Or not.

Dow ends above 11,000 for first time in 18 months

I seem to remember several crystal ball gurus who about a year ago were telling us the market upturn was a temporary glitch and that we could look a for a DJIA of 5,000 or less within a year. Want to revist those predictions?

While I appreciate your ability to see the glass half full Dave I would caution you on trumpeting a DJIA number of 11,000 as economic success.

If the Dow is nothing more than a number to you then yes, things look positive. The problem is that once you peel back a layer or two you begin to see that there are major problems afoot.

Companies increase earnings during a depression via layoffs, forced productivity increases, quatitative easing, and stimulus. With an unemployment rate of near 22% you have less consumers to sell to. As this persists it is only a matter of time before things fall into reality.

That means that the stock market is overpriced. Much in the same way the housing market was overpriced. Sovereign debt sales are putting pressure on bond yields. The economists I have been reading are predicting the 10yr Treasury note to be up to 5% withing 8-9 months. Those events will bring the housing market to a screaching halt.

It's hard to declare recovery and jump up and down about a 11,000 DOW when 92% of small business owners say they see no recovery.

Ahhh KK,........always here to reduce a complex issue into a petty partisan quabble.

We have been in depression for months. The Federal Reserve has floated the whole monetary system with our money. In any other time in history there would have been a run on the banking ind. Averting a disaster deceptively by dumping worthless paper of unbacked funds is only a mirage....... for you to run toward. Be very careful. Unstable world economic conditions will plummit the market sooner or later. It's a given. Look at Gas prices recently....Oil commodities brokers are making sure they get theirs first before the day of reckoning.

And I tend to be an optimist.

Dow 6000 before 11,050?

Wrong Moon Bat,...........it's a partisan issue because your first response was to paint it as such, as evidenced in your self-contradictory second post.



I would love to see the economy recover,......it would do wonders for many of us out here in the real world. The problem is that kicking the can down the road isn't going to solve a damn thing,...... cept maybe delaying the problem till the next election. Which is I'm sure all you give a flying fugazee about,.........Party before country? America Hater?

Someone who gets it.

Earmarks = Strawman

They don't change the amount of appropriations one cent since the amount of appropriations has already been decided on.

Should the congress pass on earmarking money into a bill the funds are passed to the executive branch to spend as they see fit.

I wouldn't expect either party to do anything about the problem.

The Dems will spend and borrow more money to get out of debt,.....brilliant.

The Repugs will talk about spending and cuts and spend like drunken sailors once in office.

We are totally fugged.

Wall Street is whispering "here sucker sucker" Welcome to the new KLEPTOCRACY.

My 401k is invested offshore and in bonds, and my cash is staying in the mason jar.

Might want to take some of that cash and invest it in something a little more tangible, like gold or silver.

Andrew Macguire, who recently went public when the CFTC opted to drop his testimony about overt manipulations by JPMorgan in the gold and silver markets, recently explained how the market has been papered over.

There is no way physical holders can deliver on even a fraction of paper contracts. Leverage is through the roof. SHTF in that market soon to come.

No because if the S does HTF then gold and silver will be the only thing worth anything since paper currencies will be rendered worthless.

It's been money for 5,000 years, and steadily increased in value over that time. Although in your infinite wisdom it too will be worthless if worse does really come to worse.

Up nearly 400% in ten years,......yep,.....that's one terrible investment.



Glad you're not my financial planner.

I wasn't trying to say anything about what 11,000 means. Just pointing out how far wrong the earlier prognosticators were when they predicted a Dow of 6,000 by the end of 2009.

Will it go up and down in the future? Of course, that's what it does. Do any of you know by how much and when? Of course not.

Hey Dimbulb.

If you had any sense of reading comprehension you would see where I stated that former trader Andrew Macguire has gone public about the market being papered over.

Only a fool would buy a paper contract with an expectation of delivery. What do you think happens to the price per ounce when all those paper holders demand delivery? I don't have time to teach an econ lesson but I think you're smart enough to figure that one out.

Got out of the market in June 2008. Got back in last September, but I also invested in copper, lead, brass, powder, primers, and chickens, so I'm hedging both sides. Call before you come over, and bring some gold if any of you gatherers need some eggs, While you are at it, gathering, bring a few bags of Layena or Flock Raiser.

Yeah, but do you have the expertise?

Hankster,
It's been a rough few weeks for me. Been trying to pencil out a few ways to get some extra scratch. I'm a lefty, and played ball with Jacoby Ellsbury. Kneecaps are right at the bottom of the zone... Nothin' against KK, but right now, if I could club something for $$, I'm all in...

Isn't there a "You're full of beans." line that goes in here somewhere?

So, when the market hit it's all time high with Bush in office, we can say it was because of him?

I guess the reorganization (getting their profit margins back on track, cutting expenses, being smart) of corporations and businesses during the past 18 months had nothing to do with it. Wow, next you'll say that if we have a good coho season..............it's because of Gregoire. Give credit where it's due, Obama had nothing to do with the market bouncing back...........it did because of free market choices/adjustments and the stock market ALWAYS comes back.

By the way, before all you Obama supporters start ripping on me....I've been a financial advisor for 30 years. When the Dow started to slip in '08 I told nearly all of my clients to hold or make slight adjustments. They did, they're fine. Those I told to make bigger adjustments needed their money within 2 years.

Snake

Snake: You and I are in agreement. The market moves based on many factors. If we give Bush credit for the high, we have to give him credit for the crash as well. Neither are reasonable assumptions. My point was, the market didn’t crash because we elected Obama- as many of the RWWJs here so direly predicted. Just wanted to remind those who were saying check back in a year when the market is 5,000 that they were, as usual, full of crap.

I never made any such prediction, or even anything close to it.

Parker made the 6K prediction.

Do they have any dementia specialists where you work, Hank?

I leave the predictions up to people who know their ass from a hole in the ground.

When it comes to the economy, that's nobody.

Enough people make fools of themselves predicting where the economy will be in 1/3/5 years that I see no need to join them.

Pretty sure KKKevin Lund made similar dire predictions.

You know, my old man worked in the White House during Nixon, I've got all kinds of goodies in the garage. WH letterheads, envelopes, phones... phones with numbers, and a red number, that I was told to never, ever call ... lots of Christmas family photos of Dick and fam... maybe even some campaign memorabilia

Believe it, Hank...............nobody knows.

Go ahead..........ask the heads of the big brokerages, the big banks, the Fed themselves to predict where the stock market will be in 5 years. Not one of them will do it, or can do it.

The economy is like the weather. The guys with big brains can see what's just around the corner most of the time, but they don't seem very good at long-term predictions because of the complexity of the system.

I agree with the first sentence.
Check the graph from 1981 to 1991....worst performing sector you could own.
I'm just sayin....

Like any other investment you have to be on your toes. Look at US interest rates for the time period you pointed out and you will see why the price of gold crashed. For a better picture look at the graph from 1968 to 2010.

Compare that with interest rates today and forward comments by the master's of the universe who decide what those interest rates should be.

At some point in time the Fed will have to raise interest rates to save the dollar. Although they risk bringing the economy to a halt in doing so. They've effectively painted themselves into a corner.

Gave up trying to read all of this.
Are the RWWJ's whining because when GW was elected the dow plunged and when Obama get's in it starts to skyrocket?

The market may be due for a correction but stocks are still under valued as the GW banking crisis drove them into the ground. Another thing driving the market up is the recent change to short selling rules. Under GW you were seeing days where more shares of a stock were bought or sold than existed which should be impossible. Some companies were being driven into bankruptcy because the shares would be short sold into nothingness. You'd see companies come out with quarterly/annual earnings that smashed estimates only to watch the stock plummet. Who wouldn't sit on the side lines when the fox is guarding the hen house which was typical Bushism. As for Gold i'd say it's way over valued and only staying where it's at while the dollar is down and the dollar is down because we want it to be for now.

[quote=stlhead]Gave up trying to read all of this.
Are the RWWJ's whining because when GW was elected the dow plunged and when Obama get's in it starts to skyrocket?

Skyrocket? It is trending up, but skyrocket.

I especially like the part where you say the stock market is still under valued yet in another thread advocate that "artificial" segments of the economy like "real estate and mega yachts go bye bye."

Yup they would be severely hurt if there weren't tax breaks which all of us tax payers end up covering. Since "no deductions" ain't going to happen the market is undervalued IMO.

Skyrocket? look at a three month chart of the DJIA or NDX.

It's a pretty damn good trend

2009 DJIA opened Jan 01 at 8,772.75, Opened Nov 04 2008 Election Day at 9,323.89, Opened Inauguration Day at 8,279.63
Mar 09 Falls 79.89 to close at 6,547.05, down 53.78% from the all time high on Oct 9, 2007, down 25.37% from the 2009 open
OW! OW! OW!
Mar 23 Rises 497.48 to close at 7,775.48, up 6.84%, fifth largest point gain in history
Jun 01 Rises 221.11 to close at 8,721.44, up 33% since this year's low on Mar 09
Jul 23 Rises 188.03 to close at 9,069.29, highest close this year and the highest close since Nov 05, 2008
Oct 14 Rises 144.80 to close at 10,005.86, highest close this year and first close above 10,000 since Oct 03, 2008
2010 DJIA Opened Jan 01 at 10,430.69, up 18.9% from the open on Jan 01. 2009
Apr 04 Rises 8.62 to close at 11,005.97, first close above 11,000 since Sep 26, 2008

Can we lay off the facts and figures, and topic at hand, and get back to pure partisan bickering again?

I mean, isnt THAT how we resolve everything?

Picking on the GOP is like picking on a Coug. It goes in streaks.

The market is definately undervalued, unless its overvalued, none of which seems to matter,once fear and greed kick in.

I know I bought Ford stock at $1.75 a share. I think it was undervalued.

PE ratio on google hit 100 today, assuming I heard correctly.

A little rich.

BTW, the general consensus for the stock market graph to look like a square root sign. Some folks, think its going sideways for a long time to come. This is earnings week. Alcoa didnt make it. Intel did I think.

Just about anyday you want, CNBC will trott out a Bear and he will tell you why the market is going back down. Mostly cause he wants it to. Just wait till ford has a bad quarter. Back down to 8 bucks and youll have lost 3 dollars plus the 10 you paid to buy it. Hope you bought a thousand shares dave. Remember, pigs get slaughtered. Sell now. One recall away from 8.
Seriously, if they miss their qtr, by a penny per share, it will tumble.

While you watch, listen for any democrat that comes on about taxes. They all say the same thing. Stock market and the economy went way up during Clintons tax increase. It was preplanned of course. Al Gore invented the internet and Clinton had a bowl movement and they named it Bill Gates. People forget the tech boom and the crash in 99.

Bush didnt deserve credit for the economy cause he didnt make the dam home loans to a bunch of dead beats in the first place. Not smart enough. All the mortgage back securities? Lots of Cities, lost out on that stuff. The whole thing was a house of cards. People were warned and they did not listen. They had a show about one guy who predicted the whole thing. He presented to Lehman or someone who told him to mind his own business. Guys who invented the securities also lost their jobs. Math wizards.

That tears it, the nomination for Supreme court is going in the trash.

Such a troll.

Your up early...

running out of stray dogs yet?

Lead Eater must have a degree in finance or economics or something to be so tuned in to the finer points of how the economy performs.



Or not.


Whichever.

Massive capitulaiton in the market today as it saw intraday lows close to 1000 points to the downside on the DJIA. Conveinantly 1.5 points away from shutting down trading for the day. That is before the FOMC or Plunge Protection Team stepped in to stop the selling.

CNBS printed a laughable story that attributed the sell off to "erroneous trades". One in particular where a Citi trader mistakenly placed an order for Proctor & Gamble stock and mistakenly typed in a "b" for billion instead of a "m" for million for unit volume "I'll take two thousand three hundred and forty seven shares please"

I guess fat fingers can trigger a total market collapse. That or a cat running across the keyboard. I had a trader tell me today that he examined the 1 second data and the DOW drop preceeded the P&G drop, not the other way around. It's likely heavy manipulaiton is a foot.

Curb the fear, hype the recovery, nothing to see here folks.

The sovereign debt crisis is only in it's infancy starting with Greece. Many other countries to follow. Gold acting like money instead of a commodity. Moment of silence for the death of the Euro.

The market will look rosy again once the hedge scum are done shorting and decide to take a long position.

US debt to GDP in the same range as Greece.

Is the market even real anymore???

i saw that while eating some lunch today
i thought something was broke with the ticker count but it certainly caught my attention
some folks are making money and some are losing but i wouldn't touch that gig with your money
at least oil came down a bit

wonder what kinda show tomorrow will bring being a friday and in may?

BUY...BUY....BUY
or is it
BYE, BYE, BYE? Geez, this is confusing.

Just need a little more stimuli(e)......break out the money pump.

damn! wrong again.....you make a note of that, KK?

Cool Trillion oughta do 'er.....

Well the difference between us and Greece Hank is that we have the authority to print money into infinity. How all that turns out remains to be seen.

Whats more interesting to me is how gold is acting like money as opposed to commodity right now.

More over,....people should be up in arms about another unappropiated fleecing of the tax payers to fund the Euro bailout via the IMF and Federal Resevre currency swaps.

Bernie Sanders recently sold out on the Audit the Fed amendment,......what else would you expect from a socialist?? Vitter of Louisiana offered a side-by-side amendment that was indentical to the Paul-Grayson amendment passed by the House. It was defeated today by a 37-62 vote. Sanders' watered down amendment flew through with a unanimous vote so as to provide political cover.

Want to know which of your senators are bought and paid for by the mega banks? Scroll through the list of the nay votes on the Vitter amendment and you will have a definitive answer.

Again more mis-information from our Nazi Republican Friends. They have the gall to complain about social security and how it needs to be invested in the stock market and how we're going to go broke. Reagan and Bush are the most irresponsible fiscal leaders of all time.

The US doesn't even compare to Greece:

Debt GDP by Nation

More Doom and Gloom from the Right Wing Nazis.

Nazi's? Twice? Pull your head out.
The fiscal damages of the present regime are far from totaled, and if that doesn't bother you, you're not paying attention.
Or perhaps you're in debt up to your eyeballs.... because you're worth it? If so, you have lots of company...all of whom think that their irresponsibility should be my problem.

Little saying about that.....

What makes you think that piss poor planning on your part constitutes a crisis on mine?

With you wingnuts... WHY is it ALWAYS "this is gonna happen" or "this will happen if?"

Fer chrissfukkinsake... we already KNOW what happens when corporatist, right-wing economic policies are utilized.

This country goes right down the fukkin' sh!tter.

Wise up for once!

OK Quatre Sel, I understand you are a dyed-in-the-wool Liberace but try to keep up with me here.

It is truly ironic that you use the term "corporatism". In the context you've used it here it is actually an indictment on your own political philosophy.

Corporatism is described as tripartism involving negotiations between business groups, labor unions, and state interests to set economic policy using collective identities. Better described as collusion between corporate interests and the state concerning economic policy. When comparing this definition with fascism it becomes easy to draw similarities between the two. Italian facsists directly involved corporatism. Fascist governments also directly controlled private property (further state intervention/control) and pursued economic policies to strengthen the state as opposed to private enterprise.

If one were to gauge left vs. right on the political spectrum the easiest way to do so would be to gauge it based on the level, or scope and size, of government and government intervention into the private marketplace,....i.e. Anarchy (no gov't) on the far right and Communism (total gov't) on the far left.

So,.....the corporatist policies enacted by administrations for decades in this country that have led to "this country going right down the fukkin' shtter" are actually policies that would be considered "leftist",.........no matter what letter happened to appear behind the policy maker's name.

Perhaps it's time you took the blinders off and welcomed yourself to reality.

Sorry for this, but, gotta call the grammar police and LOL @ "died-in-the-wool". Sounds like something that Ferndale dude from that other thread might be into.

Fixed that for ya Captain Grammar.

That was pretty funny though

I admire your consistency

I'm on a roll

Sometimes the brain moves faster than the fingers.

It simply boils down to fear, ignorance and hatred versus hope, knowledge and imagination.

Or to put it in terms the former can grasp:

Hide in yer bunkers! The commies are coming fer the wimminfolk!

VS

Maybe if we act like reasonable adults, we don't have to drop napalm on each other.

The partisan quabbling here is a little sickening. It's actually an accurate reflection of what is happening in this nation today.

"It's unprofessional to confuse loyalty with integrity." - A very true and relevant statement.

What has either party actually done for anyone here? What purpose is served by debating the shortfalls and negligence of either party? They're both guilty in my mind.

I mean, I know this petty $hit is the whole damn world to some you but c'mon,.....really?

KK, some of your statements about conservatives looking backwards are true,.......I will give you that. Although statements made in this thread about the current economic situation are not references to what "might" happen and "what if" scenarios. There IS a sovereign debt crisis on the horizon. There ARE problems with our budget deficit here at home. If there were not then why are central banks around the world now bailing out whole countries via monetization? The proof is in the pudding. If some of you wish to bury your head in the sand and ignore the problem be my guest, but there is no denying the current reality.

IMO it's being denied in much the same way conservatives denied, and still deny, the fact that US occupation and intervention in middle east countries is the number one driver behind radical islam. Now the current administration has picked up the neoconservative foreign policy ball and ran with it. Pathetic.

Here we have two self-indentified groups who are so married to their idealology that they cannot see the forest for the trees. In the mean time the country suffers.

What an utter disappointment.

Then why don't you STFU?

I see you're one to follow your own advice.

WWRPD?

If that means what I think it does it's unfortunate because we will probably never know.

Dow finished today at 9,733. It might be time for Barry to wave his wand and sprinkle some magic fairy dust on the market to help us again.