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#562978 - 12/09/09 09:23 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: NW Steel]
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Originally Posted By: NW Steel
So if your confused as to why less fish are at the redds in oregon look north its the same everywhere. Just because you dont have a commerical fishery doesnt mean that nobody else does.


Could you provide me some info on ocean harvest of Oregon steelhead please? I'd like to know where the Oregon coastal steelhead are being harvested in the ocean.
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#562979 - 12/09/09 09:27 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: Steelheadman]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
just gonna put this out here cause I wana hear some other people's opinions:
You look at AK and canada. One of the most notible differences in those two managment styles vs ours is they have semi/hard #'s of fish returns (especially AK). BC has the Tyee test fishery, and while it may not be the most accurate system it at least gives them an idea. AK has alot more weirs and sonar counts to givethem in season estimates on the runs and will make in season regulation changes based on the #s.
Why cant we have some sort of weir of sonar on the Quilluite, Hoh, and whatever other rivers.
People may say lack of funds. why cant we charge an extra $5 or so on licenses to fund the weir or sonar sytem? Having the man power to run it isnt hard, just hire some grad students from fisheries schools to oporate them liek they do for the summer.
I think having these numbers would:
A) give us an ACCURATE # of fish in systems (I just cant believe red counts are all that spot on especially when the tribes are invovled)
B) Allow us to build a data base of better, more accurate run history
C) judging by historical run data be perform a better job of in season management.
D) I think "IF"(very big if and I am aware this wouldnt be as simple as i think it should be) this was in place, it would aslo hold WDWF accountable to fixing problems because there would be #'s shoved in their face of how bad things are and there would be no if ands or buts.

Also pay for extra enfocement to patrol areas like richwine so no "old timmer" can take his one for the day and be back plunking in the line the next day or trying to kill his next fish on the hoh the next.
and last but not least hire someone to sit by the Savage nets and count how many fish Jonas is really killing.

my $.02, any good?
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#562983 - 12/09/09 09:39 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: Wild Chrome]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
Steelhead don't show up in any offshore American net fisherie, that includes pollock and whiting mid water, bottom trawl or any open ocean seine fisheries.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



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#562988 - 12/09/09 09:51 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: kevin lund]
sykofish Offline
I'm not short, I'm 'fun size'

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1511
Loc: Mulletville
Originally Posted By: kevin lund

You can't have harvest be a problem when you don't harvest any fish. Look at the Chum runs in the Tillamook district. I constantly refer back to the Nehalem as an indicator stock for wild steelhead. There are multilple reasons, but the best one is the lack of disruption from man. it is as pure as it can get. This River has good years and it has bad ones.




Please Kevin.....Get a clue!

You need to go for a ride with me around the upper Nehalem and some of it's tribs.

It is anything but pure.

Coastal stocks in N.W. Oregon are in much better shape than they were 20 years ago. CnR of natives is probably the biggest reason.

But now, people think we need to take native stocks out of the gravel to create broodstock fish.

So the decline continues once again.
_________________________


Rusty Bell

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#562992 - 12/09/09 10:06 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: OPfisher]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: OPfisher
just gonna put this out here cause I wana hear some other people's opinions:
You look at AK and canada. One of the most notible differences in those two managment styles vs ours is they have semi/hard #'s of fish returns (especially AK). BC has the Tyee test fishery, and while it may not be the most accurate system it at least gives them an idea. AK has alot more weirs and sonar counts to givethem in season estimates on the runs and will make in season regulation changes based on the #s.
Why cant we have some sort of weir of sonar on the Quilluite, Hoh, and whatever other rivers.
People may say lack of funds. why cant we charge an extra $5 or so on licenses to fund the weir or sonar sytem? Having the man power to run it isnt hard, just hire some grad students from fisheries schools to oporate them liek they do for the summer.
I think having these numbers would:
A) give us an ACCURATE # of fish in systems (I just cant believe red counts are all that spot on especially when the tribes are invovled)
B) Allow us to build a data base of better, more accurate run history
C) judging by historical run data be perform a better job of in season management.
D) I think "IF"(very big if and I am aware this wouldnt be as simple as i think it should be) this was in place, it would aslo hold WDWF accountable to fixing problems because there would be #'s shoved in their face of how bad things are and there would be no if ands or buts.

Also pay for extra enfocement to patrol areas like richwine so no "old timmer" can take his one for the day and be back plunking in the line the next day or trying to kill his next fish on the hoh the next.
and last but not least hire someone to sit by the Savage nets and count how many fish Jonas is really killing.

my $.02, any good?


I like Opie's idea! The only downside is the Tyee Test fishery where they gauge run sizes with gill nets and have been inherently unpredictable at estimating runs. The sonar system makes sense and I would love to hear more input on this.
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#562993 - 12/09/09 10:08 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: OPfisher]
NW Steel Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Sultan, WA
https://digital.lib.washington.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1773/4115/8913.pdf?sequence=1
http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/fish/steelhd.php
The first website goes over steelhead migration the second is an acknowldgement by alaska that it accidently catches steelhead in the open seas. You can put 2+2 together.
You can't not prove that open seas by-catch in alaska or other parts of the world is not at all from oregon, all of these fish all follow the same migratory patterns, and like it or not other countries and states end up intentionally or accidently harvesting our fish. Fish runs are very close together its ignorant to think that steelhead are no where near the salmon fishing grounds or for that matter anywhere near the terminal fisheries up north, they also run very close to beaches and in fairly shallow waters. You will never find exact numbers as to how many end up in the nets inside or outside of oregon but to not think that a large percentage of these fish end up as by-catch is crazy its just reported as by-catch, just too many nets in the water to not intercept our fish salmon and steelhead. Im not blaming alaska or any of asia for our fish declines i think that they are part of the problem just as we are in the lower 48. I had the privialge of taking a tribal council member from one of our states tribes on a fishing trip and got the skinny on who and how much people were paying for our steelhead. As for who was buying that river systems fish it was all from asian markets. As for the money It wasnt top dollar get rich quick money but it was still good money, much better than it used to be.

Now i will touch on wilds question, just my opinion if they actually knew what was going on they would have to do something about it, and its not the cost of putting stuff like that in its the cost of what happens after they put that in.
_________________________
Die hard bug chucker

Joe Ewing
www.northweststeelheading.com
info@northweststeelheading.com

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#562995 - 12/09/09 10:26 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: cobble cruiser]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Originally Posted By: OPfisher
just gonna put this out here cause I wana hear some other people's opinions:
You look at AK and canada. One of the most notible differences in those two managment styles vs ours is they have semi/hard #'s of fish returns (especially AK). BC has the Tyee test fishery, and while it may not be the most accurate system it at least gives them an idea. AK has alot more weirs and sonar counts to givethem in season estimates on the runs and will make in season regulation changes based on the #s.
Why cant we have some sort of weir of sonar on the Quilluite, Hoh, and whatever other rivers.
People may say lack of funds. why cant we charge an extra $5 or so on licenses to fund the weir or sonar sytem? Having the man power to run it isnt hard, just hire some grad students from fisheries schools to oporate them liek they do for the summer.
I think having these numbers would:
A) give us an ACCURATE # of fish in systems (I just cant believe red counts are all that spot on especially when the tribes are invovled)
B) Allow us to build a data base of better, more accurate run history
C) judging by historical run data be perform a better job of in season management.
D) I think "IF"(very big if and I am aware this wouldnt be as simple as i think it should be) this was in place, it would aslo hold WDWF accountable to fixing problems because there would be #'s shoved in their face of how bad things are and there would be no if ands or buts.

Also pay for extra enfocement to patrol areas like richwine so no "old timmer" can take his one for the day and be back plunking in the line the next day or trying to kill his next fish on the hoh the next.
and last but not least hire someone to sit by the Savage nets and count how many fish Jonas is really killing.

my $.02, any good?


I like Opie's idea! The only downside is the Tyee Test fishery where they gauge run sizes with gill nets and have been inherently unpredictable at estimating runs. The sonar system makes sense and I would love to hear more input on this.


Ya, I was just kinda using it as a way they keep track of #s not for the fact that there are two of the finest fish ever now sitting in the air port thanks to it smile
_________________________
watch out for the "Untra Lof Jags"

http://www.olympicpeninsulaoutfitters.net/
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Olympic-Peninsula-Outfitters/

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#562996 - 12/09/09 10:28 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: NW Steel]
OPtoKenai Offline
Smolt

Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 94
Loc: Aberdeen Wa
I cannot say that I trust any info from the Kenai sonar. We have the "Fox in the Hen house".

If there were working sonar stations on the Coast they could really optimize their net schedule!!
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http://www.wynoocheesteelhead.com/

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#562998 - 12/09/09 10:32 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: NW Steel]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
Originally Posted By: NW Steel

You can't not prove that open seas by-catch in alaska or other parts of the world is not at all from oregon, all of these fish all follow the same migratory patterns, and like it or not other countries and states end up intentionally or accidently harvesting our fish. Fish runs are very close together its ignorant to think that steelhead are no where near the salmon fishing grounds or for that matter anywhere near the terminal fisheries up north, they also run very close to beaches and in fairly shallow waters. You will never find exact numbers as to how many end up in the nets inside or outside of oregon but to not think that a large percentage of these fish end up as by-catch is crazy its just reported as by-catch, just too many nets in the water to not intercept our fish salmon and steelhead. Im not blaming alaska or any of asia for our fish declines i think that they are part of the problem just as we are in the lower 48.


I, nor anyone I ever met in fisheries could tell you the exact routes, there's too many unknowns. But I will say you're spot on with some ammount of by-catch in AK commercial fishing nets. One of my best fishing buddies worked on a boat in the 90s and the only steelhead he has ever gotten to hold in his life was about a 30lb two tone salt fish they pursained (sp?) up and he tried to get it back in the water.
I have a highschool firend who spends his summers netting out of SE and he's told me of quite a few steelehad finding their way into the nets frown
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#562999 - 12/09/09 10:39 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: OPtoKenai]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
Originally Posted By: OPtoKenai
I cannot say that I trust any info from the Kenai sonar. We have the "Fox in the Hen house".

If there were working sonar stations on the Coast they could really optimize their net schedule!!


I trust the Kenai one, spent enough time on that river to say that when the sonar said there werent enough kings in the river, it seemed to be true. same goes for sockeye numbers there too. Dont you think part of it could be the state being smart enough to be careful with such a HUGE money maker for them? the fishery on the peninsula is worth $$$$$ and if they miss manage it they loose out big time!
There are numerous sonar stations and weir that work very well are and key management tools all accross AK.
To fix the savage problem the deffinition of harvistable fish would need to be drawn out or in a perfect world be changed to non.
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#563000 - 12/09/09 10:51 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: OPfisher]
kevin lund Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 932
Loc: gales creek, or
What or who do we give credit to when our steelhead populations on the OP show numbers above escapement goals? We all know the factors that lead to the demise of the runs.
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http://www.kevinlundfishingguide.com/
Proud member of the CCA
"BOCLMN"
Kevin Lund

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#563003 - 12/09/09 11:00 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: kevin lund]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just because steelhead are not being harvested does not mean that harvest is not what is clobbering steelhead. If you want a lot of wild steelhead in the rivers, then lay off the coho.

Those who say harvest is not the problem look at harvest on a species by species, stock by stock basis. Overharvest is when too many fish are removed from the ecosystem.

It may be that on some sywstems it is overharvesty of herring, or some other baitfish, that is holding some other stocfk down. It is a system out there, not a collection of independent operators.

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#563008 - 12/09/09 11:12 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: kevin lund]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
we'll figure that out when they make or exceed escapement smile
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#563016 - 12/09/09 11:34 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: stlhdr1]
FLEX Offline
Egg

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2
Early to Mid 70's the tribes had a QUOTA!!! once they reached it ,they were done!!!!!! Usually by the first week in Jan... they cried for a few years saying that too many fish were getting by, and then the DAYS OF THE WEEK thing started...In the 80"s 2-3 days was the norm.... the fish were being sold on the East Coast, there was somewhat of a record being kept by the tribes... they followed their day shedule fairly close. The 90'S, Well lets just say the beginning of the end...5 days a week sometimes 7... 2-3 refer vans a week leaving the rez, bound for who knows where... OVER Harvest is an understatement!!!! 2000- 2009 More of the same!!! 5-7 days a week..The introduction and mastering of Drift Netting( 100 times more affective) Ceremonial fishing whenever they want..10s of thousands of pounds a week leave the OP in fish totes... these fish are not counted !!! They are caught and sold right on the gravel bar to your local markets..All over the State of Wa and Oregon, Albertsons , Fred Meyer, Pike Place market and over 25 restaurants in the Seattle area... All in All, whatever we do, CONSERVATION!!! It all starts at the mouth of the river, Period!!!! End of story.... IT will never get any better until the Tribes cut back !!!!!!!!..

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#563018 - 12/09/09 11:37 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: OPfisher]
kevin lund Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 932
Loc: gales creek, or
We all agree that our wild steelhead population are down.
We all agree that the reasons are harvest, habitat, human activty, and the Ocean.


When you figure out where those steelhead go in the ocean, you will have a ton of answers to these debates.
_________________________
http://togiakriverlodge.net/
http://www.kevinlundfishingguide.com/
Proud member of the CCA
"BOCLMN"
Kevin Lund

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#563021 - 12/09/09 11:45 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: ]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
Open ocean is different than inside gillneting and seining, which are targeting local stocks. Yes high sea's gillnetting by Asian countries south of the Aleutian Islands were intercepting steelhead from the Westcoast but except for a few pirates from China most have been shut down by treaties.
_________________________


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#563024 - 12/09/09 11:53 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: SBD]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
php.ptagis.org/wiki/index.php/Titi_Recovery


I'll see if link works, nice chart of steelhead migration routes
_________________________


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#563025 - 12/09/09 11:55 PM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: NW Steel]
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Thanks for that UW link, NW Steel. Intersting study, if a little dated and low-tech by today's standards.

I'm not sure what to make of ocean steelhead harvest, in part because I was taught that steelhead school only very loosely in the ocean and therefore are difficult for commercials to target. True? False? Unknown?
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

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#563026 - 12/10/09 12:00 AM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: FLEX]
NW Steel Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Sultan, WA
Flex,
like it or not with the exception of the random guy that buys it on the beach any fish that is sold by the tribe if not reported by the tribe is reported by the buyers if the buyers would like to continue to buy fish. it is up to the tribes to regulate themselves because we have no say anymore if ever we did. i would say cut the buyers off but that doesnt work ive seen that before there is nothing sadder than thousands of pounds of fish sitting in crates rotting because either nobody will by them or the price is $0.10 or less a pound. That still wont stop them from fishing them.
The other problem that has gone on over in the op is poaching both by the tribe and the white man. i know one tribe that has a new guy who has gone after the tribal side of the poaching, not a well liked man down there but a good man. I wouldnt want to be in his shoes. But we are just as bad, some of the C&R that i have seen (dropping a fish on the rocks 10ft from the water and then kicking it back to the river is not good practice), and just hearing people tell me flat out that they kept more than there one (when they shouldnt be keeping any) is out of control as well. Be mad at the people who set the rules or those that dont stand up for what is right, the tribes have the right to fish, (i know there is some political stuff that went on behind the scenes on this but,) if we continue to keep fish out of the op rivers are we not just as much to blame. For instance just using random numbers dont know exact but im just using this to prove a point. On the Quiluite system lets say there are 3,000 fishermen during the wild winter run and 30% didnt practice C&R and everybody only kept there one fish thats still 900 fish killed by sportsman. 900 fish is too many fish for whiteman or tribe, both parties need to knock this sh$t off let them go for a while and see where it ends up.
_________________________
Die hard bug chucker

Joe Ewing
www.northweststeelheading.com
info@northweststeelheading.com

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#563028 - 12/10/09 12:21 AM Re: Some disturbing numbers for the Quillayute sys [Re: NW Steel]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
look how well C&R worked on the kispiox......................
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