That's right, boys! 47% of our populace pay ZERO income tax for 2009.....FUK'N ZERO!!

Sounds like 53% of us carry the load. Hell we should pay more, so more could ride for nothing.

You deadbeats can follow your own dream.....but do it on your own damn nickel, OK?

And I'll betcha some of that 47% makes more annually than I do.

Probably do Harley. I had freind with 3 kids complaining about how much taxes were. He was a teacher and from what I could calculate he probably was qualifying for the tax credit. But hey, why let facts get in the way. We all pay way to much and the welfare queens and democrats are the reason. Right.

The MSNBC story stated that 73% of the TOTAL income tax collected by the fed was paid by those households who make over roughly $350,000 a year.......

Yeah, the rich skirt their taxes alright

I wanna pay taxes like Oprah does.

my goal is to pay a million in taxes

Not exactly free (but why bother with details and pesky facts), it turns out they in fact do pay:

* Payroll taxes on their wages (trust me, I pay these on my employees)
* Social Security
* Medicare

I'm not here to defend or attack our tax system, I'm here to point out the "Ride for FREE" message is a nice sound-bite, except for the fact that its wrong.

Well I just paid a ton, hope that helps someone get something real nice.

Wanna be outraged? Check what the top 25% in income corporations in American pay in taxes.

Collect on them, and you'd see that the income taxes paid by individuals are carrying the weight for the whole country, while hundreds of billions of dollars go untaxed...

'Course, that's the American way.

Fish on...

Todd

If we don't tax them they move operations to other countries anyway. I work for an American manufacture and there is in no tax relief for us, nor incentive to keep operations in the US, but I guess that is only for the top 25%. The way it stands right now, we are actually encouraged to take operations overseas when you look at the overhead involved in being a US manufacture.


Why would a flat tax not work?

"The American way is if we tax them, they move more operations to other countries and we lose more jobs that pay the current taxes. "

yeah but then we should treat them like foreign entities doing bus in the US and not as US corps....or traitors. Whichever.

I pay a ton all year long and then again at year end. If you do things the way you are supposed to...live within your means and don't splurge then you don't qualify for breaks.

Here's how the rich pay less than you or I. Say I own 1 million shares of a stock that pays a dollar dividend every year. That's $1 million a year taxed at 15% less all of the loop holes for yachts, vacation homes, etc and I'm getting a fat refund. Replace the above with stock options cashed in after a year....long term gain = 15%. Why do you think CEO's are being so kind in forgoing their bonuses during these "tough times"? Look at the annual report. They are getting more stock options. Better for tax purposes and, the stock price being down at the moment, even more lucrative in the long run.

"Why would a flat tax not work?"

I'm for it but it needs to be no deductions and that means all of these artificially propped up industries go bye bye like real estate, mega yachts, etc.

"I "avoid" taxes on income of 22.5K annually for contributions to my 401K."

Of course. Only don't count on it being that much of a break given GW's debt. It may turn out it was better to pay the current tax rate.

Hey Aunty,

What's changed in your tax rate for 2009 as opposed to 2008?

What new Federal taxes are you paying now that you weren't before?

Saying that 47% of American citizens are freeloaders is nothing but a right-wing talking point spouted by the dupes of corporate America... who clearly have no understanding whatsoever of how the tax system in this country works.

A flat tax with no deductions is another absolutely BAD idea for the average middle-class American family. WHY should everybody pay the same rate when we don't all use the Commons equally?

If we had a flat tax... you wouldn't have ANY deductions Chuck... no mortgage interest, medical, sales, excise and property taxes... nuthin'!

Take the extra thousand and put it in your 401(k) or Traditional IRA instead.

Flat tax no deductions applies to corp america as well. A simple percentage of income which includes interest, capital gains, etc. it would also save billions via the IRS. Deductions are taken when paid just like on a paycheck. No other income at year end no need to file. We'd end up paying a lot less taxes IMO. A consumption tax tends to create black markets.

What are "the Commons"?

You know Marz,........it's that big open area we all used to eat lunch at in high school

What about all of the taxes paid by the employees of said corporations, if they take more money from the corps then we get lower wages and less taxes collected.

Wouldn't that mean poor people should pay a [censored] load and rich people very little based on their use of the commons?

That was what I was thinking but I was trying to make sure I understood what was being said correctly (since that seems to make very little sense).

"take more money from the corps"

Take? You mean reward the corps less don't you? Show me a corporation that bottom line is paying at the corporate tax rate.

That second paragraph wasn't addressed to you Aunty, it was a general comment to those who think that those 47% are freeloaders.

The Commons.

The commons were traditionally defined as the elements of the environment - forests, atmosphere, fisheries or grazing land - that we all share. These are the tangible and intangible aspects of the environment that no-one owns but everybody enjoys. There are other conceptions of the commons. Today, the commons need to be understood within the cultural sphere as well. The commons within this sphere include literature, music, performing arts, visual arts, design, film, video, television, radio, community arts and sites of heritage. The commons can also include ‘public goods’ such as public space, public education, health and the infrastructure that allows our society to function (such as electricity or water delivery systems). There also exists the ‘life commons’ – the human genome that makes us a unique species. Though a central government may ‘manage’ these, realistically we have inherited them and any governing body only holds them in trust for the public as well as future generations. The commons can also include the areas of human relationships such as the need for safety, trust, cooperation, shared intellect and so on. These are aspects of culture that our society shares and promotes a more functioning community.

My earlier point being that people with more money tend to use more of the things included within "The Commons" and therefore should pay more in taxes.

A progressive system of taxation is the most fair, IMO and I'm in good company with other prominent people throughout American history that share this view.

If we closed a few loopholes and actually enforced the corporate tax laws we have now... we could get our national debt back under control and we wouldn't need to raise taxes on any private citizens, even rich ones.

That is what I was thinking but (maybe I am wrong) don't those that have the least use the commons the most (as said above)? Public Schools, Libraries, Health Systems, etc?

That is why it would seem a flat tax would be a better solution, those that have little pay little, etc.

Sure middle class families would miss out on some deductions but so would those that have the financial power to negate almost all of their taxes through various channels of legal sidestepping.

Maybe not, but that's how it looks to me.

I believe a corporation is actually considered an individual in the eyes of finance isnt it?

Tell me 'bout the rabbits, George.

I like Steinbeck.

I like how you managed to use "Corporations" and "responsibilities" in the same sentence, KK. That, in and of itself, is impressive writing. Anyone who can take that a step further and answer your question honestly, without using a dollar sign somewhere in the equation, would be worthy of a Pulitzer Prize.

Money may not buy happiness (boy, is that a questionable cliche), but it sure can buy just about anything else, including, tragically, votes in Congress. Corporations have plenty of money. Should they hit a bump in the road, their friends in Washington will have plenty to lend to ensure that every executive gets his Christmas bonus (or stock options).

On the topic of the bailouts, I knew the American Way had officially died when I heard the phrase "too big to fail" being used as the justification for bailing out giant corporations. Last time, it took the Carnegies and Rockefellers owning virtually the whole country to get Congress to finally put a stop to corporate domination. What will it take this time around? Pretty scary to think we aren't there yet, and sad to see that we didn't learn anything the first time around.

Maybe they are not freeloaders, they just have acquired enough money and power to manipulate the system to maximize gain...

even then, is it ethical? Is it fair? is it right?

As much as people complain about tax increases on the rich being a penalty for success, should sidestepping taxes like that be condoned?

Should we reward cheating and getting away with it?

A baseball player that used steroids to hit home runs becomes a pariah and a company that manipulates the system for monetary gain is championed... thank god we have Kate Gosslin to distract us.

Re: individuals/responosibilities -- I'm pretty sure KK was referencing the (imho brain-dead) recent Supreme Court decision allowing them to fund campaigns.

Re: Too Big To Fail -- Anyone considered using the Justice Department/Anti-Trust statutes against this problem? I mean I'm a "Who is John Galt" dude, but I believe TBTF is a big issue, wonder how else to tackle?

Outstanding! Thanks for the much needed chuckle on an otherwise rough day.

When I collect sales tax, it is not my money...I pay no taxes on it as income, and I hold it in my business accounts until it becomes payable...quarterly, on my business.

It's the taxing entity's money from the get go...I just hold onto it until they want it from me.

It NEVER goes on the books as my money...so paying it is not really "paying" it...it's just giving it to the owner.

Kinda like if I held a fishing rod for you that you lent to KK...he gave it to me to give to you when I see you next. It's never mine, it's yours the whole time, and I just have it on my rack until I see you next.

Fish on...

Todd

Slab Happy is OK with corporations paying no Income taxes I'm sure.

Unless of course that corporation happens to be a minority family of 5 with 3 small children making less than $40,000 a year...

The "ride for free" comment is not very explainatory, but neither is it totally inaccurate. What it says is that if you don't pay federal taxes, and you still use federally paid for amenities (which is impossible to NOT use), then you are using something you contributed zero dollars towards. You may, in fact, have been paid to create the amenity, but paid nothing for it by years end.......hence, free ride.

My situation is much more traditional....we both work, pay taxes, work pay taxes,.......end of year.....may get a portion back, or may pay an additional amount in.....this year I'm writing a check. We own nothing fancy...have one car and one truck (which today turned 200,000 miles), a small home with a modest mortage.....NO debts owed on credit cards.....living a life that most folks today would consider below their worthiness.

I work with a guy...nice guy....who has 3 kids and one on the way, two cars and a truck, lives in one of the parents' rentals, single income family......will get all he paid in returned, with an additional amount thrown in. So who's supporting this nice family?.....You and I (the ones who pay in, that is)

Different problem...same solution...

Publicly funded campaigns.

Fish on...

Todd

Hank just went Rory Bellows on us.

Sorry Hank...........that was uncalled for.

I'd go dig up some of his posts, but they weren't worth reading even then.

Damn, Hank, just let the corner throw in the towel before this one is a career ender.

We hire a ton of folks out of CA, and a major bargaining point is that even if I pay them the same salary here as they get currently in CA, it's like getting a 10% raise if they come up to WA on the income tax savings.

So you can thank me for taking a bunch of skilled folks out of your tax base

The only time you "pay" sales tax is when you buy something...you do not pay sales tax when you sell something, as it was never your money to begin with.

Fish on...

Todd