Basically I have heard many people say that hatchery steelhead do not co-mingle with native fish. Maybe not many here, as this is a fairly educated forum. The point of this question and video is how often does this happen? We found this fish and from what we could tell it had been in the system for quite a while, it had spawned out I presume and may have been on its way to being a kelt.

Whats everyones idea on this fish? Was it spawning and eating eggs of upstream fish?

By the way, the fish didn't cook up nice from what I heard.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tripleduboutdoors?feature=mhum

I can't remember the last time someone said that hatchery fish don't mingle with wild fish. I assume mingle means to spawn, which in this case that is a load of B.S. Of course hatchery fish spawn with wild fish! Anyone who thinks other wise needs a swift kick in the pants.

As far as my knowledge goes, there is no absolute statistic on hatchery-wild influence. It varies by river and by year. Idaho Fish and Game is conducting an extensive project on the influence of hatchery fish on wild genetics and ultimately the possibility of hatchery fish keeping "wild" populations afloat. This project is being done on spring chinook though, not steelhead. I'll wager that WA and OR have done a similar project in the past or are conducting one now through other projects.

There is almost no data on hatchery influence into Idaho steams with steelhead. I assume it is probably the same with WA and OR. Current data from one system in Idaho shows that in a stream considered 100% wild and native with no history of non-native steelhead introductions, there is about a 3-5% composition of adult hatchery fish per year attempting to spawn.

Who said they don't mingle? I don't recall anyone saying that.

What HAS been said over and over is that the resulting offspring do not return as adults in any significant numbers, and that's a problem because a viable wild parent has been removed from the pool by mingling with a hatchery fish.

There's a run in the lower river that was started with hatchery, discontinued after a couple of years in the 70's and is still there producing away. So not sure if I buy this whole theory..

Not to steal the topic, but in the in end would a hatchery fish that spawned with a native really cause a big enough difference in the next generation of steel head for anyone to notice? Im sure with some dna testing you could find out some how but they would technically be a wild fish right? So why not let them just spawn together? IMO this might be a last resort for a native run in many rivers. Im interested in what others have to say

McMAhon and Dan s. I know that they do, I was just stating those who do not believe they are a significant impact need to readjust their view. And some people on "other" forums and such believe all the brats reach their hatchery or get caught. As I was stating uneducated people on the topic.

And Dan S. I presume the reason why the offspring of the mixed stock doesn't return in viable numbers is that they are not truely bred for that system, as we see in so many rivers why hatchery fish fail at making it back in decent numbers. Alot of people are completely unaware, alot of people couldn't tell you the difference between a nate and hatchery othan than finclip and bred in cement pond. Alot of people do not understand much of this, and through my way I made this little video to somewhat educate. I could have done a much better job of explaining it in the video, I was on the spot though and was just upset to realize what that fish was doing.

"Alot of people" does not describe this forum, this forum is well educated for the most part. "Alot of people" describes the other 99% of fishermen out there. I couldn't even grasp the number of actual fishermen who fished for steelhead last year or even salmon, yet I do know it is a whole bunch more than what visits PP or any other forum. And not to say that those people are uneducated, what I will say is a significant portion of people fishing for steelhead do not want to acknowledge a problem with these fish, or simply just don't know about it.

I kind of look at it like having a rottweiler and a greyhound, they can both breed the rottweiler is a certain way.... looks a certain way reacts a certain way and can live and thrive in certain conditions. A greyhound is not going to thrive in the same conditions as a rottweiler in the wild and vice versa.

Most hatchery strains are not the native strain of that given system, on any given system the native fish can vary in appearance, attitude, etc. and are accustomed to living and thriving in certain conditions.

well i understand that part, i just dont think a hatchery fish that bread with a native would produce that off of a fish from a "pure bread" native

I am no biologist, yet I would think that it would be an inferior fish to a degree. And I do not think steelhead have many degrees to give.

A half inferior fish in a system is just not going to do anywhere near as well as something bred for that system. Let the biologists jump in and explain.

This thread is not about hatchery spawners. He wants to promote his videos. Considering all the concern about wild steelhead his other video just promotes targeting those wild fish. Multiply that by the guys who can't handle a fish properly and the guys who will poach the fish, video publishing is not helping the fish at all.

I almost went to bed a happy dude. The thread is about my video, my video is about hatchery spawners. I asked what peoples thoughts on hatchery spawners was, as that was the basis of the video. The discussion was moving along just fine, if you want to discuss the effects of Youtube and Wild Steelhead that is another topic we can check out.

I make videos of fishing, I like fishing, I fish for native fish at times, sometimes I post the fishing videos, I am not a saint, I am not the self proclaimed savior of steelhead, I have ideas like everyone else and if you really want to point out who is ruining steelheading I would blame Al Gore for inventing the internet.

My idea on this fish is that it is a spawned out hatchery fish that was definitely unfit for table fare...YUK!

Whether or not it "mingled" with a wild fish before it was caught is impossible to know. Basically this is the reason the state has now stopped planting hatchery fish on rivers that do not have collection facilities (traps), to reduce the possibility of hatchery fish "mingling" with wild fish.

I might add that these spawners are typically ravenous and kamikazees; I remember catching the same hatchery spawner 4 times in a single day in the tailout at Cottonwood.

Ike

At this point the fish has already spawned so the damage has already been done. Removing it from the system is not accomplishing anything.

As far as summer runs go....they don't spawn until Nov/Dec and even though they might have a little color, they stil eat as good or better than most winter fish you will catch in Dec/Jan.

Ike

bread - made with flour and water
bred - breeding/producing offspring


If we are discussing Chambers Creek hatchery steelhead spawning with native/wild winter steelhead, there is no next generation.


Bad idea. You have alot to learn here bro, luckily you came to the right place.

Ike

fixed it .

So are you saying Chambers Creek strain mixed with nates produces no offspring? Or very bad offspring? It just sounds like you are trying to say that those fish are sterile.

Big Jim,

When Chambers Creek hatchery steelhead spawn in the wild, either with themselves or mixing with wild steelhead, the resulting offspring lack sufficient fitness to survive and return as a future generation of adult fish. The number of survivors that return is statistically zero. Is that clear enough? That's why it's a bad thing when a hatchery steelhead spawns with a wild one. It removes the reproductive potential of that wild fish from the spawning population.

Sg

See I always thought the resulting offspring were basically inferior and did bad. I always thought that was the issue, yet instead what you are saying sounds much worse. You learn something new everyday I guess.

If we are discussing Chambers Creek hatchery steelhead spawning with native/wild winter steelhead, there is no next generation.


Bad idea. You have alot to learn here bro, luckily you came to the right place.

Ike [/quote]

well thats why i asked, i want to figure out all the facts on thiss. Ive thought about this a lot.

No, actually you are spot on there BJ....the resulting offspring are inferior and they do very bad.

Fear_no_fish, a wise man once told me there is no such thing as a bad question. Fish knowledge is relative; I may know slightly more than you, but I don't know jackshiat compared to the likes of Salmo g., Smalma, and of course, Todd....just to name a few.

You would be hard pressed to find another place where nearly any/all of your fish questions can be answered by such a diverse group of knowledgeable fisher people. Welcome aboard dude....and fire away.

Ike