all other attempts to resolve a situation fail, and my safety is threatened, out will come the stainless S&W that's about the size of a dinner plate...

Keep us updated.
_________________________
[Bleeeeep!], the cup of ignorance in this thread overfloweth . . . Salmo g
Truth be told, I've always been a fan of the Beavs. -Dan S.


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#556106 - 11/16/09 11:11 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Twitch]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
Where's the three stooges when you need them?
Eye poke, chin slap then tweak the nose.

A couple of years ago I witnessed a brief scuffle at a Costco gas. Supposedly an overweight old fart cut in front of another overweight old fart or so one thought. After the attendant broke it up I asked him if that happens very often and he said almost every day.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#556111 - 11/16/09 11:38 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: shinything]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6220
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: shinything

If you did threaten his wife and unborn ,selfishly making your way through a costco parking lot,as so many people do,you would of deserved the beating,in my world.


Scary, I find it difficult to deal with hot heads who don't think before they act.

MAV, glad you're ok and handling it the right way, through the law.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#556121 - 11/16/09 12:07 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: fish4brains]
chasbo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 795
Loc: oly
Maybe you should be capitalizing the word God and not him, his and he

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#556155 - 11/16/09 12:59 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: chasbo]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6312
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Mav,

Wow. Wild story!! It sure makes you wonder what goes through peoples heads....

To dive into someone's vehicle and threaten them takes some big balls if you ask me. Especially a guy most likely wearing some camo who just got back from hunting.

I'd say you handled it well but it's too bad you couldn't have inflicted some pain into that dudes ass so he'll think twice about doing it to someone else...

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#556158 - 11/16/09 01:02 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: chasbo]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6220
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: chasbo
Maybe you should be capitalizing the word God and not him, his and he


Hey spelling patrol, thanks for pointing out something so pathetically obvious it took you to show me the way, no, but really, that's how his user name is spelled.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#556160 - 11/16/09 01:13 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: fish4brains]
chasbo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 795
Loc: oly
Oh come on, thank God no one got bloodied up and that scumbag is a small case weenie all the way. Karma will catch up to him.

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#556161 - 11/16/09 01:13 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: stlhdr1]
The Moderator Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 13956
Loc: Mitulaville
Once I was done crapping my pants and defused the situation, I would have called 911 then and there and not left until the SPD showed up.

The real question is what would you have done if you didn't have any weapons in the car?

If the guy just yelled at you, I'd probably have a different story.

But, as soon as the guy opened up your door and grabbed hold of you, the story ends right then, right there. SPD is getting involved and someone is going to jail with charges pressed against them.

As for the "self defense" thing - the guy had better have a weapon on him for you to claim "self defense". Getting your ass kicked probably won't cut it. Not too sure I'd buy the "I felt as if my life was threatened" just from getting your ass beat in parking lot.
_________________________
T.K. Paker

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#556164 - 11/16/09 01:17 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: fish4brains]
MAVsled Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle, wa
I spent most of the night pondering; what did I do to set this fella off to the point of him taking this action?
>>Nothing of any intent on my perceived part: NO previous contact, glances, threats, obscene gestures etc.
And the only reason my tires squealed briefly is I was trying to avoid being hit by another car turning left in the direction I was turning right. The driver of that car was on her cell phone and not paying attention!!
trust me, I move carefully with and without my vehicle in a Costco parking area...and in the store itself too! wink

The man who assaulted me had some alcohol on his breath, impaired judgement and did something incredibly stupid with a baby on the way soon...IMHO.
I'm fully aware of 2 sides to a story, but with the Costco employee's witnessed statement to police, the officer just shook his head when the statement echoed my details of the incident.
_________________________
chasing chrome, fur and Titleists.

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#556169 - 11/16/09 01:36 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: chasbo]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6220
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: chasbo
Oh come on, thank God no one got bloodied up and that scumbag is a small case weenie all the way. Karma will catch up to him.


+1
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#556187 - 11/16/09 02:18 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: fish4brains]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Sounds like you handled it as perfectly as possible, Mav...I'd have hated to hear that you were going to jail, too...you did it right.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#556195 - 11/16/09 02:49 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: MAVsled]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 15727
Originally Posted By: MAVsled
I was assaulted this afternoon while waiting in a gas line at the Seattle 4th avenue COSTCO store, very right hand pump lane, approx 2:00-2:10 pm, Sunday, Nov 15.

Having completed a early am late season Westside buck scouting trip, I dropped by COSTO for gas and Bogie food. Waiting for an available gas pump, all of a sudden my truck driver's door jerks open violently. In leans this big fella; 28-34 years old, 6-3+, 230lbs+, Caucasion, short dark hair, clean cut, wearing blue jeans, tennis shoes and Seahawk jersey and cap....and grabs me trying to jerk me outta my Toyota Tundra-white. But the seat belt grabs and HE is unable to pull me out to "teach me something I'll never F___ forget...".

Unbelievably, I stay relatively calm and ask him to exit my vehicle space and let go of me. Now HE clenches his fists and readies to slam one into my face. I pull back and say: "see that hunting gear behind my seat, If you hit me I WILL SHOOT YOU. HE looks and sees the camo and asst hunting gear, camo backpack etc behind the seat. Then HE pulls away and steps back, proceeds to turn his Seahawk hat around so the cap's bill is in the back and makes fists and starts coming again. Now I pull the cell phone and dial 911. HE says fine call the cops it will be too late and proceeds to rip my cell phone out of my hands and toss it into the passenger side feet well. Being seatbelted in, I cannot reach the phone. HE misses with the first punch as I leaned over attempting to reach my cell phone. NOW I reach behind the seat. LOUD CLICK, I un-snap the SOC Seal Pup knife attached to my backpack. HE immediately backs off, out of my drivers space when HE hears the click!
I never show him the 6" SOG blade in my hand, still hidden behind my center console-rear seat area. My vision focused on his neck and ready to react if necessary.
I still don't know HOW in the world I stayed so CALM!

HE yells profanity about almost hitting his wife in the COSTCO parking lot crosswalk. No such thing occurred. HIS Wife/SHE then admitted to the gas attendant that my wheels spun a little bit and it startled her. Being ready to deliver in 2 weeks, HE got upset. UPset enough to walk the 2/10 of a mile through the COSTCO parking lot to my truck, where I was waiting for an available pump. The pregnant WIFE pulled him away to walk away, she probaly heard my bluff about shooting him if HE didn't stop. I never saw him coming but that door jerking open and getting grabbed sure scared the hell outta me. For a brief moment, I thought of being car jacked.
Apparently what set HIM off was My wheels spun, being wet pavement and my pick up bed was unloaded. But I hadn't let out the additional air suspension added for load support yet since I unloaded my payload so the back end was light. The spinning wheel, very very brief, startled his wife standing on the sidewalk, clear of the parking area cross walk. I knew not of this startling and there was no intent on my part to do so and no exchanges with HIM prior to him violently jerking my door open. When his wife led him away toward the store's entrance, the gas attendant checked if I was ok,,,she was nice but the look on her face was concerned & scared too.

I put the SOG knife back in its scabbard, settled my nerves and drove home, doing so in shock. But later, 45 min later, I went back to the Costco store to file a report and to file a police report, receiving a case number.
so I spent over 2+ hours in the COSTCO managers office, giving statements to COSTCO Management & Security and to the Seattle PD officer about the assualt. The COSTCO gas attendant left her statement & eye witness report with the police too.
They have HIM on surviellance camera-video and are running his and his wife's member number (from today's register purchase inside the store) for their information. COSTCO will press charges for tresspass and malicious assault of a customer. I am pressing charges for his assault. My left shoulder has sharp pain from HIM trying to jerk me outta the truck. Lucky I had my seat belt on, I think it saved me from a severe beating by keeping me in my seat. I sure hope they arrest this big fella soon.
If anyone here witnessed this incident please call SPD officer T. Saewong as your witness, case #2009-399257.

Several people/COSTCO gas customers came up to me later asking if I was ok. They thought HE knew me by him coming up and opening my truck door. But a couple saw the violent opening of the door and the look on my face as HE attempted to extract me from my truck. Everyone soon realized this was a serious incident occuring.

for the first time in my life, My Browning Hi-Power 9mm was not with me, or under my drivers seat. I Had my CWP though. If there was ever a time I may have needed it, the situation this afternoon may qualify. The Browning A-bolt 300 win mag was cased & unloaded, behind the passenger seat. I took the rifle this morning since it was the last day of bear season and who knows when scouting for late blacktail buck areas.
god helped me today or I'd be in the precinct filling out papers or worse, as I would have shot this person who out of the blue, completely startled & then assaulted me.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?
Would this have been self defense had I pulled the Browning HI Power and shot, prior to me telling him as a bluff???

PS, my nerves are still a bit rattled. Not scared of HIM so much but of what I was willing to do to defend myself. It took several minutes for me to stop the unctrollable shakes afterwards.


What year Tundra ?
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#556227 - 11/16/09 04:30 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: MAVsled]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1432
Loc: Olympia, WA
Maybe he will plea bargain and settle for getting his Costco Executive membership downgraded to a Gold membership.

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#556272 - 11/16/09 06:50 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: The Moderator]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
"As for the "self defense" thing - the guy had better have a weapon on him for you to claim "self defense". Getting your ass kicked probably won't cut it. Not too sure I'd buy the "I felt as if my life was threatened" just from getting your ass beat in parking lot."

I disagree. Once the "just getting your ass beat in a parking lot" begins there is no way to tell where it will stop. When you are on the ground getting your head kicked in you would probably wish you had been more proactive. Anyone dragging a person out of their car is more than asking for the Mozambique IMHO. Hard to imagine that wouldn't be justifiable self defense.


Edited by Keta (11/16/09 06:52 PM)
Edit Reason: correct spelling

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#556278 - 11/16/09 07:05 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Keta]
The Moderator Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 13956
Loc: Mitulaville
Originally Posted By: Keta
I disagree. Once the "just getting your ass beat in a parking lot" begins there is no way to tell where it will stop. When you are on the ground getting your head kicked in you would probably wish you had been more proactive. Anyone dragging a person out of their car is more than asking for the Mozambique IMHO. Hard to imagine that wouldn't be justifiable self defense.


This happened in a crowded Costco gas station. Tons of people there. You telling me that no one would have intervened and stopped this altercation before Mav was beaten to death?

That's what I'm saying as the dudes defense lawyer after Mav stabbed/shot my poor innocent and UNARMED client. wink

If Mav had pulled a weapon and used it, he'd probably be in jail right now.

Regardless if he was "in the right", is/was it worth it to spend some time in pokey, let alone the $$$ it's going to cost in legal fees to defend your innocence?

No.

The smart moves says leave the weapons out of the picture *unless* the situation dictates differently. Ie, I'd agree with you if it was a deserted parking lot, or if the guy pulled a weapon.
_________________________
T.K. Paker

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#556289 - 11/16/09 07:32 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: The Moderator]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7084
Loc: Everett
First Off- Mav, Good job handling this. it's clear to me by your description that you kept your cool during this assault...and to be honest, from what little I know of you, I'm not all that surprised.


Well, lets drop any assumptions we might make here about the proper response to an assault like this and look at what the law says.

From what I read here, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110,

"1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030."

This is the only RCW I can find that speaks to Self Defense, does anyone know of any different provisions?

edit, there is also this provision- Use of force, when lawful: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

and the section which applies here: " (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
"


If this is all that there is in the RCW's relating to self defense, it seems pretty clear to me that "Any reasonable means necessary" means you must respond with force equal to what is being inflicted upon you. But who's to say things wouldn't get any worse?

Speaking figuratively....if someone grabs a Knife, are you supposed to only respond with a knife?
Well, hell no.... That's totally unreasonable.
Where in the law does it specifically state, if it does...that you cannot use overpowering force while defending oneself?









Edited by Sky-Guy (11/16/09 11:03 PM)
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#556295 - 11/16/09 07:58 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Sky-Guy]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
"Reasonable Response" means how would a reasonable person respond to the threat, or more to the point, would a reasonable person determine from the threat presented that imminent death or grave injury could happen to themselves or someone else if they don't act?

Lots of folks would say "He threatened me, and I would have shot him!"...but most of them are just blowing hot airl...and if they weren't and were in this situation, they'd be in jail for something much worse than this punk is going to get.

You don't have to respond to a six inch knife with a six inch knife...if someone pulled a knife on you and a reasonable person would conclude that he intends to use it and cause grave harm or death, meeting that threat with deadly force would appropriate. Same with a baseball bat, or an iron bar.

If they are intending to kick your ass, you'd have to make a reasonable determination on where this is going to end up...not an eviable position to be in.

As a general rule...if the situation can be defused or avoided without the use of deadly force, then deadly force is per se not reasonable. If a reasonable person would conclude that it can't be avoided, and that the danger is grave harm or death, then deadly force is justified.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#556306 - 11/16/09 08:40 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Todd]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
Where I see the problem with this is how can a person depend on a bystander to intervene in stopping some thug from severely injuring you after dragging you out of your car. There is no way to tell how a situation like this is going to end up. How much of a beating are you going to take before you decide it's enough and at that point are you still capable of defending yourself?

"If they are intending to kick your ass, you'd have to make a reasonable determination on where this is going to end up...not an eviable position to be in."

How is it possible to make a reasonable determination on where an assault is going to end up. This is such a grey area. I just think that once you enter a persons vehicle or home and physically contact that person with intention of violence the line has been crossed and victim should have the benefit of the doubt.

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#556311 - 11/16/09 08:50 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Keta]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
It's hard...that's why I said it's not an enviable position to be in.

Entering your home or car, or actually contacting you, is definitely evidence that starts to pile up on the side of being able to justify being violent back...when enough piles up to cross the line, well, the unfortunate truth is that it could end up being up to a jury to decide.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#556312 - 11/16/09 08:55 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Todd]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
http://legalselfdefense.blogspot.com/2008/08/washington.html

http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/resources.aspx

Remember that the issue we're actually discussing here is "justifiable homicide" or "excusable homicide", not just mere self-defense.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#556317 - 11/16/09 09:25 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Todd]
lovetofish365 Offline
Hahahaha haha ha

Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 1870
Loc: Silverdale WA
its amazing how calm you can be under pressure like that, happens to me when life threating things happen, unless it was my old boss, then i would get anxiety....

anyway, heard if you use your gun you better keep pulling the trigger till all the rounds are gone...that would help with the "i feared for my life"....that sucks dude...c
_________________________
see ya on the river smile

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#556341 - 11/16/09 10:42 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: lovetofish365]
Chuck E Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1832
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula
And if the situation comes down to having to defend yourself with force, talk to your attorney before talking to the police. No disrepect to police but you never know what conclusions the prosecutor's office will come up with when they read the police report.
_________________________
"I didn't care what she didn't 'low--I would boogie-woogie anyhow" John Lee Hooker

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#556363 - 11/16/09 11:27 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Chuck E]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
Even though it may not feel like it, you did good. And reporting it was the right thing to do as well. Forget the "could of"/"should have"/"would have" crap......you done good.

Try not to let thoughts about it own too much of your life. It's not likely at all that you will ever experience it again, so don't bother spending your life being prepared for a situation exactly like the one you just went through.

The legal process will be slow, and likely you will get little satisfaction from the outcome. It's just one of those things. The legal system is set up for defense, not prosecution.

Be grateful....hug your wife, kids, mom....maybe Thanksgiving will be a little extra special for you this year.

The best to you and yours.
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#556366 - 11/16/09 11:34 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ParaLeaks]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
+1
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#556381 - 11/17/09 12:10 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
Any situation that allows you to go home with all of your body parts intact is a good one.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#556392 - 11/17/09 01:00 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Dogfish]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12621
Originally Posted By: Dogfish
Any situation that allows you to go home with all of your body parts intact is a good one.

Amen brother, Amen.

Glad you're OK, MAV. You done good, bro.

Little Ornamental f'r like me would probably have slipped right thru the seat belt and got my ass dragged out of the vehicle for a royal pummeling.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#556422 - 11/17/09 08:39 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
You don't always have to shoot to kill, a round in the knee will stop most folks.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#556430 - 11/17/09 09:41 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: Jerry Garcia]
shinything Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 194
Loc: kitsap
But ,Jerry I am afraid that would land you and him in jail only he would have a line of professional liars outside of his, ready to sue you, and they would probably win.

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#556433 - 11/17/09 10:15 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: shinything]
shinything Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 194
Loc: kitsap
mavsled,
Keep us posted as to what happens to this guy if anything.

I am going through a similiar situation only the perp was a drunk sailor and my girlfriend is the defendant. Broke her window out because she kicked them out of her place of employment.Two month later,no charges,and they know who did it.Keep claiming ncis is not co-operating with local cops.Cost me 250.00 for a new window.She quit because she was so scared.I am siting here wishing I would of been there.Do things the right way the legal way and nothing happens.What frustrates me even more is that I believe that law enforcement is shoving this aside because she is such a sweetie and refuses to push their buttons.The story is longer than that but not here not now.

I have become a vigilante.Not a hot head but a vigilante.You and all your weapons would of shot that guy you get twenty years he would get thirty days.Why?Because some lawyer would hire a private detective.That detective would find post like I dug up and use it against you.Right?No.Reality?yes.My post was not meant to be a personal attack.I hate hearing one side of a story,nothing to do with you,that is just me.

You are very right when you say that he probably did not take his unborn into his critical thought process.

peace and good luck.

\Edit:I need to add that it is not the police officers on the street that I have lost respect for.


Edited by shinything (11/17/09 10:30 AM)

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#556435 - 11/17/09 10:23 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: shinything]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
I'd look at it from a "what would a cop have done". A cop wouldn't have shot him. Pepper spray, taser, flashlight/club or duke it out. Taser would be cool just to watch the guy go from raging lunatic to flopping jelly fish....and a crowd pleaser to boot. One could think of this as a missed opportunity.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#556445 - 11/17/09 11:31 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: stlhead]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
Originally Posted By: stlhead
I'd look at it from a "what would a cop have done". A cop wouldn't have shot him. Pepper spray, taser, flashlight/club or duke it out. Taser would be cool just to watch the guy go from raging lunatic to flopping jelly fish....and a crowd pleaser to boot. One could think of this as a missed opportunity.


Stlhead......first off, you are dreaming.

If you want to grab a cop while he/she is in the car (any car) and try to pull the cop out of the vehicle while seat belted, I'd say that the chances of you getting out of that situation without a leak are really, really, really risky.

The pepper spray is a great idea, but you would likely get it all over yourself as well. How cool would that be?

Go ahead, swing a club/flashlight in your car, see how that works.

or

Duke it out with a monster twice as big as you.


Some great advice there. rolleyes
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#556780 - 11/18/09 05:41 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
STRIKE ZONE Offline
GOOD LUCK

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 11969
Loc: Hobart,Wa U.S.A
Wow,good job staying cool about it.Don't know what I would have done.Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

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#556876 - 11/19/09 02:07 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: STRIKE ZONE]
MAVsled Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Seattle, wa
Posted a modified version (taking out the hunting-scouting trip reference so as to remove notion of hunter from the description but leaving in the hunting gear behind the seat info), I posted the description of the assault on 2 Seattle area community blogs. What a personal awakening to the social & urban perceptions that abound!

YOU DON'T WANT TO BE JUDGED BY 12 CITIZENS ON THE JURY DECIDING A SELF DEFENSE CASE FROM SEATTLE!!

especially if YOU use a gun in defending yourself.

The responses widely ranged but predominantly were idiotic, ridiculous and anti-gun/anti-self defense.
you can bet I am pretty relieved about the end result of the whole incident. One response that "you should have showed him the love and talked him out of violence"...obviously few of these types of people have never been a victim of a serious crime against their well being.

And when I hinted about corporate-business responsibility by profit driven companies doing what they can & taking measures for safety and protection of their customers, I was very surprised. Most Agreed among themselves and fellow posters that Costco has NO obligation legally or in regards to safety precautions for addressing crimes committed against or to their members-customers-visitors on Costco business property
_________________________
chasing chrome, fur and Titleists.

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#556896 - 11/19/09 10:38 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
shinything Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 194
Loc: kitsap
That is why I referenced the old post .I tell you you would not stand a chance over there in the big city.It is to easy to pander to the emotionaly driven .Unfortunately the big cities are full of them.Their critical thought process is driven by their emotions.

The funny thing is that you probably would of found your self in the same shoes if you got out of your truck and beat this guy down.No violence,everything is equal.Do not let your kids play dodge ball.get rid of the score at the soccer game,it is not fair.throw the sixth grade bully in jail.catch a guy robbing you and give him a hand job not a bloody nose,let alone a well placed bullet where it counts.What happened to the guy that shot the thief steeling his speakers.You have a mayor that defies the state constitution at our expense and his reply when asked about is if one life is saved.It was all about getting these wacos to vote for his sorry ass.

I understand that not everybody over there is like that but judging by who is in office over there and how things are run they are the only ones that take the time to participate in the system.

I have to agree with not holding costco responsible for personal actions in there parking lot.Do that and you can go back to shopping at safeway only double the prices because there will be no Costco.

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#556903 - 11/19/09 11:40 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: shinything]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
It's not Costco's job to make you feel safe. Should each business be running their own private police force?

There are nuts everywhere. We still haven't figured out a way to prevent a nut from going in and blowing everyone away let alone an out of the blue assualt in a parking lot.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#556918 - 11/19/09 12:33 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: stlhead]
Thrasher Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Bellingham
change the story up a bit to make it a bit more interesting for us readers.

Throwing stars, ninja suits, lasers, swords...you get my drift.

2 sides to every story, for all we know, you could have given the tongue between the V in your fingers as you went driving by the couple, hence his anger.

Not saying you did, but the reader has no idea of what REALLY went down.

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#557117 - 11/20/09 12:50 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3359
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
Originally Posted By: Thrasher

Throwing stars, ninja suits, lasers, swords...you get my drift.


Aliens attacking & vampires etc..there is a tv station for that stuff. Seriously though Thrasher, sure you're just joking cause if you think someone sticking their tounge out constitutes a voilent attack then maybe you've been watching too many ninja movies.

Before pulling a weapon YOU HAVE TO TRY SOMETHING, ANYTHING else. Some won't though but most people will.

Here is what was done:
asks him to exit vehicle space and let go, warns him that he is armed, tries to dial 911 from the cell phone

"rip my cell phone out of my hands and toss it into the passenger side feet well."
"Misses with the first punch as I leaned over attempting to reach my cell phone. NOW I reach behind the seat. LOUD CLICK, I un-snap the SOC Seal Pup knife..
...HE immediately backs off"

The guy was given a chance & he wisely took it. Like I said, you have to try something else first but the reality is some won't.


WTF?

Puff..puff..pass.......
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#557143 - 11/20/09 04:49 AM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: South Sound
Just because some jackoff decides to rob you, doesn't mean it's open season:

http://www.theolympian.com/breakingnews/story/1042420.html

Shoot, Shovel, & Shut up.

He should've grabbed his stuff back, buried the sumbitch, and never said a word.

Now he's assbait in prison and the perp's next of kin get to sue him for everything the punk didn't originally steal.

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#557358 - 11/20/09 06:41 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: RowVsWade]
Satan Offline
I love me

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 1821
Loc: Around the way
Originally Posted By: RowVsWade




Puff..puff..puff the magic dragon.......


I knew you had issues.

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#557503 - 11/21/09 02:21 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: ]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1432
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: blue water pro
Just wondering if Costco gas also has a loud speaker & if so what might have happened if the attendant said via loud speaker the cops have been called & are on the way.


This might work with normal people, but probably would not work with nutcases. Case in point...when I told the individual breaking into my home that I had called the police, he suggested performing an unnatural act on them. When I told him that I had a rifle and would shoot him if he broke into my home, he suggested performing a physically impossible act on my firearm. Better come up with another option, since loudly announcing, "THE POLICE ARE COMING!!!" will probably just persuade would be interveners to stay out of the conflict.

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#557578 - 11/21/09 06:05 PM Re: almost self defense!! Your opinion? [Re: CedarR]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10363
Loc: Olypen
he suggested performing a physically impossible act on my firearm



rofl
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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