http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/19/christine-odonnell-church-and-state_n_767910.html

BAHAHAHAHAA!!

Typical teabagger. What a nutjob. How ANYONE this stupid can get nominated blows my mind.

But she is correct, there is no "seperation of church and state" in the first amendment of the US constitution. The first amendment prohibits the ESTABLISHMENT of religion and Guarantees the free right to religion.

How can anyone so stupid as to not realize this be allowed to vote?

From the 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion."

Is that clear enough for you? The reason the law was written was because the Church of England ruled the roost and the forefathers didn't want to see the same thing happen here. They wanted a clear separation of government and religion.

The 2nd amendment doesn't specifically say you can keep and bear AK-47s and fully automatic machine guns. It's just assumed that's what it says, because IT'S WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION.


"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion."

No.

That's not clear enough for him.

He's going to defend the same idiot that said that scientists are growing mice with human brains because the words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution even though the intent is clear.

Election time can be fun as we get to see people go down in flames, as victims of their own stupidity.

I'd still let her blow me.

That's your, along with many others misinterpritation of the first amendment. Had the constitution wanted a wall seperating church and state, there would be no mention of God in our founding documents, prayer in congress etc.

You are correct in that the founders didn't want a repeat of the mess with the church of England, but they only intended to keep government out of religion, not the other way around. No matter who twists it how they do it, there is no "seperation of church and state" in the US constitution. Ms.O'Donnell is correct, it's not written anywhere in the constitution.

Exactly how many times is God mentioned in the Constitution? How about prayer?

Just wonderin'...

Thank you Justice bait dunker for your explanation of what the writers of the Constitution intended.

I'm glad that you've been around long enough to have spoken to those that wrote it so that you know what their intent was.

This is what the Supreme Court has had to say.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html

I believe that allowing religion and state to mix is what brings us Iranian type governments. No doubt the same craziness would develop here if we let the two merge. Moderates typically lose out to the true believers. How would you like the government to be influenced by the likes of Pat Robertson, David Koresh, Mitt Romney, et al?

Interesting that Dunker doesn't mind wearing his ignorance in public. Unfortunately there's no arguing with visceral knowledge.

DV,

I'm not a Romney fan, but lumping him with Robertson and Koresh does seem over the top.

Sg

"Supreme Court " pfft...what do they know.

I'd like to see O'Donnell and Palin on the same ticket. I bet the debates would smash ratings records.

Politically, he HAS to! He is Mormon. Even the Christians that support him look at him with skepticism.

Now mix in some turkey or chicken processing and I think you would be on the right track. Santeria is a religion, isn't it? A Santeria case on religion and sacrifices made it to the supremes, there in linking them all together. FOR THE WIN!

"God" and "Creator" are mentioned in the appendix of the US Constitution. We both know that the constitution is not the only founding document, so let's not twist things.


@DanS if your not sure what the founders intended, wouldn't the right thing to do is take it literally? The funny thing about the constitution is that it is spelled out very simply so there is no ambiguity or need for interpratation. With few exceptions the groups that need interpratation are usually those trying to pervert or change the constitution.

bd,

No, the right thing to do is to have the justices of the Supreme Court decide what the Constitution says.............because that's what they do.

The 2nd amendment doesn't say individuals have the right to bear arms, but the SC has interpreted the "well-regulated militia" to mean the individual. If you want to go with the simple spelling in the Constitution, then your days of individual firarm ownership are over.

Unless, of course, you want to admit that it wasn't the intent of the Constitution to forbid you, the individual, to bear arms, and you want to continue living with the SC's interpretation of the 2nd amendment, rather than the simple language in the Constitution which never mentions individual firearm ownership.

And now the Constitution has an appendix?




Really?

Constitution appendix = the amendments? But there I go again, interpreting what Bait Dunker means, rather than just taking him literally.

Dan - 'zat good enough for zzzzing?

Sg

Yeah.

That's a 'Zzzzzing' right there.

You're slightly off there Dan,..... depending upon your interpretation

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Militia - Civilians trained as soldiers but not part of a regulated army.

The only reference to a militia is that it is "necessary to the security of a free state". Nothing about the rights of militias or the necessity to belong to a militia to exercise the right.

"The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" seems pretty clear to me.

You're not the only one who says I'm slightly off.

The method for determining what the framers of the constitution meant are really quite simple. Use their actions measured with their words. Re; Dam S post above , When the constitution was enacted and for quite a few years after there we no restrictions on firearm ownership. Some towns restricted carrying firearms inside the city but there was no restriction on ownership. So it is reasonable to assume that the founders meant we could all own firearms, as many and as varied in type as we deemed right for ourselves. Second the separation of church and state issue. There was a church in the halls of congress that was regularly attended by many of the framers on the constitution. Again it would be reasonable to assume that the framers had no issue with this because it was not state sponsored it was created and attended by individuals of their own free will. The problem with SCOTUS opinions as the litmus test for interpretation is political influence. Remember when the constitution was written the intent was not to have political parties because of their influence on the process. That dream only lasted a few months however.

I'll leave that one alone

"A well regulated militia"

They were all old farts with white hair. Well regulated meant lot's of prune juice.

Thanks!

I actually looked up the period definition of militia, circa 1770, a while back. It was loosley worded as any able bodied man of military service age.

Able bodied man, you say?

Well, wimmen shouldn't be sportin' a shootin' iron anyway.

Able bodied being over 5 feet 4 inches tall....

BD, perhaps you need a refresher on U.S. history and our founding fathers. If you think that somewhere in the constitution it says that Christianity belongs in government, you are (thankfully) mistaken. Our founding fathers were deists, not fundamentalist Christians as they are often portrayed by right-wingers. They were too smart and too successful of businessmen to worry about trivial things like religion (specifically Christianity).

Why in the world would non-Christians say that it's OK for Christianity to have a place in a fledgling democracy? They didn't, because they knew it would lead to problems. If you want religion in your government, move to Iran and tell us how it's working out for you.

I provide for you some links for light reading:

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

http://vftonline.org/TestOath/deism.htm

There are a million more. You could spend an entire day reading these things. Actually reading about history could provide you and your teabag buddies some enlightenment rather than acting like you know what people in the 1700s wanted and knew.

Gee, a host of links that are the left wing equivelent of Fox news, and Ann Coulters blogs. You'll have to excuse me if I dismiss them. I wish you had laid off the pot and paid attention in High school Civics class.
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers # of
Founding
Fathers % of
Founding
Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204  
but I suppose we could trade links all night, we will never agree and you'll still be wrong.... Lol

Perhaps the Constitution (or whatever is left of it) doesn't allow for it, but make no mistake, good or bad, there has always been and likely will always be a marriage of Church and State, no matter where you live. Elected and dictatorial officials have seen to that. Have you ever known Congress to let "constitutionality" stand in their way of doing anything? They just amend the parts that would hold them back.

The Constitution is scarcely a shell of what it once was. That's why we need a group of highly specialized attorneys whose sole purpose is to stay abreast of its modern interpretations. The very fact that it is open to interpretation has facilitated the dismissal of all the rights and freedoms we Americans have lost through the years.

"None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular."

"...Because of the rural nature of early America, many in colonial times chose churches based on convenience. Where they went to church regularly may not be a perfect indicator of what faith they considered themselves. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was raised Episcopalian, donated a significant amount of money to building Episcopalian churches, attended a Episcopalian church, and yet is not considered an orthodox Episcopalian by any historian of note. His views would be considered heretical by today's orthodox standards."

FYI, this is not a left-wing conspiracy. Yes, they belonged to some sort of a denomination. If you had read any links I posted for you, you would have understood that while they may have attended church or claimed a denomination, they were NOT religious.

These were smart men and were not so weak-minded as to be swayed by some dude in a robe asking them for their money.

Yes, you can keep quoting the same site over and over, your still wrong. Let's face it, we can both quote links that "prove" we're right, but it's not going to change your mind, my mind or the opinion of any reader.
The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s.

These signers have long inspired deep admiration among both secularists (who appreciate the non-denominational nature of the Declaration) and by traditional religionists (who appreciate the Declaration's recognition of God as the source of the rights enumerated by the document). Lossing's seminal 1848 collection of biographies of the signers of the Declaration of Independence echoed widely held sentiments held then and now that there was divine intent or inspiration behind the Declaration of Independence. Lossing matter-of-factly identified the signers as "instruments of Providence" who have "gone to receive their reward in the Spirit Land."

From: B. J. Lossing, Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George F. Cooledge & Brother: New York (1848) [reprinted in Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, WallBuilder Press: Aledo, Texas (1995)], pages 7-12:

This link even sites sources, but it won't change your mind either.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that they were deists? Why do teabaggers hate America so much for what it was founded on?

Uhhh, maybe because they were not deists? Why is it so hard for you to believe they were Christians? Why do you left wing idiots hate America for what it was founded on, Christianity?

I tend to lean right on most financial issues, left on most social issues, but should a candidate start spouting off about how holy they are, they lose my vote.

Religion is a personal thing, like sexuality. Keep it to yourself. I don't care what you do when you practice either, and I wish you the best at each endeavor, but I really don't need to know about it.

There is an exception to this rule, if you happen to be a hot lesbian, where you are free to share videos and a point by point timeline of your last encounter.

Why do you hate America so much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deists

You did not just site wikipedia as a factual source did you?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! No, I'm not laughing with you......

"perhaps you need a refresher on U.S. history and our founding fathers."

"Why is it so hard for you to understand that they were deists? "

Thomas Jefferson was a deist but he is the only one I am aware of and it is documented in his letters. As a refresher on your history, he basically washed his hands of the constitution after many of his ideas were pushed aside by political bickering. Jefferson was also the first Republican president, a true republican not like the liberal republicans of today. He would not have stood for the federal government inserting itself in states rights issues and would not objected if a sate allowed a Christmas celebration on its capitol grounds.

Prove it. You already referenced the founding documents; so show us where within those documents it states this nation was founded with the intent of worshiping Christ.

Don't let something like facts get in the way of a good argument. There have been SCADS of fact-checking expeditions to see how Wikipedia compares to other sources of information. You might want to read some of those studies before you run your mouth.

Or just return to watching your "Fair and Balanced" news.

I really don't see the problem with teaching creationism or intelligent design in school. It is just that they should never be taught in a science class or be presented as alternative theories...because they are not based on science. They belong in courses covering the history of religion, anthropology, sociology, mythology, etc.

"So if this is not clear to some, let's just ask Thomas Jefferson what it means.
"
A quote without context is deceiving. Jefferson’s thoughts on this clearly restrict the government not people. Several days after Jefferson penned that letter he attended a church service held in the house chambers. In its day it was the largest attended church in the region. I believe his actions combined with his words speak the truth on the issue.

It should also be noted that the Christian bible calls for a separation of church and state as well. The Christian god wants nothing to do with government and it appears the "Christians" that are pushing for more God in government are not paying attention on Sunday.

Ah, setting up a straw man, not suprising. First, in founding documents the refrence is always "God" or "Creator", never Christ.
God is almost exclusively used by the Christian faith to describe the "Supreme Being". They don't reference Allah, Buddah, etc. as those would be "a God".
I could submit the Decleration of Independence, but were all familiar with that.
Is it coincidence that we as a country have adopted laws that roughly follow the 10 commandments in many ways? How about swearing on bibles, printed money, the pledge of allegiance (yes, it was changed in 1954) etc. There are many examples of "God", not Allah, Buddah, Muhammed or any other figure from any other religion. I will also submit the following:

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

Also, 106 out of the 108 first universities were Christian.



In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation."

Give it a rest. That ain't what they intended.

You shall have no other gods before me.
Is this a new law? i don't remember that one. Am I breaking it?

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
How do we know what not to carve? Maybe we need to supreme court on this one?

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Oh god...wait...doh! I better hide!

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Did you work your six days? What about your manservant? Is fishing holy or considered work?

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
Good advice but not a law the last I checked.

You shall not murder.
More good advice. A lot of politicians are going to hell.

You shall not commit adultery.
takes the fun out of it. In some states this is still illegal. Some not. Nothing about it at the federal level though.

You shall not steal.
A lot of politicians and bankers are going to hell.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Except when bashing RWWJ's. Also not considered work so seven days a week is OK even for your manservant.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Wow. All of Enumclaw are going to hell.

Politics are so fucced up as it is, why one would want to throw in religion into that shitshow is beyond me.

Almost exclusively? Wow. So by you're own observation Christ is never mentioned, but Nature's God (a Deist reference) and Man's Creator (another Deist reference) are mentioned solely in the Declaration of Independence. There's also a mention of Devine Providence, yet another Deist reference. So how then do you make the leap to conclude this nation is founded on Christianity? From Glenn Beck? Oh, wait, he's Mormon. You do know the definition of Christianity, I presume. Is it simply because the founding fathers attended mass? They also brewed their own beer and distilled their own liquor; was this nation founded on alcohol as well? Franklin and others were known womanizers; was this nation founded on debauchery, too?

When it comes to requisite mental furniture, you're virtually a vast empty warehouse.

"Almost exclusively? Wow. So by you're own observation Christ is never mentioned, but Nature's God (a Deist reference) and Man's Creator (another Deist reference) are mentioned solely in the Declaration of Independence. There's also a mention of Devine Providence, yet another Deist reference. So how then do you make the leap to conclude this nation is founded on Christianity?"

Those words were written by Jefferson a known deist who was also known to attend only Christian churches. He is also considered to be one of the most intelligent men who ever lived, well versed in astronomy and holding the largest library in the world on geography and the natural world. I would not attempt to put him in a box as he was a very pragmatic person that defies stereotype.

"They also brewed their own beer and distilled their own liquor; was this nation founded on alcohol as well?"

Pretty much, water was so suspect in those days alcohol was part of the daily ration considered mandatory for members of the military. The Virginia gentry would start drinking shortly after lunch and many would be staggering drunk by dinner, it was considered normal in the day. The views on drinking then are much like they are in modern day Japan. Jefferson had on of the largest and most worldly wine collections know at the time.

"From Glenn Beck? Oh, wait, he's Mormon."

And he wasn't always. Seems contrary to the founding fathers.

BD is GB's manservant.

Just have to say. . .. .WOW .. . this thread is entertaining and educational. . .. .. . .


If I don't beleive in a Hell, how can the Christian whack jobs send me there ? ?? ?? ?

They can't.

If you don't believe in hell why worry about it?

I thought you said you spent some time in the Ranger Bat...

I think the whole problem with BD's understanding of this is that he doesn't know what deism is. Maybe instead of producing material on how and why the founding fathers were deists, I should have previously made a post about what deism is.

So as long as on the seventh day you go to church, pray and do no work you can covet goats the rest of the week as long as they aren't your neighbors? I'm still trying to understand this.

AM I can prove there's an Obama.

Nope, fished the Yakima yesterday taking cool photos of fall colors and a few fish. My comment was directed at yours about if you had a religion.