Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#569311 - 01/05/10 02:53 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: summerrun]
BrianL Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 409
Loc: Bothell, WA
That questions is currently being 'debated' on a couple other fly sites. Beyond the legal definitions applied by States to "Fly Fishing Only" waters, the answer is . . . whatever you want it to be!

Fly rods are used for all kinds of things. Bob uses one to soak eggs under the boat for Kasilof Silvers. Others toss mono on the reel and drift-fish with them. Some put on dink floats and fish 1/4oz jigs. You could probably herd cats with one too.

I'm of the opinion that you use the best tool for the job. If I want to fish jigs, it's a gear rod (preferably a centerpin). Ditto for drift fishing. I don't enjoy casting big hunks of lead with a fly rod. Others can call it flyfishing if they want - I'm not going to waste time arguing.

It cracks me up tho, people that want to say "I caught a Steelhead on a flyrod". They get some guide on the Sol Duc to Back-Troll their bobber and jig (oops . . . I meant Indicator and Nymph) behind some big boulders using the classic 'swing' of the bow of the drift boat to get their offering in position. Eventually it's FISH ON and they get to pose with their prize.

For me, flyfishing isn't about anything other than that I enjoy the experience of swinging flies, either floating line or sinktip, for steelhead more than any other type of fishing. I'm not claiming it's the most difficult or the most artistic. I just enjoy the process of working a run this way.

As Skykomish Sunrise suggested in an earlier post, if the water isn't suited to swinging a fly I'll just fish with a gear rod. More fun than trying to make the fly rod do something it's not well suited for (IMO).

It's your fly rod - I think you should use it however you want to!

YMMV,

Brian / Doublespey

Top
#569568 - 01/06/10 01:28 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: summerrun]
OPfisher Offline
The Golden Boy

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1506
Loc: wa/ak
Originally Posted By: summerrun
To maybe start an argument but all in good spirit: Is "bead" fishing really flyfishing just because it is on a flyrod?

Cheers


Of corse beads are float and jig fishing.... I mean nymphing, I mean fly fishing wink

Really, who cares, if you're happy catching more fish nymphing, cool! If you wana swing all day for a tug, cool too!

Sam- yes, Thats how I swing anymore. just got 4 new spey & switch rods. Now all I need is it to be march and april and Im in business!!!!!! smile
_________________________
watch out for the "Untra Lof Jags"

http://www.olympicpeninsulaoutfitters.net/
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Olympic-Peninsula-Outfitters/

Top
#569666 - 01/06/10 07:31 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: ColeyG]
Leopardbow Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 173
Loc: Ferndale
Originally Posted By: ColeyG
How about a slight modification/expansion to the original question.

1. Favorite pattern to fish.
2. Favorite pattern to tie.
3. Most effective pattern.

With respect to the original question, I tend to mix things up based on factors other than river "size" and/or type. More often, water conditions, what I know about the water being fished (depth, speed, micro-features), and it's likelihood of holding fish.

If I am working a piece of water rather than fishing on the go (gear or feathers) I typically start big and finish small while trying to achieve some sort of color/contrast change in the process. I like the way those intruder style flies look, along with anything incorporating some long and thick rabbit, rhea, peacock, or ostrich to get a lengthy, swimming profile. Action, action, action. If you think color matters, than it probably does. If you don't think it does, than it won't.

Whether fishing with gear or feathers, if I am working a piece of water, I typically start big and finish small, start flashy and bold and finish natural. In the case of feathers, big meaning a 4-5 inch fly or 10-12 mil egg pattern. Small meaning a classic spey pattern or 8 mil egg.

I am sad and glad to say, I haven't put in much time swinging flies for steelhead. In fact, I can count all of the steelhead I have hooked on the swing using three fingers. However, I nymph behind guys swinging flies for steelhead all of the time and usually out fish them 6 to 1 smile I have yet to witness the swing accounting for more fish than a dead drifted presentation. I am sure it has happened, perhaps with some regularity, but I haven't seen it.

My vote for most effective would have to go to a 10 mil egg pattern in bubble gum pink.







Looking at the picture, are you nymphing with a spey rod????

Top
#570141 - 01/07/10 09:51 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: summerrun]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: summerrun

I guess my real question is what defines flyfishing?


You do. And I do. We all do. Those many that have come before, and all of those that will come after.

In any given pursuit, it seems like there are those that gravitate to and/or strive for a certain level of purity. What defines "pure" is often the subject of great debate and many unwinnable arguments stemming from opinions driven by great passion for the game, or, in some cases, a general proclivity for conflict smile On the flip side, there are others, perhaps the majority, that tend to dabble in and dwell more towards the surface level of knowledge and ability, while either not caring for, or not knowing much about things like style or the purists definition of this or that. Of course many lie somewhere in between.

To me, pure fly fishing is fishing with a fly rod, fly line, and hand made fly constructed out of synthetic or natural materials. I realize that there are many levels beyond that, most with merit, but that is just about as far as I have time or care to take the issue both in personal value and in conversation.

Most anything that you can fish with a gear rod you can fish with a fly rod and vice versa. Beyond enjoyment of the process and purity of the pursuit, I tent to focus on effectiveness. I can fish a bead or glo bug rig far more effectively with my center pin rod than I can the fly rod. In most instances, I can fish that same water far more effectively with a long float rod and bait casting rig and the same terminal tackle. Why choose one over the others. Only you can answer that. For me, depends on the day.

I hate fishing the bead for the same reasons I dislike many forms of fishing. It's tedious, redundant and robot like, at times boring, it feels like a compromise, removes me from the best part of the strike, and, as KK likes to say, is the "fly fishing" equivalent of kissing your sister. That having been said, catching fish is fun, and so I do it.

I just got a handful of rhea feathers in the mail a few days back. Been playing around with some ostrich, marabou, rabbit and rhea combinations and have been having fun so far.

Good stuff guys.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

Top
#570144 - 01/07/10 09:53 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: OPfisher]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: OPfisher
Now all I need is it to be march, april, SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER and Im in business!!!!!! smile


Minor correction smile
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

Top
#570440 - 01/08/10 05:38 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: ColeyG]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: ColeyG
Originally Posted By: summerrun

I guess my real question is what defines flyfishing?


You do. And I do. We all do. Those many that have come before, and all of those that will come after.

In any given pursuit, it seems like there are those that gravitate to and/or strive for a certain level of purity. What defines "pure" is often the subject of great debate and many unwinnable arguments stemming from opinions driven by great passion for the game, or, in some cases, a general proclivity for conflict smile On the flip side, there are others, perhaps the majority, that tend to dabble in and dwell more towards the surface level of knowledge and ability, while either not caring for, or not knowing much about things like style or the purists definition of this or that. Of course many lie somewhere in between.

To me, pure fly fishing is fishing with a fly rod, fly line, and hand made fly constructed out of synthetic or natural materials. I realize that there are many levels beyond that, most with merit, but that is just about as far as I have time or care to take the issue both in personal value and in conversation.

Most anything that you can fish with a gear rod you can fish with a fly rod and vice versa. Beyond enjoyment of the process and purity of the pursuit, I tent to focus on effectiveness. I can fish a bead or glo bug rig far more effectively with my center pin rod than I can the fly rod. In most instances, I can fish that same water far more effectively with a long float rod and bait casting rig and the same terminal tackle. Why choose one over the others. Only you can answer that. For me, depends on the day.

I hate fishing the bead for the same reasons I dislike many forms of fishing. It's tedious, redundant and robot like, at times boring, it feels like a compromise, removes me from the best part of the strike, and, as KK likes to say, is the "fly fishing" equivalent of kissing your sister. That having been said, catching fish is fun, and so I do it.

I just got a handful of rhea feathers in the mail a few days back. Been playing around with some ostrich, marabou, rabbit and rhea combinations and have been having fun so far.

Good stuff guys.


My philosophy on these matters is very similar to yours in that I tend to factor effectiveness into my decisions on how and with what to fish. Granted, I have my own long, complicated list of preferences, but in the end, it would be dishonest for me to say I am so married to those preferences that I will accept a low probability of catching fish in favor of being able to use my favorite methods exclusively.

As for purity, there are far too many definitions around "pure" fly fishing to allow any of them to be absolute. At one extreme, there is a contingent that believes fishing only needs to be done with a fly rod and fly line to be legitimately considered fly fishing. Personally, I feel this definition falls a bit short in that something called "Fly fishing" should involve something called a "fly," but my opinion doesn't make theirs any less valid.

At the other extreme, there are those who will argue that the only true fly fishing is done with a floating line and a dry fly that "matches the hatch," fished on a dead drift. This basically describes the early British method, which most agree was not the original method. One school of thought (see Wikipedia) states that the origins of fly fishing lie in Macedonia, where an elite group of fishermen are said to have cast chunks of red wool and a couple of non-descript cock feathers tied to a hook into small streams, using a 6-foot rod and a 6-foot length of line. This "fly," by modern definitions, would be classified as an attractor pattern, and the concept of this being the original method of fly fishing seems to suggest that the most pure (if that is defined by originality) forms of fly fishing bear more similarity to fishing yarn flies and beads on a dead drift for steelhead, which is a relatively young practice, than the traditional British methods.

Ultimately, I think being overly concerned with purity, however you define it, can severely limit one's ability to catch fish, especially when targeting fish like freshwater salmon and steelhead, who are much more concerned with staking their claim to a redd and a mate than a meal. I am convinced that steelhead (particularly summer runs, who spend a good deal more time in freshwater than winter runs or salmon) will eat, but a lot more of them probably bite as a response to a stimulus in a presentation that triggers an instinctive strike than in the name of eating.

My favorite methods of fishing for steelhead involve swinging flies (wet or dry) through a fish's holding area, but I don't limit myself to those methods, for these reasons:

  • That type of fishing requires a very specific type of holding water that is more abundant in some streams than in others, but regardless does not represent the only water that will hold fish.
  • Being primarily a bank angler, there is a definite limit to the amount of the aforementioned holding water that I can get to from a given public access point.
  • I occasionally enjoy switching up methods to break the monotony of a slow day.

As for fishing with beads, yarn, jigs, etc., I am not above doing it, and in fact, I sometimes enjoy it. As much as I wish I could say that I catch most of my fish on elegant spey flies that I spent hours to tie, to do so would be to lie. I have caught more fish on a puff of yarn (with or without a bead), if I'm being honest, and I find it very challenging to consistently achieve the kind of dead drifts required to effectively fish such lures, so I don't think it makes me any less of a fly rod fisher guy in terms of skills than someone who swings exclusively.

My bottom line is a common one in this thread - do what makes you happy, with no regard to what others think (as long as you aren't intentionally flossing/snagging fish). And if you're out there nymphing a piece of pocket water one day and a guy with a spey rod* walks by you with his nose in the air on his way to the one productive tailout within the accessible mile of the river, take comfort in these facts:

  • He is walking past a lot of good holding water that you will be able to fish.
  • You are probably more of a "purist" than he is, if history is any indication.

* Note that I do not intend to classify spey fishermen as elitists. To do so would be far from the truth, and furthermore it would be to condemn myself, who also takes pleasure in the fine art of spey casting. I just needed someone to pick on to make my point.

Top
#570760 - 01/09/10 06:37 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
Flies vary to the situation, the bigger question is what is your favorite line for a varying piece of water. The other important perspective to learn is how to fish your fly effectively on the swing. Lines and fishing your fly effectively is what is going to get you your grabs.
_________________________
Decisions and changes seldom occur by posting on Internet bulletin boards.

Top
#570942 - 01/10/10 05:52 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Double Haul]
Gray Ghost Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 148
Loc: Washington
Well said Double Haul. You can have a fly box full of awesome patterns. If they are not presented effectively, hook ups will be at a minimum. Some fly patterns, just by the way they are designed, will give you a better presentation. For Winter Steelhead flies, a fly designed to sink and swing balanced and level will give you a much better presentation, than a fly that is not evenly balanced. An evenly balanced Winter Steelhead fly can be achieved numerous ways by tying with: 60 degree fly/jig hooks, Brass tubes, Buck tail wings and tails in conjunction with front barbell eyes and mid - weighting with metal beads, cones and lead. Something to think about if you tye your own. Presentation is everything.

Top
#571602 - 01/12/10 02:30 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Gray Ghost]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Regarding what fly fishing is contrasted to spin/bait fishing can be fun. On average, fly fishing enhances the prospects of catching trout and reduces the chance of catching a steelhead. If the method involves split shot or a slinky, it isn't fly fishing. In this modern age of so many alternatives, the only way to be certain one is fly fishing is to fish a rod made of split cane, a fly reel made in England, a silk line, gut leader, and flies tied with natural materials only. Falling anywhere short of that is to risk being labeled a bait slinger by somebody. And if that matters, one has problems of a different sort.

Sg

Top
#571604 - 01/12/10 02:32 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Salmo g.]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
sure thing there baitguy...

Top
#571889 - 01/12/10 10:56 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: LoweDown]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
The "G." in Salmo G. stands for 'Gutslinger'.

rofl
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#572043 - 01/13/10 12:59 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Dan S.]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Dan, that was supposed to remain covert!

Top
#572690 - 01/14/10 11:03 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Salmo g.]
Doctor Rick Offline
Free Prostate Exams

Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 1566
Loc: Sequim
A few comments, hope they are fun.

I am new to the list and new to steelhead fishing with flies, although I fly fished when I was a kid in the 60's and didn't know any better. All my gear got stolen, then I discovered girls and cars, and hey, it was the 60's. I do remember most of them, though. 8^)

I mostly mix jigs with bobbers, or drift in some variation. I have been tying my own jigs and have just recently taken a real honest class in tying flies. Very cool. First 8 weight here we come.

BrianL said:
"Fly rods are used for all kinds of things. Bob uses one to soak eggs under the boat for Kasilof Silvers. Others toss mono on the reel and drift-fish with them. Some put on dink floats and fish 1/4oz jigs. You could probably herd cats with one too.

Comment: I am amazed at how gear and fly terminal presentations have converged over the last 30 years. I think it is actually good for fishermen as we continue to learn from each other. I probably won't try to heard cats with a fly rod, though. Hard enough with a drift rod.

BrianL also said: "I'm of the opinion that you use the best tool for the job. If I want to fish jigs, it's a gear rod (preferably a centerpin). Ditto for drift fishing. I don't enjoy casting big hunks of lead with a fly rod. Others can call it flyfishing if they want - I'm not going to waste time arguing."

Rick's comment: Works for me. I really like centerpinning, although it takes practice and works better for me in closer waters than far. Man, oh man, I love seeing that bobber drop, especially when I have been paying attention and have the slack out and the line mended and I don't go spastic.


And FleaFlickr02 said:
"At the other extreme, there are those who will argue that the only true fly fishing is done with a floating line and a dry fly that "matches the hatch," fished on a dead drift. This basically describes the early British method, which most agree was not the original method."

Comment: In about 1978 I asked and paid a guy to tie up some flies that resembled eggs with a little lead wrap so I could put them on 2-4# mono line and drift them in some pockets in some small streams up on the West Slope Rainier. He told me when I picked them up, "These aren't real flies, you know. This isn't fly fishing." I whacked 'em and neither I or the fish knew the difference.

I think he must have been an even older than me old school "match the hatch" kinda guy. So now Glo bugs are de riguer and drifters use yarnies. Go figure. I love it all.

And then FleaFlickr02 said:
"One school of thought (see Wikipedia) states that the origins of fly fishing lie in Macedonia, where an elite group of fishermen are said to have cast chunks of red wool and a couple of non-descript cock feathers tied to a hook into small streams, using a 6-foot rod and a 6-foot length of line. This "fly," by modern definitions, would be classified as an attractor pattern, and the concept of this being the original method of fly fishing seems to suggest that the most pure (if that is defined by originality) forms of fly fishing bear more similarity to fishing yarn flies and beads on a dead drift for steelhead, which is a relatively young practice, than the traditional British methods."

Rick adds: I am that Macedonian guy of the non elite version. Trying non conventional things is a major part of my fun in fishing. I used to look judgmentally at guys using rods missing eyes, and having mono on fly rods, and fly line on casting rods, and all kinds of goofy stuff, UNTIL I watched what they were doing and realized they were usually out-fishing me. They were usually local and knew what worked right there and then, and didn't know or care what they "should" be doing. I was the clueless one.

I am definitely going to try chunks of red wool and non descript cock feathers very soon.

Tight lines and good spirits, folks.

PS I hope Twitch posts some instructions soon for the "Twitchy Shrimp." what a beautiful piece of work.

Top
#572815 - 01/15/10 12:47 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Doctor Rick]
Castingpearls Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 1257
Loc: The Rock
My favorite winter steel pattern:

Top
#572843 - 01/15/10 02:09 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Castingpearls]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Wow! That's a lot more effort than I put into my yarnies. I dig it. The feathers off the back give it a crawfish kinda look... What does that thing swim like? And what kind of hook is it tied on - Octopus?

Top
#572857 - 01/15/10 02:31 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Castingpearls Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 1257
Loc: The Rock
That feather does 2 things. It represents the claws of a small sandshrimp and gives it just the right bouyancy to act as a "wing". The profile is just about exactly as it is in the picture.

I must admit that I drift fish this fly but I am sure it could be setup as a nymph presentation or something.

Top
#572896 - 01/15/10 03:37 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Castingpearls]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
No issues with drifting flies here - they can be downright deadly drifted on conventional gear. It could definitely be nymphed from a fly rod. You may spot me doing just that if it ever quits raining long enough to give us a chance to fish. This is getting ridiculous!

Anyway, that's a pretty cool take on a yarn fly.

Top
#573002 - 01/15/10 08:44 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: SkykomishSunrise]
Superfishial Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: SkykomishSunrise
1. What is the one fly you would carry with you for winter steelhead, if you could carry no others, in the following situations:

Answer: My own version of Silvey's tandem tube fly in either pink or purple.


Same here in black

Top
#581322 - 02/14/10 08:28 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Salmo g.]
Doctor Rick Offline
Free Prostate Exams

Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 1566
Loc: Sequim
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Regarding what fly fishing is contrasted to spin/bait fishing can be fun. On average, fly fishing enhances the prospects of catching trout and reduces the chance of catching a steelhead. If the method involves split shot or a slinky, it isn't fly fishing. In this modern age of so many alternatives, the only way to be certain one is fly fishing is to fish a rod made of split cane, a fly reel made in England, a silk line, gut leader, and flies tied with natural materials only. Falling anywhere short of that is to risk being labeled a bait slinger by somebody. And if that matters, one has problems of a different sort.

Sg
beer

Top
#583650 - 02/23/10 10:06 PM Re: Favorite Winter Steelhead Pattern [Re: Doctor Rick]
JDarr Offline
President- Oregon 20 Club

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 787


It doesn't matter if you swing it, nymph it, or stuff it in an engine....you can't stop the "Sparkplug"

JD
_________________________
Cheese, Trees, and Ocean Breeze....

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
3Gonads, herm
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (steely slammer), 1107 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13520
eyeFISH 12766
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63773 Topics
645292 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |