Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#555514 - 11/13/09 04:18 PM ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1597
Loc: common sense ave.
i have a few questions about what this news release says, no.1, when they say " in an attempt to improve survival and catch rates of salmon throughout the Columbia River and its tributaries", how can putting smolts in youngs bay improve catch rates throughout the columbia and its tributarys ??, no 2., if they can move the smolts to the safe area`s and increace there survival 10 fold why cant they do that in the hatcherys that they are taking them out of ??, other than holding the smolts longer how can they increase the rate 10 fold ??


http://www.cbbulletin.com/364172.aspx

Top
#555526 - 11/13/09 05:34 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: boater]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3758
Loc: Sheltona Beach
The CR is regulated only for upriver springers impacts under the ESA listing.
Harvest Management is all for maximized catch rates IMHO. They are intentionally shifting the fish from the recreational public to the commercial sites to get worked up over the harvest numbers.
Legally taking opportunity from the sportfishers in the watershed to provide more harvest. 2cents

Oh, if the fish are held back at the upriver hatcheries to long; they loose the impulse to migrate throughout the ocean in historical age class returns.
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#555531 - 11/13/09 05:40 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: slabhunter]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13609
Boater,

Depending what hatcheries the smolts come from affects the smolt outmigration mortality. That is, hatcheries farther from the ocean will have a higher smolt mortality rate than smolts leaving a hatchery or net pen that is located near the ocean. And particularly, hatcheries upstream of dams are going to have much higher smolt mortality losses than hatcheries downstream of the dams. So more smolts survive to reach the ocean, but of course those smolts do not contribute to the Columbia River fishery as returning adults except near the net pen release sites and the few nearby tributaries that the adult fish stray into.

Sg

Top
#555544 - 11/13/09 06:14 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
Twitch Offline
The Beav

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 2741
Loc: Oregon Central Coast
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Boater,

Depending what hatcheries the smolts come from affects the smolt outmigration mortality. That is, hatcheries farther from the ocean will have a higher smolt mortality rate than smolts leaving a hatchery or net pen that is located near the ocean. And particularly, hatcheries upstream of dams are going to have much higher smolt mortality losses than hatcheries downstream of the dams. So more smolts survive to reach the ocean, but of course those smolts do not contribute to the Columbia River fishery as returning adults except near the net pen release sites and the few nearby tributaries that the adult fish stray into.

Sg


Thanks Salmo, you saved me a response. Smolts are coming from McKenzie, and Leaburg hatcheries, via lib truck.
_________________________
[Bleeeeep!], the cup of ignorance in this thread overfloweth . . . Salmo g
Truth be told, I've always been a fan of the Beavs. -Dan S.


Top
#555545 - 11/13/09 06:15 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Right now there releasing about 6 million smolts and returning about 50 to 60k adults on a average year, less than 1%. So 250000 smolts would be equal to about 2000 to 2500 adults in the willamette, moving them to YB with a 2 or 3% percent survival rate should come out to somewhere between 4000 and 7500 fish returning. Impacts on the gillnet are still 100% but the mark rate in the terminal fisherys rises from 80/20 in the river to a couple of hundred to one. So it gives more fish to commercials and gives more impacts to sport plus whatever steelhead are saved. Works on paper atleast.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



Top
#555552 - 11/13/09 06:31 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: SBD]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Also interesting enough the tribes don't count terminal fish in there agreement so any fish caught in YB don't come out of the 50/50 catch sharing. Which leaves more for sport something that seining the mainstem won't.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



Top
#555554 - 11/13/09 06:38 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: SBD]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3758
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Originally Posted By: SBD
So it gives more fish to commercials and gives more impacts to sport plus whatever steelhead are saved. Works on paper atleast.


I disagree. There is nothing in this shift to keep the gillnets off the mainstem CR. Bycatch of steelhead and sturgeon will continue until they are listed too. beathead
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#555556 - 11/13/09 06:45 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: slabhunter]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
No it doesn't other than providing the same amount in a different place, so the more caught in the terminal area's reduces the commercial catch mainstem in the commsion's eyes. Its this 400 pound monkey wrench the tribes just threw down stream that changes the whole selective fishery plan.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



Top
#555561 - 11/13/09 06:56 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: SBD]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3758
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Originally Posted By: SBD
Also interesting enough the tribes don't count terminal fish in there agreement so any fish caught in YB don't come out of the 50/50 catch sharing. Which leaves more for sport something that seining the mainstem won't.


Again this does not change the allocation on the mainstem. WDFW and ODFW are shifting fish to the commercial sites. Yet, allowing the most harmful, least sustainable methods of commercial harvest on more the wild segment in the mainstem.
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#555572 - 11/13/09 07:14 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: slabhunter]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
Slab two problems now, it used to be just impacts and life was simple. Now the tribes don't care how hard anyone works to be more selective when we reach 50% of what they can catch with setnets, its over no matter what. Get the tribes to do some seining or tangle netting and its a whole new ballgame, maybe Barrack and Jane can go smoke peacepipe with them.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



Top
#555586 - 11/13/09 07:48 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: SBD]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3758
Loc: Sheltona Beach
I'm in no hurry, and don't smoke.

The tribal below Bonnie is a red herring thrown out to stir the pot.
I've seen these folks and thanked some of them for standing up for conservation before harvest. If not for the tribes we would no longer have springers or steelhead to argue about.

We're walking through the clouds. Nothing moves to a reduction on the mainstem. Long distance run around.
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

Top
#555724 - 11/14/09 01:48 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1597
Loc: common sense ave.
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Boater,

Depending what hatcheries the smolts come from affects the smolt outmigration mortality. That is, hatcheries farther from the ocean will have a higher smolt mortality rate than smolts leaving a hatchery or net pen that is located near the ocean. And particularly, hatcheries upstream of dams are going to have much higher smolt mortality losses than hatcheries downstream of the dams. So more smolts survive to reach the ocean, but of course those smolts do not contribute to the Columbia River fishery as returning adults except near the net pen release sites and the few nearby tributaries that the adult fish stray into.

Sg


but, according to cwt data the YB smolt SARs fall in the middle of Clack and McKenzie smolt release survivals (SARs for YB smolts at about 0.7% with the Clack at about 1% and the McKenzie at 0.5%), if there is a ten fold increase in survival that would mean the clack fish are going up to 10 percent ??, do you believe that ??

Top
#555725 - 11/14/09 01:49 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: slabhunter]
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1597
Loc: common sense ave.
Originally Posted By: slabhunter


Again this does not change the allocation on the mainstem.



i agree, this wont even be mentioned at the meetings.

Top
#555729 - 11/14/09 02:11 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: boater]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13609
Boater,

Just cuz someone says the survival rate is increased 10X doesn't mean it is unless there are data supporting the allegation. I'm doubtful of 10X, but the 3 to 6X increase SBD posted seems plausible.

What gets me is the interests on the McKenzie that are being shorted; or are these YB smolts the result of a specific program of "extra" production.

Sg

Top
#555730 - 11/14/09 02:12 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: boater]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12620
Please remember that NOTHING precludes sporties from fishing the SAFE zones. NOTHING!

Sporties can even fish there during the off days of the week (and we will surely be limited to to fishing fixed days of the week this year) that the mainstem CR is closed to springers.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#555732 - 11/14/09 02:19 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12620
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Boater,

Just cuz someone says the survival rate is increased 10X doesn't mean it is unless there are data supporting the allegation. I'm doubtful of 10X, but the 3 to 6X increase SBD posted seems plausible.

What gets me is the interests on the McKenzie that are being shorted; or are these YB smolts the result of a specific program of "extra" production.

Sg


My understanding is that the deal is a TRANSFER of smolts... not a windfall of surplus production.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#555734 - 11/14/09 02:22 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1597
Loc: common sense ave.
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.


Just cuz someone says the survival rate is increased 10X doesn't mean it is unless there are data supporting the allegation.



Biologists believe the stocking at Young's Bay may result in a 10-fold increase in survival and catch rates because the fish will be released closer to the ocean at a size and time of year that is more conducive to spring chinook out-migration.

i will email them and ask them for the data that will back up that statement.

Top
#559168 - 11/26/09 03:40 PM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Salmo g.]
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1597
Loc: common sense ave.
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Boater,

Just cuz someone says the survival rate is increased 10X doesn't mean it is unless there are data supporting the allegation.



there is data that supports this, i will try to get permission from the author to post it here.

Top
#559252 - 11/27/09 05:00 AM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: boater]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3116
Originally Posted By: boater
Originally Posted By: slabhunter


Again this does not change the allocation on the mainstem.



i agree, this wont even be mentioned at the meetings.


It can be, but its a hatchery allocation fight, which cca wont do, so its up to others. Only allocation fight they care about is to reduce the commercial side of the impacts.

I heard from Goose on the other site that some hatchery fish are being moved to safe areas on the wa side, and Im not sure if he mentioned the cowlitz in particular. If they are pre-allocating out of the hatchery and dedicating it, to YB or other safe areas, its a shell game in the allocation game. Not only do sports get shorted, the tribes will eventually hollar about that allocation, as will the upriver sports.

SBD The colville tribe has already tested seine nets for two years and will be switching over, hopefully this year. The seine nets will level the playing field again between the tribe and non tribal. Considering the extra allocation they will get for the next three years, I doubt the safe areas, will continue to get a free ride, when selective harvest will acomplish the same reduction in impacts.

One other thing I wanted to throw out about the returns. Seems like everyone jumps for joy on the jack counts. I talked a guide friend, who spoke with the department about some Jacks that were up river. Im not sure, but these might have been jacks they caught and might have had tags in them. If that doesnt add up in anyones logic, I will call him and verify it. Anyway, they werent jacks, they were small mature fish. It makes me wonder if using the jack count is relied upon to predict the next years adult run. I know you guys know, but I havent followed that in detail. I dont fish it.

Top
#559256 - 11/27/09 10:16 AM Re: ODFW smolt transfer to youngs bay questions [Re: Fast and Furious]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3731
Loc: Water
LB I was just showing an article that the Nez Pierce are jumping into the game. Four years ago it was 2 steehead now their catching hundreds of fish and looking at commercial markets. I believe they are a treaty tribe so the catch sharing applies to them, just one more mouth to feed.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
Cap'n Ron, Fred N, gvbest, Ray S.
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (Excitable Bob), 996 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
MegaBite, haydenslides, Scvette, Sunafresco, Trotter
11505 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 27840
Dan S. 16958
Sol Duc 15727
The Moderator 13951
Salmo g. 13609
eyeFISH 12620
STRIKE ZONE 11969
Dogfish 10878
ParaLeaks 10363
Jerry Garcia 9013
Forum Stats
11505 Members
17 Forums
73011 Topics
825940 Posts

Max Online: 3937 @ 07/19/24 03:28 AM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |