here's a link to some good bead info
http://gigharborflyshop.blogspot.com/2010/12/incredable-edible-bead.html

Bead pimper.

You guys selling 12 mil faceted orange? Hard to find these days. If so, i'll take a few doz.

Nice post. Liked the bit about eggs and the life cycle of fish. There is something to be said for imprinting.

I am however pissed you publicly spilled the beans to the WA crowd. There goes the almost secret...

Nice work OP, ill be getting ahold of ya soon for some bead/intruder discussions.

Bead intruder?

Sounds like some sort of fetish party. I should have figured that's how you roll Keith.

You fly guys are weird.

bead

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for posting something so blasphemous! Just kidding.

What secret Coley? Beads are all over the webz re WA steelheading, and have been for a couple years or more.

OPfisher,

As an old school swinger, I know little about nymphing, but used beads once in AK. Given that even a 12 mm bead is small relative to most steelhead lures, do nymphers use them only when fishing extremely clear water? I'm curious about how low of visibility water can be with beads still being effective.

Sg

Salmo- In steelhead green water, the last two trips we've hooked 40 fish on 12mm beads. They work in not just gin clear water quite well.
I made that birght orange color one just for higher water and it has been my go to so far this winter.
When I was guiding the Methow last fall we ran 12mm or 10mm beads... and they chomped them in the clear water so I dont think it matters too much.

40 fish in 2 trips? That ain't ordinary steelheading. You fishing on the rez?

Sg

"Ordinary" all depends on who you are and, perhaps more importantly, where you are at. Schoenweiss and I got into some fishing last Sunday that made our eyes bug out. No rez fishing for us. I'm guessing OP was fishing the same water? It also helps that OP is a master nymph guide. He's been known to churn out some stupid-good numbers more often than most.

I first learned how effective beads where a few years ago fishing in SE AK for trout and steelhead. Since then I've acquired a ton of beads in all different colors and sizes. In Idaho we use double bead nymphing rigs or a bead and a glo bug. That combo has put many steelhead on the bank and my buddy who guides for the fly shop down there uses beads almost exclusively. There extremely effective in both vodka clear water or your typical steelhead green water. When the water is murky i prefer swinging bigger patterns over nymphing, but I've seen beads work in water with a couple foot of vis on more than one occasion...
Depending on water conditions i normally run a 12mm bead on top, then a 10mm bead on bottom.
A bead box with several different colors, sizes and beads in different finishes is golden. Some toothpicks, splitshot and a few thingamabobbers and your fishing...

I was being a little sarcastic and mainly just giving our golden boy a hard time...in good humor.

Of course fishing the bead isn't a secret anywhere folks fish for trout and/or steelhead. That having been said, there is a huge difference in the number of people fishing them and their level of skill at doing so between WA/OR and other places farther north.

I have been quietly waiting and wondering when the bead revolution will sweep the west coast. Perhaps never, as there seems to be more of a wide spread loyalty to style over effectiveness in those parts.

The fact that one can hardly find a decent selection of beads in any shop down thataway speaks to the limited interest in the method...thus far.

Oh, and they work just fine, perhaps even better in dirty water. Similar principles apply to gear or fly selection based on clarity. Most would downsize and favor more natural finishes in clear water, big and bright in dirty.

Coley made me a bead believer!

AP,

I guess my point is that you don't hook 40 fish unless there are at least 40 fish around. Most of the places I'm familiar with don't have 40 fish in the entire river reach over two days, which is why I asked. Hatchery steelhead generally aren't too abundant these days except at select hatchery blood holes on the coast. I know a lot of good anglers who don't catch that many fish, mainly because there aren't that many fish around, in which case it doesn't matter who you are or how well you can fish.

I understand that nymphing can be as productive as gear fishing, because in a lot of circumstances it is gear fishing. 40 fish over 2 days is damn good fishing on any kind of sports tackle. Hell, I've seen a lot of gill nets that don't catch 40 steelhead in two days.

Rossiman,

Are you saying that a steelhead will pass up one bead and take another? I have never tried beads for steelhead, but the most selective steelhead I've ever fished are inland fall steelhead that are experiencing heavy fishing pressure. And then I'd call them mildly selective at most. I can understand AK trout, grayling, and char that feed extensively on loose salmon eggs becoming keyed in to a specific size and color, but it would be a new day for me to see steelhead, you know, that pea-brained sea run rainbow that will hit anything properly placed in front of it, to refuse one bead and strike another.

Are you referring to the late season SF Clearwater "boot" fishery? I've read that nymphing beads is popular and productive there. I presume it's because of all the hatchery steelhead that spawn there, causing a "hatch" to be matched that attracts the other steelhead. I've only fished the lower CW in ID in Sept./Oct. and never seen anyone nymph there.

Coley,

Is the difference because bead fishing in AK is essentially "matching the hatch?" In WA steelhead tend to be more opportunistic than deliberate feeders, so I think there is less incentive to engage in "hatch-matching" effort. When there are good numbers of early steelhead in the Grande Ronde and grasshoppers still around, that is about as close to matching the hatch steelhead fly fishing I've ever heard of. I suppose some bead selectivity might occur like right now on the Salmon where QIN hatchery coho and chinook are actively spawning and shedding enough loose eggs for the hatchery steelhead to take an interest and maybe even key in on them. I don't think I've ever been there when that might be going on, so I've never seen it.

I think there is a bit of a loyalty over effectiveness preference that appears to be age-distributed. Those who fly fished for steelhead in WA when the regulations didn't allow lead, either on the fly or as split shot on the leader, tend to fish swung flies exclusively or nearly so. My philosophy has long been that anyone who needs to catch a steelhead ought not to fly fish for them. It looks to me that younger fly fishermen who have come to steelheading through trout fishing, that wasn't constrained by the no-lead rule, and that included nymph fishing, are more open to nymphing for steelhead with fly gear instead of using a spinning rod which is far better suited to the technique. A lot of old school steelheaders used to put their fly rods away in the winter and take up drift rods simply because lead is better suited to the deep deliveries necessary to take winter steelhead with any consistency.

I keep hearing about some OR fly guys who are totally into nymphing for winter steelhead because apparently most of the OR N. coast rivers have an incised stream channel morphology that is best suited to nymphing and is nigh on impossible to swing. I don't know if they're into beads specifically, but they catch as many winter steelhead as their spin fishing counterparts, which I guess pencils out since they're essentially fishing the same way.

So is there a 3/4" diameter bead for dirty water? The Queets often runs with about 10" visibility, and 6 to 8" streamers seem to be in order. What bead or bead combination would be appropriate for that fishery? Or is that outside the bounds of suitable bead fishing?

How's that AK winter treating you?

Sg

All I know is that beads flat out put on a clinic in a hole after which Todd and I thoroughly worked it over with all our tried and trues!

Salmo im talking about the Clearwater in Sep, Oct and November. The latest I fish there is Thanksgiving weekend. As far as double bead nymph rigs, ya i think it makes a difference to have two beads, or a glo bug and bead. IMO, its never bad to give them two different offerings. They don't necessarily have to be different colored beads, but i like to use a 12mm bead on top and a 10mm bead on the bottom.

Steelhead can be incredibly selective with the beads they will take. I think that it is accurate to say that most steelhead runs occur well outside of typical salmon spawning cycles. As such, I don't think matching the hatch has much to do with turning steelhead on. Rainbows can also be and quite often are incredibly selective as well, but in a different way. Rainbows tend to have a strong preference for natural size and color and they are absolutely clued into the spawning cycle and, obviously, targeting this specifically. My three best steelhead beads, by far, are nothing close to natural looking. Take the Jerry Garcia glo bug? Not one of my favorites, but wicked deadly, and nothing close to natural.

Speaking to steelhead, for whatever reason certain beads seem to turn them on at certain times and under certain conditions more than others. In that sense, bead fishing can be pretty fun and challenging. Trying to find that days or that rivers "magic bead" can take a fair amount of time and homework. On rivers I am not familiar with, quite often I fish stretches of a river changing beads until I find one that works. Over time, I have narrowed quite a wide range of beads down to a handful. When I know am fishing to fish, it is rare that I won't get them to take one of the lot, and usually once you find that one, you catch pretty consistently. What the fish take can vary from day to day even on the same stretch of river under similar conditions.

There is a lot more to bead fishing than immediately meets the eye. Even within the bead fishing cliques, there is a big difference between those that know how to do it, and those that have it dialed.

Personally, I don't view it as a replacement for any other technique or something to drop all else for and take up exclusively. I think it is just another tool in the kit that has it's time and place. Sometimes that time or place is dictated by my mood as a fisherman, and sometimes it comes as a result of what the river is showing me. One thing is for sure, when the time is right, it can be the ultimate way to get fish to eat that otherwise wouldn't.

I don't necessarily agree about the fly rod not being the most effective way to present beads either. I would have a few years ago, but after spending quite a bit of time fishing them on long float and center pin rods, I can still work certain types of water far more effectively with my fly rod than I can with any other. The ability to mend a floating line and orient your terminal tackle downstream and into narrow slots for the "perfect drift" is often much easier with fly gear. I find that I fish a lot of water less effectively with traditional gear, and less water much more effectively with fly gear. With this method, it's all about the second or two the bead is in front of the fish and how good your bead and drift are, not necessarily about covering lots of water.

sorry for the novel

One more point, if you are going to get into this thing, be prepared to explain to your pals why you have a wide selection of fashionable nail polishes in your traveling fishing kit. You might want to pick up a few more tackle boxes while you are at it.

Nice looking bead boxes

That is the reject pile. Got the magic beads tucked away

Dang Coley,

If beads ever went out of fashion by a steelhead's standard, you could go into jewelry making.

LOL. I've seen it 2nd hand too many times to question it so I'm a firm believe in Coley's Bead Bible.

Salmo, you are correct that having fish in front of a fisherman is usually the limiting factor. For us, it happened to be one of those "you shouda been here yesterday" days. Fortunately, it was "yesterday". We were a little good and a lot lucky. You are are also correct that it wasn't "ordinary steelheading". At least not for me. I don't know if Justin was at the same place we were but, if so, I'm pretty sure he could have outfished our gear with his nymphs. He is one fishy dude.

Its now
Aaron- thanks for the nice words <3 U
salmo-no rez fishing, just have the luxury of hitting it when it needed to be hit one day for me and another for a client. first nate of the year the other day too!

coley- 10-24mm?

Yup.

We need to catch up dude. Been a while.

Beads suck...

AK style double peg! damn son! stepping the game up

Coley call me today if you get a chance. I wana catch up and what not

Is it just me...or is putting a thread about "bead fishing" on the flyfishing board about the same as putting a thread about steak recipes on the PETA board?

Delivering beads with a flyrod, flyfishing it ain't...or anything close to it.

Fish on...

Todd

I didn't take you for a purist Todd!

OK, a bead isn't a fly, being solid plastic and all. But is a globug tied with yarn a legitimate fly? Most people say it is because it qualifies as either a tie to imitate food or as an attractor. I don't know about steelhead, but everything I hear about trout fishing in AK - and my personal experience is too limited - is that the trout are gobbling loose eggs up and swallowing them so fast that too many trout taken on globugs get hooked far back in the throat, whereas with pegged beads they get flossed from the outside in or at worst, hooked in the hinge of the jaw on the inside. Quite the controversy for some, since flossing is defined as unsporting, yet it demonstrably harms far fewer fish.

Interesting statement by Coley that a fair amount of the time he can fish a bead better with a fly rod than with conventional gear. I would think a spinning rod and greased line or braid would make for the most natural drift.

I don't know if it's analogous to putting steak recipes on a PETA board. I was thinking maybe it's closer to fvking for chastity.

Sg

Rossiman,

When you nymph fish the CW, are you "bobber-dogging" or some such? My experience on the CW is limited, but from what I've seen most holding water is in very broad pools, the kind of water that was made for swinging. It seems like it would take a week to nymph fish one piece of water, if I'm understanding the method being the conventional dead drift. Plus, how long of a cast can be effectively nymph fished? It seems like it would be nearly impossible to get a very long dead drift on say, an 80' cast. And some anglers consider an 80' cast cast on the CW a short one.

Coley,

It ain't no novel, so don't apologize! It's an interesting variation to me. The notion of nymph fishing for steelhead was first discussed with a friend in the mid-80s. He had caught two steelhead that way, one in the Carbon and another on the Hoko. Intrigued, I gave it a try on water that wasn't restricted to fly only, since the regs didn't permit any lead on flies or leaders then. I must have fished that method for almost an hour and a half before reverted to the far more comfortable wet fly swing. I've tried it a couple times since, and a couple times for trout, and am now probably up to a good four hours total invested in nymph and bobber fishing (with zero fish caught, I might add). Oh, except for the day spent bead fishing for mainly char in AK one summer.

If salmon egg hatch matching doesn't account for steelhead bead selectivity, do you have any hypotheses that would? All my experiences with steelhead selectivity have been the product of fishing pressure. I subscribe to the theory that an undisturbed steelhead will hit the first properly presented bait or lure it sees because that has served well for decades. Disturbed steelhead often won't hit anything at all, and when they do hit, it's usually something different and random. Under what kind of conditions have you observed steelhead selectivity?

That's quite a selection of flavors you have there in your boxes! That begs the following question. If steelhead can be so selective, what is your fishing strategy?

If that isn't obvious, let me explain my premise. Although it varies from river to river, let me offer the Skagit or Sauk as an example. I figure about 90% of the river or more is not steelhead holding water, so I don't fish it. Then there's maybe 10% that is suitable holding water, but at any given time only 10% of that 10% (i.e., 1%) actually holds steelhead, and that's only if there is a good run and we're at or near the peak of the season. As a practical matter and being a traditional wet fly swinger, I'll try to cover as much suitable holding water as I can in a day, since even most of the good holding water isn't occupied by a fish when I'm fishing it. So I'll try to fish 5 to 8 good pieces of holding water in the course of a day's fishing. I fish each piece once, never repeating a cast unless I blow one or draw a rise or a strike. I generally only change flies when I snag and break off, and would never fish through a pool twice unless I had knowledge certain that there was a fish there that didn't hit on the first pass through the pool.

What you described regarding bead fishing is, I think, physically impossible in one day's fishing. It could take all of 8 hours or more to fish one pool on the Skagit thoroughly, experimenting with different sizes and colors of beads. However, I don't think the experimenting would be necessary, since any fish present would likely hit the first offering presented, but that scene doesn't fit your selectivity schema.

It appears that a bead fishing strategy would best fit two scenes: 1) very small streams, and 2) water that you have knowledge certain that is stacked with steelhead, like a hatchery blood hole. Otherwise, in order to fish 3 bead sizes in 4 different color patterns, you would run out of daylight fishing the first pool on a 6 mile float down the Sauk River, for instance, and assuming you began at daylight. See what I mean?

You said, "With this method, it's all about the second or two the bead is in front of the fish and how good your bead and drift are, not necessarily about covering lots of water." That pretty much restricts a person in WA to the places steelhead stack up, like the hatchery blood holes, and precious few places for wild fish. And those are the places that get hammered hard, day in and day out, and then the fish fit my above philosophy about not hitting the first properly presented bait or lure, or maybe anything at all sometimes.

I don't anticipate getting into the bead scene in a big way. I have some beads that I took to AK 3 and 4 years ago (probably all fit into a couple compartments in one of your big boxes or rejects). Still haven't tried them here. The closest I've come is a couple small streams I sometimes fish that have only a few spots that swing well. In order to get a day's fishing out of it, I created a bastardized setup, where I just remove my sink tip and add an 8 or 10' 8# leader and a split shot a foot above my fly, no bobber. It gets down in narrow slots and then fishes what I imagine is kind of a Liesenring lift, an old nymph fishing method if you never heard of it, instead of a swing. It's limited to shorter casts, less than 50'. It seems to work, and is easy to switch back to conventional wet fly swing for the next spot suited to it.

OP,

See what you've started? Todd the mod is gonna' want a separate forum created for bastard child fishing methods. But a great conversation starter!

Twitch - oh no! Not you too! Yeah, I see beads suck even in Orygun. Actually, what I hear is that the N. coast rivers don't have much water well suited to the traditional wet fly swing, but lots of bedrock formed slots and so forth.

Sg

We steelhead fishermen call that "drift fishing"...

Fish on...

Todd

...and if you use a strike indicator, we call that "bobber and jig" fishing...

Fish on...

Todd

Gee Todd, you sorta' suck the elitism right outa' fly fishin'. That ain't no fun.

Sg

Flyfishing uses...

1. First and foremost...flies. Not beads, not jigs.

2. Flylines, and leaders...no boobers, no drift weights.

The inverse would be calling it flyfishing if I put a spey fly on the end of my drift gear...

Fish on...

Todd

who cares how anyone likes to fish as long as they're happy, it's legal and doesnt harm the fish?

Don't get me wrong...I think it's a perfectly legit way to fish...just don't call it flyfishing...

Fish on...

Todd

why not, if you're fly casting it?
yes, windshield wiping is what guides tell clietns that have no ability is fly fishing, but someone who can fly cast can still fly cast that rig?
Is it cool if we remove the bobber and then fish a bead?

Is it flyfishing if I can use one of my rods to heave a Kwikfish out there?

I'm guessing not...and for the same reason that I'd say bead fishing is not flyfishing...

Would it be different if you pinned a corkie on the line instead of a neutrally bouyant bead? Now not flyfishing?

How about if I throw a Dick Nite, aka, the Spey Spoon? Flyfishing, just because you use a flyrod to cast it?

I think not.

Fish on...

Todd

I'd like that...more than one day...

"Nymphing" is float and jig fishing, just using a halfass tool to deliver it...spinning rods work much better.

Fish on...

Todd

So long as your weight isn't tapping along the bottom, i.e., driftfishing, I can accept a little bit of weight on the leader...but there's no way whatsoever that a strike indicator and weighted fly is anything but float and jig fishing with the wrong rod...and dragging a bead on the bottom with a strike indicator is bobber fishing, whether you do it with a spey rod, center pin, spinning rod, or casting rod...

Fish on...

Todd

That's exactly how they do it...

Fish on...

Todd

It's all fishin' to me. If I'm catching fish, I's like it.

I agree...just sayin' it's not flyfishing just because you use a flyrod...

Fish on...

Todd

I watched a guy who had to back troll a K-15 with his spey pride rod so he could catch one. Do I call it fly fishing, no, he didnt even cast. Did the dude have a big old grin on his face and enjoy the hell out of his time on the water; Ya...... So who really cares?
I've watched guys put a fly with a spinner blade, (basically a small rooster tail) on and swing them? fly fishing, probably not, did they catch fish and were happy? Ya.... and even crazier was it's legal in fly only water in AK.
So why does it matter that much to anyone?

Just do what makes you happy in life!

I fish beads once and a while using my center pin. If there are salmon present that are actively spawning, then I will try to match the hatch. Otherwise, I just treat beads as attractors. My selection is dependent on water conditions, and is similar to what I might select if I was drift fishing with corkies. My go to is an 8 mm bead that has been painted with a bright neon orange nail polish that I saw my wife wearing one day. It seems to work well on fresh run steelhead in coastal rivers. However, I usually use duller pink and orange colors on inland steelhead stocks (upper Columbia). Anyhow, that is just my 2 cents. Obviously, there are guys on this board who had a lot more experience fishing beads.

I pretty much agree with you Todd. Interesting though that a very large part of what is now generally perceived as fly fishing wouldn't qualify under the old WA fly only rules. As near as I can tell, it came to WA as Montana trout nymph fishing techniques migrated to the Yakima River trout fishery. Although the Yak isn't fly only, most people fly fish on that river. Next step is guys wanted to take the same nymphing techniques to other waters that included fly only, NF Stilly and Kalama, and maybe fly only lakes chironomid fishing. Used to have to fish chironomids without any lead or bead weight. Anyway, fly only regs changed to permit weighted flies and lead shot on leaders.

Todd, if you accept a "little bit" of weight, then where is the line? My take is that fly fishing isn't as black and white as it once was. Traditionally lead was not a part of fly fishing. To say that a little bit of lead is still fly fishing, but that a lot of lead isn't seems to make the discussion one about shades of grey, instead of a line that demarcates black and white.

OP,

It's all cool with Todd; it's just not fly fishing when it includes weight.

Who cares? I agree as long as we're taking about anyone else. I care about me and what I do. That's not to say I'm elitist. I fish the way I do mainly out of habit and also because I'd rather fly cast without lead than with it. I've done it a bit and fully intend to do it more. One of the main reasons is because I don't do as much trout fishing as I'd like, and from trout fishing we know that if nothing's hatching, nymphing is usually the right thing to do. And I don't have much experience at it, and trout aren't very forgiving of unnatural presentations or late hook sets. It was easier in AK where I could see fish take the bead; a lot harder fishing for unseen brown trout in Utah.

So even if, going along with Todd here, it isn't fly fishing, I'm OK with it because I've been trying to "broaden" my horizons as an angler and become more well rounded. I fish for salmon with herring, and it hasn't occurred to me to even try that with a fly rod. The upshot that makes this discussion interesting for me is that I expect to take more trout fishing trips, and sometimes nymphing will be the only way to get a strike, so that's why I want to learn more about it. Unlike S. salar, I didn't move anywhere to swing for steelhead; I've been doing it most of my life now.

S. salar,

Yeah, swingers fish for players, but I'm still of the persuasion that most if not all undisturbed steelhead are players, unless water conditions are adverse. A potential value of nymphing beads is when you're stuck fishing water that's just getting hammered, and all the players have been hooked or at least disturbed. As steelhead populations continue to decline, and the angler population continues to increase, undisturbed steelhead are going to be increasingly uncommon, unfortunately.

Cobble Cruiser,

Lucky for you to be so easily satisfied! But really, so long as you're catching? I'm assuming you have standards, like hook and line as opposed to including explosives and gillnets. I really like gillnetting; it's more challenging than some think; and it usually does a reasonable job at catching. But it takes a big pile of fish to "make a good day," and then you have this pile of fish to deal with. Part of the attraction of less effective methods of catching fish is that a lot more social benefit can be had from a given number of fish. Just because someone is catching fish doesn't make it all good. I mean, consider the treaty fishermen who are gillnetting a few tote loads of steelhead. Hey, they're catching fish, so it's all good, right? There is value in being harder to satisfy.

Sg

Bead fishing is incredibly controntational, even among fly fishers. On other fly fishing sites, they go on for pages and pages, trying to explain and justify their preferred fishing methods.

I spent a week this past fall fishing BC and the guys I was with refuse to nymph fish or bobber fish as they don't consider it fly fishing. But they will add lead to their leader to get down and cast upstream to achieve a dead drift and pick line as that is considered fly fishing from a traditional sense.

I think Sg's comparison between gear fishing, fly fishing, and gill netting are pretty extreme as the latter is much further away than the former two. I think part of it is the angler's intent; whether for sport or food. At some point in their lives, most ethical anglers arrive to a point that their are comfortable with, fishing wise. Their methods are defined and they accept the terms with which they set for themselves. Often times that is by conceding to the fact that they will acceptingly chose a method more difficult and less productive, usually fly fishing (which can have its own levels of fishing (nymphing, swinging, floating line, dry fly only etc.) knowing they could catch more fish using different methods but would prefer to catch a fish on their own terms. Unfortunatley as fish become more scarce, this practice may well go the way of the dinosaur.

half right, one can use bead eyes on flies, but one cannot put shot on the leader. from the reg book:

"Fly Fishing Only In “Fly Fishing Only” waters,
an angler may use only the following tackle: up
to 2 flies, each with a barbless single-point hook,
not to exceed ½" from point to shank, and a
conventional fly line (other line may be used for
backing or leader if attached to at least 25 feet of
fly line). Anglers may not use fixed spool reels,
bait, or weight attached to the leader or line.
Only knotless nets may be used to land fish."[u][/u]

OP, in case you didn't get it the first few times I said it, I have no problem with bead fishing...it's legal, it's legit, and it's productive as hell...so no worries there. It's just not flyfishing, there's more to it than just using a flyrod to deliver the goods.

Typically it's the hardcore flyfishers, those who refuse to fish in any other way than flyfishing, who react the most terribly when having this discussion...some of them bead fish, and you should hear the contortions they have to go through to justify their technique as flyfishing...I'm surprised they don't all have broken bones and torn ligaments from the twisting and bending!

The hardcore flyfishers who agree with my way of thinking are the most vociferous...they see it as a gross bastardization of 'their' sport...they'd prefer that bead fishermen do it with spinning rods or something so no one confuses the bead fishermen with "flyfishermen"...

After a day of bead fishing, and you've caught a few fish, and someone asks how you got 'em, do you go home and tell people you were flyfishing that day...or bead fishing?

Fish on...

Todd

You thought the last one was long and boring Again, my apologies.

As a preface, everything you/we know about steelhead behavior applies directly to this style of fishing. We are fishing to the same fish under the same range of conditions, but this method in particular has definitely opened my eyes to a few behavioral traits that I wasn’t formerly in touch with. One key difference that I would highlight is that to me it seems as though a much higher percentage of fish will respond to dead drifted bait, an egg pattern/bead especially, than would move to a swung offering be that a spoon, worm, fly, etc. If using the concept of players, a hole with 9 fish in it might have 1 that would move to a swung fly or spoon, 2 or 3 that would eat a dead drifted bait or jig, and 6 that would eat an egg. I use these numbers to loosely illustrate a point, but after a handful of years mixing this beading technique into my toolbox for steelhead, I think the concept at least is close accurate.




A surprisingly long one. It takes a lot of work, but one can actually fish a pretty substantial stretch of water effectively per each cast. Definitely more linear feet of water per cast than swinging because you are fishing as soon as your line is in the water upstream until your line is tight downstream. That having been said, swinging is a far more effective way to cover from near to far. In nymphing, the longer the cast and the farther you try to reach with it, the harder it is to mend and generally the less water you are fishing effectively. That having been said, maintaining a perfect dead drift for your entire cast isn’t necessary, and quite often I am mending and moving line and the terminal tackle to get it running in the zone I want throughout the cast.



That is the million dollar question my good man! External influences aside, the same factors that would lead them to strike anything of a given shape, size, or color over something else. If your bait is in the broad range of what steelhead tend to bite, color, contrast, and movement for starters. A lot of attention is given to the light reflection and/or lack there of in beading. Oddly enough, my best bead is a solid color rather than translucent or opaque like many successful beads. Neutral bouyancy and the weight/density of the bead is super important as well to give the bead natural action as it rolls and bounces along the bottom, catching micro-currents along it’s drift.



My experience has been more or less the same and I agree. Most undisturbed steelhead are fairly un-selective in the bead that they will take, and likewise would have more likely than not taken anything else that was put in front of them. I think the bead shines in situations where steelhead have seen fishing pressure, or in situations where they are less comfortable. Low and clear being the easiest of the latter to define.

Eating and egg is natural, easy, and something that I think is heavily imprinted from a trout’s younger days. Interestingly enough, I have caught (not flossed) all 5 species of pacific salmon on egg patterns, although not with regularity. Eating an egg isn't an act of aggression and it doesn't really seem to involve the predatory instinct at all. It doesn't usually require a lot of effort on the fishes part, and it has nothing to do with territorial issues. Fishing the bead is perhaps the most minimally intrusive presentation I have come across, which if you are fishing to pressured fish that seem to have a case of lockjaw, is a big benefit. Certainly care has to be taken to manage your line and offering in such a way that you don't put the fish down (as can happen with terminal gear that tries to appeal to the more aggressive instincts of the fish), but outside of your line and indicator, it is very rare that you spook or even turn fish off with the bead. In my opinion, this is evidenced by fish eating a bead after having seen perhaps a handful or more presentations of the same or similar pattern, and in many cases, after having been fished to several times with other methods as well.

Quite often I catch fish out of a given stretch of water after having fished through it a a handful of times with different beads. To me, this says that the fish was comfortable, willing to eat, but just hadn't seen something that it wanted or was curious enough to move for. I do not believe that the same fish would have eaten the 14th spoon that it saw just because it was the right color or wobbled just the right way at the right time.



It varies based on a number of personal and environmental factors. Your summary of approaching Sauk/Skagit style rivers sounds very logical and I would say that I would take a similar approach to those rivers, regardless of what rod and gear I was using. Generally I usually fish in two “modes” either searching the water, or working it. If I am in searching mode, I either don't know the river well enough to be confident that I am fishing to fish, or I am uncertain that there are many fish in the system at that point.

Working mode applies when I am confident that there are fish in the system and I know, within a matter of feet, where they are at.

In searching mode with a bead, I carry two rods, each with one of my tried and true favorites on the end of the line. I fish much as you described fishing the Sauk and Skagit, with the difference being I will make one pass per each rod/bead and move on if there are no signs of life.

Working, much the same but I will take switch gear, positions, casting angle, depth/length of leader, amount of weight, etc. and take the time to be sure that any fish in that stretch has had more than one or two looks at a few variations in gear and presentation before I move on.



Yes and no. Small water is far more friendly to fish than larger water, but more important than the size of the river is the likelihood that the piece of water your fishing as at least a fish in it. Obviously the more fish in a given stretch, the better the odds are that one (or more) will bite. Again, I believe a much higher percentage of fish will eat an egg than would take something else.

I have only fished the bead to hatchery fish a few times. As Justin has recently demonstrated, it works just fine, but personally I don't have any perspective for you that has been gained as a result of flogging hatchery terminal zones. The given piece of water doesn't need to be stacked, but I need to be reasonably confident that it has something in it to spend the time to work it over carefully. If I am not, again I am covering lots of water, targeting the places that look promising or that I know hold fish.

[/quote]


On thing that I am convinced of, is that what leads a fish to eat an egg seems to come from a very different place than what would inspire them to chase a fly, spoon, worm, or even eat a dead drifted bait or jig. In some cases, they quite literally can’t refuse it and will go to great lengths to get it. Although, the less they have to work the better!



Nailed it.

I have rambled long enough, and in doing so, haven’t said anything that hasn’t been mentioned at least twice before. All of this is obviously just one perspective and in sharing it, I am not trying to present anything authoritative of course. As I mentioned earlier, beads are just another tool for the toolbox to be used if and you wind up looking for something different.

PS - we haven't even discussed rigging, that is another 2-3 page discussion in and of itself

I tell them I was fishing...and they ate whatever it is was they ate.

Why the need for such distinctions. We are all playing the same game with, in reality, slight variations in gear.

An observation...

On a particularly good hole on the Kispiox this past fall, Cobble Cruiser and I had, in a few passes early on, then a few more in the afternoon, hooked something in the neighborhood of 18 fish out of a stretch of river not 100 feet long.

As you would expect, it started out a house afire, and then we would go thru short stretches of time with no hookups, followed by a few right in a row, followed by increasingly longer stretches of time with no hookups, and less and less 'clumped up' bites...

At the very end of the evening, a couple of our campmates throwing spey rods and beads under thingamabobbers joined us in that spot, and we suggested since the spot was clearly full of fish, that they hit it for a bit, and we sat back on a log to watch the show.

John hooked up on a bead in about three minutes...Nate missed a couple of quick strikes...and a few minutes after landing John's fish, Nate and John were into a double.

They hooked three fish in a very small spot in the space of ten minutes...a spot that we had already taken a pile of fish out of with spoons, drift gear, worms, a float and jig, and I think Tony may have hit one in there that day on a spinner, too...

To make it even more interesting, we never got a fish out of that particular spot that day that was bigger than twelve pounds...the first one John hooked was about 15...

That fish had been there all day, had seen spoons, spinners, worms, drift gear, float and jigs...and hadn't given us any play time.

Five casts with a bead, and the biggest fish in the hole was on the line.

If anyone doubts the effectiveness of this technique, I wish they could have been there to see that display!

Fish on...

Todd

Hey, I hooked more then one...I think.

I'm not gonna lie. My pride might have been a little tested that evening..............Goes to show just like ol' Bill says; "None of us knows more than all of us" Ofcourse not that I know a whole lot........just sayin'.

No Tony.......no ya didn't. But you could imagine if you did. ........just horsin'.

Let's just say we hooked 21 between us...an average of sever per person

Fish on...

Todd

Geez Todd, didn't ya' know the standard explanation is that the 15# fish just moved into the pool as John began casting . . . OK, I wish I'd been there to see it happen. One of the neat things about fishing, is that there is always another thing to learn.

Hey Coley,

It's only long and boring if yer a "hunt n peck" typist. This is one of the most interesting threads I've been in in a long time. The "gist" of fishing is pretty uncommon on BBs anymore, like it's all been talked out and then some. This variation is enough out of the ordinary to sustain more interest. Hell, even Todd the champion of the pink worm is invested in the discussion, altho he's pretty concerned about beads not being fly fishing (t.i.c.).

You realize I hope that it's positively devastating to learn that among undisturbed steelhead, some of the bastiches might not be players. My entire fishing strategy is based on it being a waste of time to fish twice through a pool. Well, I guess it still is, since if they didn't hit, they weren't players. (Mental note to self: if fishing through a second time, make it a bead.) What you say about strategy makes sense with respect to a high probability of fish presence. It still seems like it would take an inordinate amount of time to use the technique for searching.

As for making a distinction between fishing methods, I think it's most useful for comparing apples to apples. When it comes to fishing for winter steelhead, I have no expectation of as many hookups as my counterpart fishing with bait, or beads as it now turns out. And comparisons are useful in the course of a fishing trip, trying to figure out if fish are in the system in numbers, and if they're in the lower, middle, or upper reaches.

OP,

I sure hope it doesn't seem like your thread got hijacked. I think it's evolved into one of the more interesting steelhead discussions I've seen here in a long time.

Sg

toff, define fly fishing then? Cause I fairly sure I could rig a gear rod and fly fish with it. so is it no longer considered gear fishing then?
like I said, call it what ever you feel like at the end of the day so you're happy

No worries at all
I think the main message has been covered that beads kick ass no matter what you wana call fishing them

Can anyone explain to me how can a guy that sells tackle to people on this board can be such an amazing douchebag to people to who might buy tackle from him?

Who's being a douche Vic? This is just a discussion of bead fishing for steelhead and how it's like fly fishing and how it's different. Most of us are friends here. I have hooks from Todd that I use for fly fishing and some I use on my salmon fishing tackle. Really isn't much to explain.

Sg

Next fall....It's on.

I may have been the douche who said it, I am not the only one who's thinking it.

Of those that have chimed in, you may well be.



I think you misread something.

This thread just added "hilarious" to the list of other attributes it has...

I think it's pretty clear who the "douche" is, and it's the guy who hasn't even participated in the what up until now has been an interesting and entertaining thread...

Carry on.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Every person that is in this conversation is already a customer of mine in some way, and I'm pretty sure this conversation won't change that one bit, except that some of them may need to stock up on #2 octopus hooks from me to get their bead fishing tackle in order!

Vic,

I beg to differ. This thread was all cool with everyone here, but you. What makes you think other readers are on your side of the street? Even KK isn't outside the loop on this one, and he usually tries to be, just because of a goat, or somethin'.

Sg

Hey Todd, is that #2 or #4? Probably the larger in BC now that I think about it. I thought it is generally a smaller hook thing, but that will have to be the next couple of pages when Coley covers rigging . . .

Sg

He can talk bead rigging like nobody's business...he's a master. Our #2's are plenty small...quite a few of the beaders ended up with them on their lines up in BC, and were quite pleased with the results.

Hey, I'll be in Oly for the SCAPG meeting tomorrow, agenda says I'll be done about 4pm...want to grab a beer before I head out of town?

Fish on...

Todd

For steel, #4 in Owner or Gami. I think Todd's #2's are just a bit bigger? Use the smallest hook you can get away with. The bigger the hook, the more it hampers the beads natural action.

Go bead fishing with KK, and he'll probably show up wearing a gag ball and carrying a Batman lunch box loaded with anal beads.

Fish on...

Todd

Toff's #2s were awesome on the Methow, only fish we lost were client error..... Sh!t, that fish is jumping with beads in its face and your line is limp...... saw that a few times but the hooks still stuck
Alogn the lines of what Coley said, the smaller hooks give more natural drift and better penetration.

Our #2's are a bit bigger than a Gami #4, and a bit smaller than a Gami #2, and being pretty fine wire, they seem to fish the beads pretty well.

But what do I know...I'm just a douche

Fish on...

Todd

Finally, something we can all agree on here

Yeah Todd-douche, give me a call cuz I'm not much of a clock watcher. I'll try and remember to set my desk clock for 4. I was gonna' comment on KK's "beads are for hippies" statement, but after your KK and bead remark, I can't bring myself to say anything. I'd buy some more of your hooks Todd, but I have this box of salvaged hooks that I picked up on the rivers, mostly summer fishing on the Cowlitz. Some good brands in the mix, still sharp as can be. I try to stop picking up gear, but can't stop myself, even tho I have no use for 500 corkies.

Fishtale, or do you prefer somewhere else?

Sg

Deal, KK...hell, I've been trying to get rid of you as a fishing partner for years, if I knew that's all it would take, I would have mentioned your gag ball a long time ago

Steve, Fishtale is fine...I'll call you when the meetings are over...I don't know if Curt is keeping tabs on this fine thread or not, but I'll invite him along, too, if he's willing...he's got a pretty good drive home after the meeting, though.

Fish on...

Todd

Apparently I'm confused. I thought flyfishing was define merely as casting by using the energy of the line to propel a lure forward. Nothing more, nothing less.

So are you saying that I'm flyfishing when I'm flicking out baitfish patterns but once I switch to a Clouser then I'm not? ...or is it only when tie my Clouser on a jig hook (as I often do) that I am no longer flyfishing? So when I'm shooting a floater 3 quarters down current and swinging or stripping in then I'm flyfishing but if I cast 1/4 upstream and mend like crazy to change my presentation to a dead drift then I'm not flyfishing? If I suspend my weighted fly using a floating line that is fly fishing but once I add a indicator I'm not?

"You are a dirty-ass nympher..."

SciGuy,

Yeah, about like that, or maybe different. As tradition has given in to innovation, or subversion as some prefer, I decided that fly fishing is anything anyone wants to call it. Because how other people choose to fish is of no matter to me. However, if I see someone with a spinning or baitcasting reel on the NF Stilly in the summer, I'll call on that because WDFW has a legal definition of fly fishing for waters designated as fly fishing only. And since the legal definition has changed over time, it carries less meaning than it once did as the "true" definition of fly fishing.

The true definition has to be philosophical in nature, since the law of the state has shown it can be subverted by the whimsy of political will. A few years back, in a moment of elitist inebriation, I determined that "true" fly fishing consist of, and only of, fishing with fly rods made of split cane, reels made in England, line made of silk (or horsehair for the purists), leaders of gut, and flies dressed only with natural materials, no synthetic fibers or mylar tinsel. And obviously no split shot or dumbell eyes; sorry Clouser fans. Anyone deviating from "true" fly fishing is just another bait chucking subversive using carbon fiber rods, anodized aluminum reels machined initially in the US, but now mostly in Asia, plastic lines, nylon and flourocarbon leader materials, not to mention many forms of metallic adornment to both flies, leaders, and even lines, like those labeled "T" as in T-8, T-11, or T-14, with the T representing tungsten, one of the heavier metals around that isn't radio-active. It's subversion, all of it!

Oh, and it helps if you're wearing a genuine Donegal houndstooth tweed jacket for fishing while you're at it.

Now that we've determined that there isn't a "true" fly fisherman remaining anywhere on the planet, I trust we're all free to carry on and fish as we like, and call it whatever we wish, so long as we keep it legal, since we've clearly forsaken any allegiance to a natural higher law of fly fishing.

AP,

There are several of those xtranormal cartoon about fishing, bait v fly, swing v nymph, and funny, at least for open-minded folks.

Todd,

See you this afternoon.

Sg

The ones that catch fish do. The bead itself doesn't truly have an "action" but in its path down the river, it sure as hell better seem natural.

Coley mentioned it already but, as a watcher, one of the keys to me seems to be the micro-currents mentioned earlier. The bead is one of the only techniques that can get completely pushed into the natural micro-currents and seams. Hence, the importance of its neutral bouyancy. Seems like the bead needs to be put in the right spot and then be allowed to find an even "more right" spot. I always think of the Sol Duc when it comes to this as we found numerous fish dropped into those boulder slots. The best way to get a hook in front of them is to allow the hook to wash its own way in there.

As Coley mentioned, with regard to the length of dead-drifting that can be done before another mend is required, a super-long single drift isn't necessarily required. All you really need is the dead-drift for the right 10 foot section(s) of water. You could make 1 cast, where you distrurb the natural drift of the bead 6 times, and still very effectively work the water. You can drag the line back up and then let it dead drift for another 15 feet, effectively working a different slot that what was worked 30 seconds before. I see this a lot with successful float fishermen, where they don't necessarily reel in and recast but will, instead, reel the float partially in and then allow it to take another pass down a fishy stretch. With the bead, you need to give it a few seconds and a few linear river feet to get down and start allowing it to find its own course.

-AP

very interesting discussion.

i have fly fished a bit...to me fly fishing is not about what is on the end of your line. but about the art of casting and pressenting your "fly" to the fish you are targeting.

but after this discussion it makes me look more into what fly fishing truly is.

SG,

This is as close to a true fly fisher I could find...

KK's younger days.

After a quick glance at the posts, I didn't see a definition posted by anyone to answer your question so I'll take a stab. The way I see it, there is an official definition per the WA regulations booklet. Bascially you need to have a fly line, certain reel, and certain amout of leader for it to be "fly fishing". In AK I believe all you need is a fly, which can be cast on a spinning rod. In OR, I don't believe you can use bobbers at certain times locations and no lead on the leader (same as WA but you can have lead as part of the "fly" design. OR and BC have/had a rule about floating lines only. The point is the official definition of fly fishing can and will change as the values of the anglers change.

Regardless of all that BS above, Todd and others are simply stating that regardless of what the official definition of fly fishing is in any particular area, fishing with beads, jigs, and bobbers is not fly fishing in the traditional sense as far as they are concerned. But if you or anybody else wants to consider it fly fishing, you are entitled to your opinion. But be prepared for some rolled eyes if you say you caught fish while "fly fishing" beads as others definition will certainly be different than yours.

After the next SCPAG meeting, perhaps I'll plan on hanging around for for some post meeting activities.

Just got a sick bamboo rod today...gonna find me an old school reel and me n OPeee r gonna Bamboo UP some beads!!!

Great. Thanks clearing the matter up. Its a good thing too because I look exactly like that guy when I'm on the water...with the only exceptions being that I don't wear a tie or blazer, I prefer a single-handed rod, my hat and waders are smeared with a fine vintage of blood and egg goo, I have a three day old beard, my eyes are bloodshot from staying up until 3 a.m. drinking single malt, and there is copenhagen spit dripping off my chin. Besides that, I'm a dead ringer for the guy in the photo.

Sam,

Although he is dressed in the garb of a "true" fly fisherman, and his reel appears English made, note that his carbon fiber rod and plastic fly rod reveal that he's really just another bait-chucking subversive, like the rest of us.

Dave,

I'm disappointed you over-looked my definitive definition of fly fishing. Whatsa' matter, too "elite" for ya'?

Summerrun,

What grasstick did you get, labeled, unlabeled? What do you think of it? Oh, I guess I see, it's bead suitable; hope you didn't pay too much for it then.

SciGuy,

I look just like that guy too, only I wear an ascot instead of a neck tie and Maui Jims to protect my eyes from sun (what sun?) and errant casts.

Sg

SG...actually it is reserved only for dry fly fishing. It would be blasphemous to even put a sink tip on it!! Unlabled, mint condition, 9'er...shopping ebay now for a suitable reel;)

SR,

What line weight?

Sg

Need to test a few lines but plan on fishing it as 5/6...sorry for the thread jack.

BEADS RULE!

SG,

Sorry, I couldn't do better. I knew the graphite rod was going to get me a few points knocked off.

Line weight? Gee, I would have guessed about 6 or 7 wt, maybe 8.

What seemed really odd that made me think the guy is full fledged model posing in the middle of the river is they way the line is hanging off the reel. Doesn't quite look right to me.

You know KK, I am not sure...for a 9fter I would love to fish it heavier ie 7/8wt but as its unmarked I am not sure. 7 min left on my ebay auction for a SWEET old reel to pair up w it but I will take you up on that offer as I would like to know the history...its not a $1000 rod but its cherry, was priced great and its mine!

Thread Jack ##3....BEADS RULE!!

Did not get this to be the smoothest rod I have ever casted, just goin back to the days when flyfishing was a simple sport;) Scored that sick reel so I am jacked #4...BEADS!!

I got a goat sticker in ur honor instead...been trying to make good on our bet but you wont even meet up for a beer you biatch.

BEADS

All this talk about beads... If it has feathers and fur it's fly fishing! Apologize for the picture quality... dang camera hasn't worked right since I dropped it (no wonder).



I am sure you've heard about the Egg Sucking Leech.. How about an Egg Crappin' Leech?

Nice dingle berries.

Fly recipe please! (I think that I recognize most of the materials.)

Recipe:

Hook: Size 1 Gammy looped on to 40# Fireline. The tied on to a 35mm Waddington shank. 8mm Trout Bead (color of choice)

Body: Hot pink halographic tinsel. small ball of Fl Pink UV dubbing

Collor/wing: Hot pink Finn Raccoon tied in a dubbing loop and wound (3 or 4-turns followed by 2- turns of marabou

Eyes: I-balz

Head: 50/50 mix of STS Trilobal/Ice Dub

Have fun! The color combinations are endless, but blue is a great color in "glacier waters."

Keith or KK, if you need anymore bamboo info, I'll hook you up with my stepdad. He is HARDCORE into bamboo flyrods and will tell you far more than anyone should ever know. I'd consider him an expert on the subject. He got into restoration of them about 20 years ago and is now building his own from raw bamboo. Tedious but impressive projects.

-AP

Thanks! I agree about the blue. I already have a blue and chartreuse version in mind.

I got your back Tony, I'll be there too next fall...We'll show them how it's done!